Tactical Pens


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JShirley
February 19, 2013, 08:36 PM
I have bought, and plan on testing, tac pens from Azan, MTech, S&W, and Master Cutlery. I was wondering which pens members have tried, and what they liked or disliked about each.

Peace,

John

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Sox
February 19, 2013, 10:00 PM
Very cool John, can't wait to see the results. How ya gonna test 'em? I love these things. I would like to find massive "man" sized one that is heavy as hell. This will be cool man.

Thanks,
Dave

Texan Scott
February 19, 2013, 10:11 PM
Ideal field test? Give a bunch of 'em to Colorado State University coeds...

JShirley
February 19, 2013, 10:31 PM
Dave,

Balance, impact on targets, writing ability, comfort in hand while striking, and ease of finding refills, I think. Other ideas? :)

John

hmphargh
February 20, 2013, 12:48 AM
I say throw in a non-"tactical" pen. Something like a metal Cross Classic or Townsend.

JShirley
February 20, 2013, 01:20 AM
Yeah, I'd considered that. Good idea. :)

Cosmoline
February 20, 2013, 01:22 AM
I've got a steel benchmade. It's so heavy I never forget it after putting it down. So I haven't lost it unlike every other pen. And it's very useful as a can opener and at prying open oysters in the park.

glistam
February 20, 2013, 09:33 AM
I'm partial to the County Comm "embassy pen" line. I'd call them "semi-tactical" because they were made for the military but were not specifically designed to be weaponized. Rock solid pens that use fisher space pen refills. Downside is unscrewing the lid is hard with one hand, and sometimes it unscrews in your pocket.

Tirod
February 20, 2013, 10:22 AM
I've tried the executive Sharpy and mods to ink pens to swap out the plastic parts. Overall, it hasn't been working in retail. It's another pen that I've got money in, which is commonly borrowed and all too frequently kept. Not loaning it is a serious breach of etiquette, too, which presents sociological flags. It's already hard enough not loaning the clipped knife in my pocket - but I'm not letting a Boker Magnum or SnG walk out the door for someone to pry a fuse or turn a screw with.

Tactical pens that look like they could survive an artillery strike seem to be the fashion, Kershaw had a combo kit this last Xmas. Once I got over the cool factor, I decided they are too high profile and an aberration, like four wheel drive trucks with raptor tooth grilles.

In the spirit of testing, I'd hammer them thru 2x4's, car hoods, or pick up some calf skulls and post the pics. Me, I'd just grab the ink pen I do have and use it on a soft target - but I would also be in such a clueless state that an aggressive predator with ill intent was close at hand, I might not be able to do anything in time.

I'm out shopping, wonder how many I can "borrow" for testing? Hmm. Haven't ever seen anyone with one, might present a difficulty . . .

JShirley
February 20, 2013, 10:49 AM
Well, I also tried to find pens someone could actually get away with carrying...since that's the supposed intent! :)

readyeddy
February 20, 2013, 10:55 AM
I like the Schrade Second Generation Tactical Pen. It's large and tough enough for defensive use, has a secure screw cap, doesn't look like a weapon, and is a decent writer.

There's basically two types of tact pens: caps and twist. Caps are good so long as they are secure. Some caps are snap on and fit loosely. Not good while being used hard. Twist pens are okay but need to be twisted tight with the writing tip exposed, otherwise the pen is loose.

The embassy pen is solid, but a little short.

dayhiker
February 20, 2013, 12:25 PM
Well, I also tried to find pens someone could actually get away with carrying...since that's the supposed intent!



Not "tactical"....but ..


http://www.amazon.com/Ballpoint-Pen-Stainless-PAR13372-Category/dp/B0007USHWQ/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1361381003&sr=8-8&keywords=parker+pens+jotter

JShirley
February 20, 2013, 12:36 PM
Eddy,

I think these are all twist.

DH,

Look like quality, but not very grippy.

dayhiker
February 20, 2013, 12:51 PM
DH,

Look like quality, but not very grippy.

I agree but I have small hands, ;)

Icepick grip works for me. :)

Otherwise I smash them with my Maglite XL50.

cja245
February 20, 2013, 01:30 PM
I REALLY like the looks of the Rick Hinderer investigator pen, but I'm too cheap to spend that much on a pen.

I had one of countycomm's embassy pens and it was ok. I was a bit to thick for me though.

readyeddy
February 20, 2013, 02:02 PM
Here's a Tom Anderson twist pen. I like it but it's a little loose when the tip is retracted.

http://www.amazon.com/Tom-Anderson-TA-93BK-Tactical-Tatical/dp/B004D80VM2/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

This a the Schrade with a cap, albeit a twist cap.

http://www.amazon.com/Tactical-Pen-2nd-Generation-Stainless/dp/B0047LUFTE/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

conw
February 20, 2013, 02:21 PM
S&W M&P, this one:

http://shellbacktactical.com/sandwsmithandwessonmandptacticalpenblack-swpenmpbk.aspx

Pointy but not sharp, non-twist lid (friction... that's the one weak point; the friction fit wears down after about a year, and it loosens, but I've solved that with a thin coat of clear nail polish inside the cap), takes Parker (and therefore Fisher Space Pen) refills.

I painted the clip black to cover up the Smith & Wesson part and haven't looked back since.

JShirley
February 20, 2013, 02:43 PM
Eddy,

I did get the Tom Anderson (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004D80VM2/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B004D80VM2&linkCode=as2&tag=wanderin00-20) (Master Cutlery) pen.

readyeddy
February 20, 2013, 03:31 PM
The Schrade Second Gen and the County Comm Embassy Pen are the most "normal" looking pens that I've found. The Schrade, however, has that pointy end that is not necessary in my opinion. And my steel Embassy Pen is too heavy and a little short.

I wish Schrade would come out with a third generation pen that is the same size as the second gen but with a straight plain barrel.

hso
February 20, 2013, 04:57 PM
I've handled several of the S&W and only one MTech. My common concern about them is that they don't fill the hand sufficiently for my liking, but I'm used to the Timberline. The MTech had a plastic tip and wasn't comfortable in the hand. The S&W was pretty slender compared to the others.

Here's an earlier thread where some of them were discussed. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=655645

JShirley
February 20, 2013, 05:07 PM
Initially, I liked the S&W for the same reasons I disliked it: the one I bought is a "penlight", and though I thought that meant it has a pen built in, it doesn't! I haven't had time to thoroughly T&E these yet, but it's looking like all the rest partially unscrew in the process of opening them.

Since the S&W doesn't actually have a pen, I thought that might mean an overall stronger platform. Unfortunately, the light portion is twist on/off, which means that the user just unscrews the back instead of the front of the light. :banghead:

steveno
February 20, 2013, 06:14 PM
for those that fly a lot and also carry these tactical pens , what does tsa have to say about them? just curious

I have always thought that the Cross pens were pretty strong and I don't think that tsa would pay much attention to them.

conw
February 20, 2013, 07:10 PM
The two or three times I hopped on a plane with mine it was carefully placed into my carry-on bag. I did this knowing it could get confiscated at the discretion of TSA.

I would absolutely expect it to get confiscated if it was on my body or loose in one of the sorting bins...

Geno
February 20, 2013, 07:16 PM
I have a stainless Benchmade. I like the heft. By the way, it write really nice. It's expensive enough, I never loan it out, so I'll never lose it. Problem is, it's so pretty I'd hate to ever use it, say to break out a car window or some such thing.

Looking forward to your test results!

Geno

hso
February 20, 2013, 08:12 PM
I've flown for years carrying the Timberline pen and I find it gets no attention if it is in my laptop case in the pen holder beside the flashlight. OTOH if I leave it loose or in a jacket pocket it gets looked at all the time and I have to tell the TSA officer "The cap pulls straight off, its a pen." It has made it through US security each time, but I've lost it to international security about half the time (and had to replace it).

dayhiker
February 20, 2013, 08:51 PM
I would absolutely expect it to get confiscated if it was on my body or loose in one of the sorting bins...

It has made it through US security each time, but I've lost it to international security about half the time (and had to replace it).

So why carry a "tactical" pen as opposed to a Cross or Parker? If you can't have it on you, what's the point of having it?

JShirley
February 20, 2013, 10:52 PM
hso is saying he checks it in his stowed luggage, and puts it back on after the flight.

Gordon
February 21, 2013, 12:01 AM
If I had to use a tactical pen I would want a rather long and slim on the sharp end one about 6" long with a flat rear surface. For last ditch defense the only move I have perfected is to jab into the eye with one hand and open palm strike the back end. I have never tried this with a pen but have for years with chop sticks. I have a couple sets of tactical chop sticks, one in titanium and one in carbon composite. To me a set of chop sticks is much more effective than a stubby pen. I'm open to see what a pen can do tho. I don't believe in nerve plexus pain compliance use tho, too old to wrassle anymore!
guess this one might work for me
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0056DFYBG/ref=gno

Up date: Just bought on Amazon a Night Armor Tactical Pen with Built-in Flashlight which looks like it might be handy and seems fairly well designed. I see people drill out the tip to accept Fisher style refills. I like it has a retractable tip and the flat ended LED detaches and has the clip on it!

Ehtereon11B
February 21, 2013, 04:00 AM
I like that Nightarmor pen. Then again I am all about multiple use items, ever since I was a kid. My pocket flashlight doubles as a weapon light. I have lighters (when I used to smoke) that have either flashlights or even USB drives. My watch has built has a built in compass, altimeter, thermometer. Pocket knife has a window breaker...you get the idea.

I agree with throwing in some of the most common non tactical pens. Partly just for laughs but also to do a serious comparison compared to even the worst tactical pen. For example, spend 10 cents and get a Bic white pen, then a few more cents to get a Bic clear pen (similar to the one used in the first Bourne movie). It would be like the Mythbusters of tactical pens.

hso
February 21, 2013, 07:12 AM
It goes in my laptop case as carry-on instead of checked. If I have checked bags I have a couple of knives in my shave kit.

As soon as I approach the TSA screening station I start emptying my pockets into a zippered pocket on my laptop bag. Everything goes in except the one ID and boarding pass that the TSA need to see. That includes my pen. As soon as I'm through the scanner and putting things back in my pockets the pen goes back in place. If I put the pen in one of the pen slots beside the small flashlight I've never had anyone in the US look at it. OTOH, I've had the foreign equivalent of TSA spot the pen and examine it and half the time they've taken it claiming "You could stab someone with this.".:rolleyes:

bikerdoc
February 21, 2013, 08:44 AM
I cant contribute much as I do not own a "tactical pen."

Within the framework of my own use of force continuum The pen is pretty low except in gun free zones when it is second behind my cane.
My choices are the lowly Bic or Zebra. Like Gordon said I am to old to wrestle or use pain compliance. If I lose my cane I am all about stabbing eyeballs.

conw
February 21, 2013, 09:55 AM
Like hso I am inclined to just stick it in my laptop bag/briefcase and it goes through the X-ray machine, then I put it back on when I put my shoes back on. Time spent without pen is about 15 minutes max.

I don't care that much about it as an "NPE weapon" per se; I like having a pen and I like having a high-line option that is less lethal than a knife or gun for my daily life.

In the vanishingly rare chance that I needed to do some sort of fighting on a plane, I wouldn't feel very naked without it anyway, but that's partly an advantage of ongoing training efforts, youth, and physical size, and my personal perspective on the threat profile/likely occurrences on a plane. My intent in having a pen on a plane is mostly just for the normal uses of a pen.

It's also nice to have after disembarking into the areas surrounding airports. Sometimes it's necessary to catch a limo or taxi before one can fully Batman up again.

Inazone
February 21, 2013, 04:55 PM
I bought my wife a Night Armor tactical penlight before she deployed overseas, since she won't be able to carry a sidearm or even a proper knife where she's stationed. She likes it, which is all I ask. Of course, I'd feel better if she could have her M9, but it is what it is.

capcyclone
February 22, 2013, 06:11 PM
I purchased the S&W Tactical Pen for about $20 on Amazon around Christmas 2011. It quickly became my daily pen - it has some heft, which I like. The refills are sort of expensive, but it does write well. In a pinch, it would prove useful for hand to hand combat.

Heck, since I've had it I haven't had one single incident - so it must be working - right? :rolleyes:

conw
February 22, 2013, 08:54 PM
That's the so called M&P I own also. Search for Parker refills on a site like Amazon and it isn't that costly especially if you get a knockoff version. Fisher Space Pen refills for parkers also work.

JShirley
February 22, 2013, 09:14 PM
I didn't pay enough attention, and actually got the S&W Tactical Penlight (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0056DG43I/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B0056DG43I&linkCode=as2&tag=wanderin00-20)- which is just a light, no pen! But I think I may get the S&W (thought probably not in time for this test).

When I was checking what I paid for everything on Amazon, I discovered the Azan Defender (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009FBVWIE/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B009FBVWIE&linkCode=as2&tag=wanderin00-20) and Guardian (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009FBVGDU/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B009FBVGDU&linkCode=as2&tag=wanderin00-20) "Chrome" (color, pretty sure it's not actual chrome) have dropped to $4.99 with free shipping. Of these two, the Defender looks pretty overt, with a spike on the end, while the Guardian is sturdy, but has no inherent "tacticality": the bezel is blunt, but has no projecting crennelations, just longitudinal grooves on the end.

I haven't started the actual target testing yet, so I can't vouch for their hardiness, but hopefully that'll happen tomorrow. I'm already at 1100 words...:scrutiny:

The Defender and Guardian are the top 2 in this photo.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=180225&d=1361585615

John

Deltaboy
February 22, 2013, 09:54 PM
I say throw in a non-"tactical" pen. Something like a metal Cross Classic or Townsend.
According to the former state police instructor a cross pen is a tactical pen. That is what Al DeBeers taught us in his street survival class at UALR back in the 1980's .

jbkebert
February 22, 2013, 11:56 PM
I have a Fury first line pen that I generally carry. It writes very well a feels perfect in its balance in the hand. The space pen refills are a little on the pricey side but other than that I am happy.

The crown end of this pen is stupid sharp and I don't know how many times I got bit reaching in my front pocket to get the pen. Now I just carry it in my right back pocket clipped in. Have carried it for about 4 months now and have struck several boards and a rubber horse mat. This pen writes well and could really ruin someones day quick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18LwwIYEK8U

hmphargh
February 23, 2013, 12:07 AM
According to the former state police instructor a cross pen is a tactical pen. That is what Al DeBeers taught us in his street survival class at UALR back in the 1980's .
Yea, I've heard that too, which is why I suggested testing one against the pens that are marketed as tactical pens.

Double Naught Spy
February 23, 2013, 11:19 AM
There are also the Uzi line of tactical pens. They use (or used to use) "space pen" writing cartridges in them. Looks like now they just have Parker brand cartridges in them.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_sabc?url=search-alias%3Daps&pageMinusResults=1&suo=1361636137367#/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_7?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=uzi%20tactical%20pen&sprefix=uzi%20tac%2Caps%2C184&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Auzi%20tactical%20pen

Sgt_R
February 23, 2013, 11:23 AM
Zebra F-701



http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B002L6RB80

lemaymiami
February 23, 2013, 12:57 PM
When I saw my first "tactical" pen being offered -can't remember if it was in a catalogue, SOF magazine (I'm an old guy), or at my local police supply house.... I thought about it for a bit and decided to pass.

I long ago decided that I was an improviser, in every sense of the word, and would react or pre-empt depending on the situation and the need. Years and years later I heard the "it's not the arrow, it's the Indian" phrase and that pretty much says it for me. With the right attitude you can be stripped naked and still be a real problem for anyone that figures you're not armed or just plain defense-less....

Hope I never need that sort of stuff ever again.

Captains1911
February 23, 2013, 01:01 PM
for those that fly a lot and also carry these tactical pens , what does tsa have to say about them? just curious

I have always thought that the Cross pens were pretty strong and I don't think that tsa would pay much attention to them.
I have been through a few times recently went an UZI tactical pen in my carry on, TSA didn't blink an eye, they were too focused on my liquid toiletries, and the sun glasses i forgot to take off my head before going though the full body scan.

JShirley
February 23, 2013, 05:15 PM
I'm in testing. I didn't have a Cross, but used a Pilot pen as a control. Wouldn't want to get stabbed in the arms, hands, face, or neck with any pen. The S&W Wesson was the obvious winner of the penetration test, as expected.

hso
February 23, 2013, 07:52 PM
I used a standard #2 pencil to get a guy to back off once. Left a "tattoo" from the lead on his hand. He didn't think that was "fair" at all, but I didn't think the difference in height and weight was fair either so I guess it all evened out.

JShirley
February 23, 2013, 09:40 PM
Okay, the test is finished. One of the big challenges was finding a reasonable target that would move like people do. I finally went with coffee cans wrapped with cardboard, covered with flannel. People don't just stand still while being hit, and especially when face and arms are primary targets, I wanted a target that moved. I looped the flannel around a 4' phenolic rod inserted into a planter.

I absolutely wouldn't get the Azan Defender, with its Spear of Destiny penetrating tip. It's too obviously weaponized, too long, and I think users will hurt themselves with it if they use it long enough.

If I was handing out small defensive devices to female friends that worked late shifts in places I thought they could get away with it, the S&W Tactical Penlight is a AAA flashlight with a spike on one end. For $4.99 with free shipping right now, the chrome Azan Guardian seems like a best buy. All of these pens use the same ink cartridges.

Full review at Shooting Reviews (http://www.shootingreviews.com/tactical-pen-test/).

John

Cdigman
February 23, 2013, 10:26 PM
http://www.hardcorehardware.com.au/weapons/twi01.php Looks interesting...I have used the Zebra F-701, and I really liked it.

kBob
February 25, 2013, 07:53 AM
Mt first "tactical pen" experience was in middle schhol. Right after forced bussing started a pair of racist of different races got into a dispute after a breif game of the dozens.

When things settled down a #2 pencil of your standard cedar construction was sticking from one's forearm.

Wouldn't say a five pound roast make a more reasonable test target for a stabbing tool? Maybe even a rack of ribs?

-kBob

Mp7
February 25, 2013, 09:15 AM
a classic "Rotring" metal pen would be nice for comparison.

Itīs a classic that doesnt look like some redneck kubotan designer made it :-)

JShirley
February 25, 2013, 09:59 AM
Bob, 5-lb roasts and ribs aren't much like arms. Stabbing someone's ribs may hurt them, but a blow or stab to their arms or hands is (1) less extension, so safer for the defender, (2) more likely to keep you safe if you keep them from touching you (preferred) or lead to their releasing you.

It's easy to think that we are made of meat, so therefore meat is a good simulant of effect on humans. Sure, if I had an animal that had been killed within minutes of the test, there would be some similarity: otherwise, there isn't. Time and temperature changes make little similarity between meat and live human tissue.

John

Deltaboy
February 25, 2013, 10:49 PM
Zebra F-701



http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B002L6RB80
I ran a test and the zebra 701 will go in a 1/2 in a roast with dress pants leg over it. I set it up to represent thigh strick.

Texan Scott
April 10, 2013, 11:01 PM
Thanks again to JShirley for this review! It definitely provided me with the points for consideration in making my purchase decision... received mine today:

http:// http://images.knifecenter.com/thumb/1500x1500/knifecenter/smith-and-wesson-knives/images/SWPENBK.jpg

http://www.knifecenter.com/item/SWPENBK

Absolutely enamored with it. Good prices and quick, trouble-free service with this vendor, as well.

ETA: In addition to being a fine writing instrument, I like the fact that the cap screws on securely and that the striking end is not the writing point. This allows instant accessibility for use AND protected, tip-up carry to keep it from ruining my shirts.

JShirley
April 10, 2013, 11:09 PM
Good deal. Let us know how you feel about it in a few weeks.

I've been carrying a Fred Perrin pen most often, recently, but the ink cartridge needs to be replaced.

TimboKhan
April 11, 2013, 11:32 PM
John, I saw this far to late to comment, but I have used the s&w pen for a couple of years now. I have never used it with true serious intent, but I have done two serious restraints with it at work to prove a concept to some non-believers. I have nothing but love for it, plus the price was decent. I leave it at work, but it is in my shirt pocket every second of my workday.

Honestly, if I really needed to defend myself at work, the pen would be my first choice over the knife. There are a lot of reasons for that, but the biggest one is I really don't want to have to cut someone up, along with legal problems related to carrying a knife at work. I get away with it, but strictly speaking I am not supposed to carry anything larger than a little penknife. Also, and perhaps naively, I think my wrestling background, though many years in the past, lends itself more readily to pen as opposed to knife "combatives". 16years of being a mat rat gives me a high comfort level with applying pain compliance techniques, you see.

JShirley
April 11, 2013, 11:43 PM
Timbo, you're using Etta Koppo techniques. I'd want to use them instead of a knife, in your situation, too.

jackdaddycustoms
April 12, 2013, 12:01 AM
i'm interested in this just cause it looks kinda cool, but i'm a newbie to tactical pens... so could someone explain what they are used to do??? other than write of course. what makes them tactical other than that they are heavy?

TimboKhan
April 12, 2013, 12:03 AM
Etta Koppo, you say? Google, here I come!

JShirley
April 12, 2013, 12:06 AM
Jack, follow my link in post 46.

jackdaddycustoms
April 12, 2013, 12:26 PM
thanks, that helps. should have went their before asking :o

JShirley
April 12, 2013, 01:08 PM
If it was a simpler answer, I just would've answered it directly. My favorite small defensive implements are still flashlights.

10mm Mike
April 12, 2013, 02:16 PM
According to the former state police instructor a cross pen is a tactical pen. That is what Al DeBeers taught us in his street survival class at UALR back in the 1980's .

I took Judo with Al Demers in the early 2000's when I was at UALR. He's a great guy. Always had a hilarious story to tell.

I have a S&W tactical pen (the one blue one with the flutes along the body) and its pretty nice. I don't actually carry it or have any plans on using it in a "tactical" fashion - it just sits on my desk at work all day. I just wanted a nicer metal pen with some heft that could be easily refilled. It could probably do some damage if you jabbed someone in the ribs with it, but I'd rather throw proper strikes and grapple if it came to a physical confrontation, rather that trying to poke someone with a pen.

JShirley
April 12, 2013, 02:18 PM
Well, that's just it. Poking someone in the ribs is the wrong way to use one of these defensively.

USAF_Vet
April 12, 2013, 05:25 PM
I've recently gotten a nice thick Cross pen. Can anyone recommend how to use it as a self defense item? Every bit of info helps.

jackdaddycustoms
April 12, 2013, 11:53 PM
thanks to you guys i just got one. i was out looking for ammo and came across a kershaw tactical pen. i got it, now i just have to remember to keep it on me. i don't usually carry pens around, and when i do, i seem to loose them. we'll see how it goes.

kim breed
April 13, 2013, 10:08 AM
best defense is a better offense. let the situation dictate the area of the strike. A no2 pencil in the eye stops the fight quickly. strike what ever presents itself. I prefer a steel chair or a heavy beer mug.

JShirley
April 13, 2013, 11:52 AM
strike whatever presents itself

Great concise summation. We tend to get caught up in a false mentality that defenders need to inflict some mortal blow.

NO.

Our goal is escaping the situation with honor. A pen through the back of an assailant's hand may accomplish that. Whether our attacker lives or dies is not our concern or goal: we just want to go home to our family with a clear conscience.

John

TimboKhan
April 13, 2013, 12:01 PM
We tend to get caught up in a false mentality that defenders need to inflict some mortal blow.

For whatever it is worth, I have always guarded against this false mentality, almost entirely because the last thing I want to do is to have to beat/stab/slash/pummel someone to death. Having had some experience with that, I can truthfully now say that if I am fighting with anything other than a gun, my only goal is escape, not Willis-Level destruction. Could I inflict a mortal wound on someone with a knife or a pen or with thunder and lightning? I know I could, but deep in my soul I just don't want to. Pain is temporary, death is forever.

That isn't to say that with a gun I consider myself Killy McKillshot, but it is to say that if the situation demands pulling a trigger, the likeliehood of a mortal wound being inflicted is considerably higher. It is also to say that if I am shooting, escape was not an option for whatever reason that may be.

JShirley
April 13, 2013, 12:21 PM
I've shown my tiny anti-rape knife to friends, and had them complain that they probably couldn't penetrate the rib cage with it. :rolleyes:

The goal is to escape, not annihilate the enemy. That's ego talking, the need to punish anyone who dares touch you.

John

conw
April 13, 2013, 12:50 PM
But the converse of that is that in some situations you might need to create a greater degree of incapacitation or the situation might otherwise not fit into that envelope of pain as opposed to "death." While most knife stoppages may be "psychological" it's hard to say to what degree you need to cause physical damage to trigger that reaction.

I don't like to do the whole internet legal analysis double-backflip thing but I also would warn people against the false comfort of utilizing a categorical deadly force method (knife) in a situation where you may later find yourself stating that the intent was to effect escape via pain as opposed to stop the threat at all costs due to fear for your life.

Put differently I think (not know) that any dichotomy between a gun and knife existing in the mind of someone who might find himself defending with one or the other should not be seen as one dependent on the severity of the situation and with one option more "legally desirable," but instead both are worst-case options you access when you have no other option, and the circumstances dictate which one insofar as one tool may solve that particular problem better.

The way I train to use a tac-pen puts it uncomfortably close to lethal or maiming so I don't consider it a less-lethal or more legally-desirable option, personally.

Just my 2 cents.

JShirley
April 13, 2013, 01:05 PM
Okay, you'll notice I never suggested pain as a defense. I have suggested that whether the attacker lives or dies is besides the point- exactly as I've said in several threads assuming defense with a firearm. Lethal strikes with manual weapons usually require greater commitment than strikes to limbs. This commitment is both mental and physical. Closer is generally speaking more hazardous. Putting something through an attacker's hand is obviously more than just pain compliance, and it's safer to a defender than being 3 feet closer so you can attack the neck, temple, or eyes.

John

conw
April 13, 2013, 04:39 PM
Re pain, I was addressing you and Timbo, probably should have quoted and replied more selectively. Sorry about that.

I agree with what you say about hands vs eyes/temple. A particularly good training class I took encouraged "taking what you can get" which is often the hand, but a solid hit on the hand can certainly open up the face as a viable target.

JShirley
April 13, 2013, 04:52 PM
a solid hit on the hand can certainly open up the face as a viable target

Sure. I'm just encouraging everyone to remember we're not trying for "total war" here. The goal is to escape. If a strike to the periphery accomplishes that, well and good. If the attacker's doesn't retreat, then it may be time to go "all in".

John

TimboKhan
April 13, 2013, 07:03 PM
Well, I did say that I didn't want to go all in, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't. As mentioned, I have a little experience with this kind of thing, and while escape is my primary goal, if it becomes him or me, any potential misgivings about going further kind of disappear. I didn't mean to imply that I would never do it, but if I can use my considerable size and a certain willingness to inflict pain that exists when I want to escape a situation to hurt someone bad enough that I can run away, thats preferable.

hso
April 13, 2013, 07:07 PM
I prefer a steel chair or a heavy beer mug.

Or a glass beer bottle capped with your thumb? :evil:



I've been carrying the Timberline LCP for a long time. It is of a size to use like a kubotan and that's the reason I like it.

Deltaboy
April 13, 2013, 08:02 PM
I agree I just want to go home to my family.Killing someone is not high on my list of things to do but I am prepared and willing to do it. Tac pens are just another tool in the Toolbox.

hso
April 14, 2013, 01:39 PM
The goal is to escape, not annihilate the enemy. That's ego talking, the need to punish anyone who dares touch you.

You know your friends better than we might presume to, but in the use of force continuum some people will not be made to break off or be incapacitated by anything more than great injury. Small tools required proportionally greater skill to help ensure your safety. conw and you and I would be more successful with your small knife or a Bic pen or kubaton because we've trained in how to apply their limited injury potential to the optimum use. If the folks that have commented on Sam's knife have equivalent training then they're either bloodthursty or they're envisioning a worst case PCP/Meth/Prison Sifu opponent that has to be destroyed to gain escape.

JShirley
April 14, 2013, 02:05 PM
...or they were raped 25 years ago. :( But you'll notice several posts in this thread about penetrating the ribs, when that should be far down the list of best targets.

John

hso
April 14, 2013, 10:04 PM
Far from a best target in trying to effect an escape. I'm not sure any pen of practical carry size would be of able to serve. Too short to hit vital organs so there's not a lot of point focusing on using a pen for that purpose.

Texan Scott
April 15, 2013, 12:17 AM
My thought (just from my perspective when working at a service counter) is that anyone coming OVER the counter/ THROUGH the service window will necessarily be presenting the backs of their hands and tops of their shoulder sockets as obvious strike targets... and that S&W pen will hurt a lot more than a Swingline stapler.

conw
April 15, 2013, 09:38 AM
I think one advantage of a heavy, fairly sharp "tactical" pen is that if you carry it around your collar area, you can access it in a very compressed position and it's hard for someone to interfere with the "drawstroke."

Think about your typical reaction if someone were to poke toward your eyes with their fingers (a little kid, or something along those lines) - you might blink, turn your head away, or try to smack the fingers out of the way.

Now imagine if you were 12-18" from someone and had limited options for whatever reason (can't access other weapons, don't have them, may not be confident in your H2H skills at that range, etc). If you can access a pen around your collar area, you can deliver some rapid-fire jabs in the direction of their face - I like a reverse grip for this.

The idea is not to maim, disfigure, or kill them; it's to get that 2-second reaction from taking them off guard, just like with pepper-spray. From there you may have opened up other ways of delivering some more damaging blows, or perhaps an avenue of escape.

The use of things like this, IMO, is dependent on a sense of timing and realistic expectations as to the effect. If you think you will drop them with one attempted jab to the face you are probably wrong. There may not even be much of an effect. But you can probably get just enough of a flinch/surprise reaction to follow it up with something more useful, and the pen lets you target and generate a reasonable amount of pinpoint force at very close distances fairly effectively.

Gordon
April 15, 2013, 07:36 PM
Very succinct Conwic !:cool:

hso
April 16, 2013, 11:16 AM
I keep mine clipped to the placket of my shirt right on the midline just above the nipple line. That way it doesn't matter if I'm wearing a pocketed shirt or not (I almost always am wearing a "polo" shirt or full button up).

Deltaboy
April 16, 2013, 09:35 PM
I think one advantage of a heavy, fairly sharp "tactical" pen is that if you carry it around your collar area, you can access it in a very compressed position and it's hard for someone to interfere with the "drawstroke."

Think about your typical reaction if someone were to poke toward your eyes with their fingers (a little kid, or something along those lines) - you might blink, turn your head away, or try to smack the fingers out of the way.

Now imagine if you were 12-18" from someone and had limited options for whatever reason (can't access other weapons, don't have them, may not be confident in your H2H skills at that range, etc). If you can access a pen around your collar area, you can deliver some rapid-fire jabs in the direction of their face - I like a reverse grip for this.

The idea is not to maim, disfigure, or kill them; it's to get that 2-second reaction from taking them off guard, just like with pepper-spray. From there you may have opened up other ways of delivering some more damaging blows, or perhaps an avenue of escape.

The use of things like this, IMO, is dependent on a sense of timing and realistic expectations as to the effect. If you think you will drop them with one attempted jab to the face you are probably wrong. There may not even be much of an effect. But you can probably get just enough of a flinch/surprise reaction to follow it up with something more useful, and the pen lets you target and generate a reasonable amount of pinpoint force at very close distances fairly effectively.
Well said : You have to be willing to inflict pain in order to escape or win the fight. I am teaching my 14 year old daughter this hard fact of life; That there are bad and some crazy people that you might have to hurt or kill so you can return home.

InkEd
April 16, 2013, 11:58 PM
How about a Zebra F-701?

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