"NFA Trust"


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M G
February 19, 2013, 06:57 PM
I'm getting ready to make my first "NFA type" purchase (a suppressor) and have a question I'm hoping someone can help with. I've been reading through some of the forum posts and I see people refer to an "NFA Trust". I live in an area where the Sheriff will not sign and I also want my wife to be covered in case she ever needs to handle/transport the suppressor. So, I intend to create a trust. Is there something special about how the trust needs to be formed? I have been thinking I can create an ordinary trust and have the suppressor purchased under/transferred into the trust. Am I missing something here? What, if anything, is different about an "NFA Trust" other than it is an ordinary trust that happens to contain a class 3 weapon/device - perhaps even among other assets?

Thanks,

Mike

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Domino
February 19, 2013, 07:30 PM
Unless you are a lawyer with extensive knowledge of trusts (which I am guessing your not since you are asking here) I would avoid attempting to make the trust yourself. Find a lawyer who has done NFA trusts in the past to make one for you, it will be a WHOLE lot cheaper than paying thosands in fines and going to prison for having an incorrectly done NFA trust. I am currently getting my NFA Trust written by this guy, but he is local here so you may want to look in your area to ensure they know the law in your state as they vary greatly.

http://bunkerlawgroup.com/

Telekinesis
February 19, 2013, 07:48 PM
Legally as long as the trust is valid, it can hold NFA items (or any property for that matter). I also believe that the ATF is checking trusts for validity when they approve the transfers, so there is a bit of a safety there that they won't allow the transfer into an invalid trust. The thing that sets "NFA Trusts" apart from your typical trust is specific language geared towards NFA items, which is definitely an advantage. If you're setting up a new trust, you should probably look into getting NFA specific language in it, but if you've already got a trust you can use that without any problems.

Aaron Baker
February 19, 2013, 08:42 PM
Just a note that you should not pay an attorney to draft a trust if he is not in the same state as you or specifically tells you that he is licensed to practice in your state. Attorneys are licensed on a state-by-state basis, and state laws on trusts do vary, sometimes widely.

You won't get in trouble yourself if you allow an attorney to engage in the unauthorized practice of law in your state (although it may be a criminal offense for him to do so), but you should be wary of anyone willing to break such a law, because it likely indicates that he is not an attorney worth paying.

I do trusts in Kentucky and no other state, but I do believe there's a Texas attorney that does NFA trusts. Do some googling and you should be able to find his website.

You CAN create a trust yourself, but I recommend paying an attorney. (Of course I would say that--I'm attorney. But seriously, there's a reason we go to law school for three years and have to do continuing legal education courses.)

Aaron

SeanMTX
February 20, 2013, 12:00 AM
Mike,

Talk to Sean Cody out of Houston. He's great and did mine. It's a lot easier than you might think, and Sean does the little things that go a long way. (Like attaching a dollar to activate the trust.)

tepin
February 20, 2013, 11:40 AM
+1 on the Bunker Law Group (http://bunkerlawgroup.com/practice-areas-2/nevada-nfa-class3-classiii-gun-trusts-lawyer/)

He did my NFA Trust for 199.00 in ~April 2012 - Got my SBR stamp last month (didnt mail the paperwork until July for those doing the math). The ATF is now requiring a copy of the trust and all schedules that show the property owned by the trust. They will want to see your soon to be approved suppressor listed as well.

jl1288
February 20, 2013, 11:51 AM
Mike,
by any chance are you a member of Texas Law Shield?
My wife and I are, and they set up my NFA trust for $299. They are based out of Houston also. Michele was great to work with and proofed my form 1 and once she was done with it sent it off to the ATF for me. Good luck, and God Bless

Charger442
February 20, 2013, 01:40 PM
Cole Jennings Bryan did mine out of Ft. Worth for $250.


817-570-9200

TIMC
February 20, 2013, 10:20 PM
Got mine done here, http://texasnfatrust.com/products.htm. Sean was super helpful, answered all of my questions and answered the phone himself whenever I called so I never had to wait. He is a little more expensive than most but well worth it.

ole farmerbuck
February 20, 2013, 10:35 PM
Watching for the future hopefully.

M G
February 21, 2013, 12:12 PM
Thanks for the responses everyone. And thanks for the references to Texas lawyers. If I decide to hire someone, I'll check into them. Not too worried about going to prison, but it might save me some hastle and/or ATF delays on the application.

Ironman
February 21, 2013, 06:53 PM
I made this just for this question. Hope it helps!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDkp4a_f5Rc

SeanMTX
February 22, 2013, 07:18 PM
Got mine done here, http://texasnfatrust.com/products.htm. Shawn was super helpful, answered all of my questions and answered the phone himself whenever I called so I never had to wait. He is a little more expensive than most but well worth it.
That's Sean Cody...the guy who did mine. +1 on his services.

Lonestar11
February 22, 2013, 08:16 PM
Christopher M. Bass
Irving, TX
christopherbasso1@gmail.com

Fast turn around and also holds a FFL

zignal_zero
February 24, 2013, 04:46 PM
I did my own. I did not make it NFA specific because I wanted it versatile (whatever assets I plan on assigning to it) haven't had any problems in roughly a year, but I haven't tried to add things to it yet. I'm about to apply for 3 more stamps, we'll see how it goes I guess :)

Arizona_Mike
February 25, 2013, 01:16 PM
It needs to be a valid trust, not a special "NFA Trust". On the other hand, you can take advantage of the trust mechanism to protect your heirs for being accidental criminals.

I used a Quicken Willmaker 2009 (the last version that did trusts) trust for Arizona and added a section C to Part 7. I am not a lawyer and this is not intended as legal advice, just an example of what I did.

Part 7. Trustee's Management Powers and Duties
A. Powers Under State Law
. . .
B. Specified Powers
. . .
C. Specified Duties
The trustee's duties include, but are not limited to:
1. The duty to determine the fair market value of any firearms, weapons, or accessories that may be trust property.
2. The duty to inquire about any legal disabilities that may prevent beneficiaries from taking lawful possession of any firearms or other weapons that may be trust property. These includes criminal background, metal health history, and state and locality of residence.
3. The duty to assist beneficiaries with the process of lawfully transferring any trust property subject to the provisions of the National Firearms Act and to arrange for safe and legal storage of such property during any interim period.

Mike

M G
February 26, 2013, 11:33 AM
Good point, Mike. Preventing my heirs (and spouse while I'm still living) from being accidental criminals is 50% of the reason I'm going with a trust in the first place. The other 50% being that I'm hearing the local Sheriff won't sign, which is actually a little surprising considering my home county. Instructions for how to handle the can when I pass or become incapacited have been explained and will be in the gun safe.

JustinJ
February 26, 2013, 01:04 PM
I just had one made by TX Law Shield. They charge $300. I know others will do it for cheaper but i also use their other services for CHL holders so decided to just go with them.

If you're buying from The Silencer Shop their page has a list of numerous lawyers who do NFA trusts.

m21black
February 27, 2013, 09:44 AM
The refusal of a local Police Official to sign is a joke. Prior to moving to my current residence where the PD / Resident State Trooper is an idiot, I lived in a town with a Police Chief who was a retired FBI agent. His take on the sign off was nothing more than an attestment that you where who you where reporting yourself to be much like a notary republic. The Chief's take on class 3 items was in his 25 years as an agent legally owned item holders where rarely if ever a problem with law enforcement and where good supporters of police.

jmorris
February 27, 2013, 10:01 AM
Find a lawyer who has done NFA trusts in the past to make one for you, it will be a WHOLE lot cheaper than paying thosands in fines and going to prison for having an incorrectly done NFA trust.What if your lawyer makes a mistake, does he pay thousands in fines and go to prison?

rjrivero
February 27, 2013, 10:32 AM
What if your lawyer makes a mistake, does he pay thousands in fines and go to prison?
Nope. It would be incumbent upon the attorney to fix it. Your Attorney get's paid to make sure it's done right. If it isn't then your attorney must fix it.

You have no such protection on a "diy" trust.

M G
February 27, 2013, 12:57 PM
Yes, you wouldn't have that "protection" with DIY. It would be nonsensical to protect a payment that wasn't made. That being said, I wouldn't consider it a protection to make an attorney do what you already paid them to do. Now, if attorney error makes one immune to ATF fines, then that is another matter.

At any rate, getting a little off the original question, if ATF reviews the trust paperwork, then isn't this reduced to the issue of avoiding delays in the application process? Talking simple trust to own the firearm here. Obviously, this could be complicated depending on the number and type of trustees, how one wants the asset handled down the road, etc, etc.

jmorris
February 27, 2013, 11:00 PM
Nope. It would be incumbent upon the attorney to fix it. Your Attorney get's paid to make sure it's done right. If it isn't then your attorney must fix it.

You have no such protection on a "diy" trust.


My point was that you have no protection on an attorney made trust. If you have problems with either it's all on you at the end of the day.

Fixing things after the problem could also be done by either party, too late by then or not.

jmorris
February 27, 2013, 11:08 PM
Having two attorneys in the immediate family, I understand the "gig" but maybe more helpfull threads/post would be "make sure your attorney does ___."

This does not even bring up the fact that the BATFE and more specifically the NFA branch have changed positions on what is OK or not more than once. So what was once alright is now not, have made me alter new forms but not change the old ones.

I have never seen a case where the NFA approved a transfer on a trust then later prosecuted because of a problem with the trust. I am sure with all of the knowledge on this form if one exists it will be posted.

hentown
March 10, 2013, 03:54 PM
Mike,

Talk to Sean Cody out of Houston. He's great and did mine. It's a lot easier than you might think, and Sean does the little things that go a long way. (Like attaching a dollar to activate the trust.)

I'd be really suspicious of an attorney who attached a dollar to a trust, in order to "activate the trust." That's just sophomoric silliness. Where'd that guy get his law degree? :eek:

Charger442
March 10, 2013, 03:59 PM
Under Texas law, a trust isn't valid until it owns something. I know people who have given their trusts 20 dollar gold peices or just about anything. A dollar bill is small, trivial and easily replaced. But it serves its purpose.

Maybe you should get educated before you criticize.

kimbershot
March 10, 2013, 06:05 PM
yes, trust should have "assets" identified. i am pending on a form 1 build--expect stamp in may according to atf. my trust has 10.00 cash and i will add the my sbr as soon as stamp arrives.

hentown
March 29, 2013, 06:33 PM
Under Texas law, a trust isn't valid until it owns something. I know people who have given their trusts 20 dollar gold peices or just about anything. A dollar bill is small, trivial and easily replaced. But it serves its purpose.

Maybe you should get educated before you criticize.

Requiring "consideration" isn't unique to Texas. ;) It's just sophomoric silliness to attach a dollar bill to a trust. And yes, I do get my advice from real lawyers. AAMOF, I talked with a really well-educated lawyer this very afternoon about whether I should utilize a trust or my already-registered LLC for my next NFA purchase.

Yep, I really should work on my education. Hardehardeharharhar!

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