[coolluke01]

My wife just recently took her carry class and is waiting for the permit in the mail.
I bought her a LCP because it is small and she said she would carry it.

I have been searching and searching for ammo. I can't find any SD rounds anywhere. I would really like to get her the .380 Hornady Critical Defense because of the great penetration.

This is not a case of poor planning but one of my wife deciding to carry at the worst possible time in regard to finding ammo.

If anyone knows where to buy some or has some they will sell please let me know.

If anyone else has a need for SD ammo post your request here and see if we can help each other out.

[ETXhiker]

This will not be a popular answer, but the late, great gun writer/law enforcement officer, Skeeter Skelton (Guns and Ammo, Shooting Times), used to carry his Walther PPK with FMJ ammo. His reasoning was that the cartridge had marginal power and he would rather have penetration in case of heavy clothing, rather than a hollow point that might not expand anyway. YMMV.

[Torian]

Any ammo is better than none. If you are really set on acquiring SD ammo, you will have to pay a premium for it...and I'd recommend going to gunbroker for that.

[rcmodel]

Keep looking.

Any ammo at this point in time is 1000% better then not finding your Designer Brand of ammo.

The .380 is what it is, and if you want penetration, FMJ ball ammo gives the most of it.

rc

[Fremmer]

You might have to look a lot and use whatever you can find.

[Stress_Test]

Midway has some Buffalo Bore .380 in the hardcast flat-nose version, standard pressure. Make SURE you get the standard pressure and not plus P if it's a Ruger LCP.

It won't be cheap but it's better than nothing, and as others have said there's a strong argument for NOT using expanding rounds in a .380. TnOutdoors9's .380 ammo tests are pretty educational. I don't think any of the expanding rounds made it to the 12" minimum in the gel. I think there was ONE that made it close; it was like 11"... maybe the Hornady. Can't remember now.

[rcmodel]

I don't think any of the expanding rounds made it to the 12" minimum in the gel.I happen to be one who doesn't think the FBI 12" minimum applies to most of us in a SD shooting situation.

The FBI & cops have to shoot through car glass, metal doors, and other stuff.


If you choose to carry a .380 for SD instead of a bigger more powerful gun?
Nobody says you only get one shot.

You empty a LCP full of any hollow-points or FMJ's COM in a BG's chest?
He will think of something else more pressing to do then assault you.

Like find a place to fall down, bleed out, & die before the calvary gets there.

And I can assure you, if swarm of JHP opens at all, they will result in more rapid blood loss them a swarm of FMJ in the same places.

rc

[amoszz]

http://ammoseek.com/?gun=handgun&cal=18&type=defense&grains=0&mfg=&keywords=&sortby=cpr&noblanks=on They have the 380 Hornady Critical Defense Zombie edition. Same ammo with a green tip instead of red.

[Stress_Test]

(edit: regarding FMJ vs. HP)

Well from what I've read, it's essentially a crap shoot either way (um, no pun intended).

I've read a story about a cop who was attacked by an amateur hitman at home, who basically chased the cop round and round his home and made multiple hits with .380 FMJ.... cop managed to evade until the gunman bugged out. Cop calls 911, waits for the ambulance, and survives (the cop's gun was in his car and he couldn't get to it!!!)

Another pair of cops stop a van, the driver bails out with a full-auto .380 (also FMJ) and shoot one cop at close range. Some of the rounds go through the side of the cop's armor vest, and he collapses. He didn't survive unfortunately.

I can't think of any specific stories on hollow point failures, but we've all read how HPs can expand early and stop penetrating before doing any vital damage.

So like I said, it's a crap shoot. At some point I think each person just has to make a choice that lets him/her sleep at night and be done with it rather than worry endlessly about what round to use.

[returningfire]

Them there FMJ's will feed slick while some of them JHP's hang up on a pocket pistol's feed ramp. Just something to think about.

[Stress_Test]

Them there FMJ's will feed slick while some of them JHP's hang up on a pocket pistol's feed ramp. Just something to think about.
+1

I'd say that this is one case where reliable function trumps all else (well maybe except shot placement ;) )

[coolluke01]

The Hornady was the round that penetrated to 11". Everything else was only about 8"

I feel FMJ's have too much penetration. I want to be she she won't be dealing with collateral damage from over penetration.

I'm sure I'll have to settle for another HP for a short time, but it never hurts to ask right? lol

I really want to try a full box through it to make sure it functions properly.

It's not the gun I would have picked, I was ready to get her a Glock 26 but I figured I should get a gun that she would carry. Hence the compromise.

[coolluke01]

I just found some about an hour away. I hope to be able to get over there soon. Thanks everyone.

[Fremmer]

Good luck, buy as much as you can so she can practice!

[ArchAngelCD]

This will not be a popular answer, but the late, great gun writer/law enforcement officer, Skeeter Skelton (Guns and Ammo, Shooting Times), used to carry his Walther PPK with FMJ ammo. His reasoning was that the cartridge had marginal power and he would rather have penetration in case of heavy clothing, rather than a hollow point that might not expand anyway. YMMV.
That was a VERY long time ago and at the time true.

With all the new powders and bullets available the SD ammo available in .380 Auto is much better than all those years ago.

[StrawHat]

...I feel FMJ's have too much penetration. I want to be she she won't be dealing with collateral damage from over penetration...


How is this different from the "collateral damage" caused from rounds missing the intended target?

[Deus Machina]

I agree with RC. I don't demand to get 12" out of a round as long as it feeds and functions.

I also believe in 'channel volume' versus penetration, but that's an altogether different discussion.

Hollowpoints may clog up with thick clothing, too. So this time of year in MN, pounce on Critical Defense if you find it, grab Expanding FMJ (interesting rounds!) if it's there, and otherwise FMJ isn't a terrible idea.

I would just reccomend truncated cone versus ball, if you get the choice. It leaves a slightly larger channel IMO, and isn't quite as prone as going through stuff, even if that's a questionable thing in .380.

[PabloJ]

Midway has some Buffalo Bore .380 in the hardcast flat-nose version, standard pressure. Make SURE you get the standard pressure and not plus P if it's a Ruger LCP.

It won't be cheap but it's better than nothing, and as others have said there's a strong argument for NOT using expanding rounds in a .380. TnOutdoors9's .380 ammo tests are pretty educational. I don't think any of the expanding rounds made it to the 12" minimum in the gel. I think there was ONE that made it close; it was like 11"... maybe the Hornady. Can't remember now.
Buffalo Bore Oh Yeh, HOLD ON to that gun if you can. The LCP is very difficult gun to shoot well.

[PabloJ]

I just found some about an hour away. I hope to be able to get over there soon. Thanks everyone.
Please call ahead as most places have ONE or TWO boxes per costumer limits. Driving almost an hour for that would truly suck.:banghead:

[ArchAngelCD]

IMO you will be able to find ammo in small out of the way guns shops, not the bigger package stores and for sure not online. Just look in the phone book for local stores and take a drive one afternoon when you get a chance. You will be surprised what you find...

[coolluke01]

How is this different from the "collateral damage" caused from rounds missing the intended target?
It's not. I don't remember saying it was.

I found a guy locally that will sell me 31 rounds of Federal Hydro Shocks for $20. I've read mixed reviews on how reliably they expand. They got 10.5" of penetration on TnOutdoors video.

[Mayvik]

I started carrying ball in my LCP...that barrel is shoooooort and it's cold here. Also helps that I'm cheap..already had a bunch of FMJ and good HP is pricey - you'll want to get a couple hundred rounds to practice with to ensure it feeds, learn where POI is, etc.

[The_Armed_Therapist]

Many prefer FMJ with smaller calibers. I've often considered them in our Kahr P380, but admittedly always go with the good stuff. I think you're fine. Buy anything you can find, wait it out, and rest assured.

[armedwalleye]

Watch Fleet Farm. The Blaine store seems like the SD loads are more common, and Fleet has not substantially raised their prices. There was some 380 defense loads there this evening when I was there, but can't swear to Hornaday.

[coolluke01]

I found some in Duluth. They set a box aside for me for when we go down on Sunday. They are selling it for $25. It's a little inflated but not terrible.
I'm just going to buy one box of the HP's and a few of the FMJ's (half the price) for pratice for her.
Unfortunately we don't have any fleet farms around here. I've heard good things about them recently.

[Fryerpower]

There were 10 boxes of Winchester silver tip JHP, 85 grain at my local Coop last week. $40 for a box of 50.

I was there buying hay. I had no idea they sold ammo.

Here it is at Midway, out of stock:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/505748/winchester-super-x-ammunition-380-acp-85-grain-silvertip-hollow-point-box-of-50

Jim

[22-rimfire]

I saw some 380 at Walmart yesterday in my area. Seems that not many buy ammunition at that store as I saw a larger quantity of the same about a week before.

[Certaindeaf]

If you want/need penetration the Buffalo Bore hardcast flatpoint will do over thirty inches in gelatin. I cast a 105gr SWC that makes full size holes and penetrates well.
A major manufacturer makes a FMJ flat point that's very reasonable in cost that'll penetrate well and do more damage than a RN.

[Cosmoline]

I happen to be one who doesn't think the FBI 12" minimum applies to most of us in a SD shooting situation.

I don't know about that. There are some REALLY big dudes out there these days, and if your HP is just getting lost in fat it's not going to do much to stop a determined attacker. Even .40 S&W HP's have a spotty track record against the big ones. Personally I'd go with FMJ's in .380.

[Stress_Test]

If I'm remembering right, the 12" in gel doesn't equate to 12" penetration in an actual body. It's just a standard to determine if the round will penetrate deep enough.

[FireInCairo]

This will not be a popular answer, but the late, great gun writer/law enforcement officer, Skeeter Skelton (Guns and Ammo, Shooting Times), used to carry his Walther PPK with FMJ ammo. His reasoning was that the cartridge had marginal power and he would rather have penetration in case of heavy clothing, rather than a hollow point that might not expand anyway. YMMV.
I agree with this sentiment, totally.

[Fremmer]

10 or 15 years ago that sentiment may have been accurate, but hasn't jhp ammo come a long way?

Regardless, you get what you can get and use it.

[Deus Machina]

I don't know about that. There are some REALLY big dudes out there these days, and if your HP is just getting lost in fat it's not going to do much to stop a determined attacker. Even .40 S&W HP's have a spotty track record against the big ones.

If I'm carrying ammunition that can penetrate even my minimum and not hit something vital, I think it's a safe bet that I can outrun the guy.

I mean, you can only charge up the batteries in a Rascal so much.

[buck460XVR]

Regardless of the hype or FBI tests, for SD/HD, I consider reliability and accuracy long before I consider bullet brand or construction. A hit to the blood pump with a FMJ will drop a BG faster than the most expensive JHP that either fails to feed or hits the perp in the shoulder. It never fails to amaze me the folks that make a decision on ammo before they even fire a round of it in their gun. This goes for hunting ammo as well as SD/HD. While I know ammo availability right now is tough and erratic, I would be more concerned with finding enough to practice with and becoming proficient with, than what particular brand or type. The difference in terminal performance in SD/HD ammo is minimal compared to being able to hit what you're pointing at.

[psyopspec]

10 or 15 years ago that sentiment may have been accurate, but hasn't jhp ammo come a long way?

Bonded bullets and better construction have increased the reliability of expansion and weight retention. But .380 is still .380, meaning that even with the advantages of better hollow points not much can be done about penetration. As evidenced by this thread, different shooters have subjective requirements for what they consider to be adequate penetration. There's nothing wrong with that.

After a lot of reading, I chose FMJ for my LCP. My primary reason was that I could easily buy and shoot 200 rounds, which is my minimum before relying on a firearm and a brand of ammunition. It would have been cost-prohibitive to go with more expensive JHPs in my case, and my opinion boiled down to that extra money buying me no particular advantage, and possibly a disadvantage since I put penetration right behind shot placement in what I look for in a defensive gun.

A note of caution on one brand mentioned, I did try the "+P" Buffalo Bore .380 cast rounds. They were a blast to shoot, but were unreliable. In doing further reading, I found that there were no +P standards for .380 and that Ruger does not recommend using higher rated ammunition in the LCP.

Go with a JHP if it makes you more comfortable, but keep in mind that even if there are varying views of penetration vs. expansion, shot placement and reliability should be at the top of the priority list for a defensive gun and ammo. Plan to test whatever you carry to your satisfaction.

ETA: Hey Luke, maybe this would be a fun challenge when it eventually warms up again. Pocket .380 to a 2-liter bottle at 50 or 100 yards! :evil: :D