Off the wall powder purchase.


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BBQJOE
February 20, 2013, 06:47 PM
I've got primers I bought the minute Bronco Bama was elected the first time.
I've got a fair amount of brass.
An old pro is going to school me on casting bullets real soon.
I have a few lbs of powder.

I load .44, 9mm, and .38 exclusively.

Normally I stick with Unique, win231, or power pistol.

My wife made her semi monthly 100 mi round trip to town today.
She called and asked if there was anything I needed. I suggested maybe she stop at the gun store, (our LEO supply joint) and JFTH of it, see if they had any of our usual powders.
Strangely enough, she said she had the same thought earlier.

She just called and said no go on our normal menu, but he had something else. He told her it would be just fine for our calibers, it was just a little faster.

I asked what it was. I could tell she was in a hurry. She said she didn't know. And instead of putting her through the paces of getting me the info and me looking it up in "the bible" I just told her to grab a few pounds if he had it.

Given the current shortages on damn near everything, I figure at this point, anything in the stockpile can be adapted or worked with.

I hope I made the right decision. Otherwise, I suppose I could sell it.

I do feel like doing a happy dance though.:p

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klcmschlesinger
February 20, 2013, 06:49 PM
What was it?

BBQJOE
February 20, 2013, 06:56 PM
What was it?
Don't know. She isn't home yet.:D

Powderman
February 20, 2013, 06:58 PM
OK...any news yet? There are a few powders I have seen on the Alliant website that do look promising.

tightgroup tiger
February 20, 2013, 07:04 PM
What was it?


Ok, How bout now

BBQJOE
February 20, 2013, 07:40 PM
She came home with IMR 700X.
My Lee Bible places it at the same burn rate as win 231, so I'd say she did alright.
And bizarrely enough, the price of 14oz's @ $20, is just about what I paid over 4 years ago.

twofifty
February 20, 2013, 07:43 PM
A very good powder for the 9 - your wife did well.

rcmodel
February 20, 2013, 07:50 PM
My Lee Bible places it at the same burn rate as win 231,Then you need a new bible.

700X (#8) is faster then Bullseye (#9) on the burn rate chart.

W-231 is (#23), just slightly slower then Unique (#25).

rc

MADDOG
February 20, 2013, 07:50 PM
I bought some Royal Scot D a while ago. It's working very well in my 9mm cast loads. I wonder what your getting.

Ramone
February 20, 2013, 07:54 PM
I've used 700X for 9mm and .45ACP, and been pleased with the results.

I did find it a bit dirty in light loads, but fine in normal to hot loads.

ljnowell
February 20, 2013, 07:59 PM
700x has made some of my most accurate 45 acp loads. It doesnt meter worth a darn, but its a good clean burning powder.

BBQJOE
February 20, 2013, 08:27 PM
Then you need a new bible.

700X (#8) is faster then Bullseye (#9) on the burn rate chart.

W-231 is (#23), just slightly slower then Unique (#25).

rc
I'm going to have to beg to differ with you sir.
Both my Lee, and my Lyman show bullseye as faster than 231.
700x is also slower than bullseye, with unique being slowest of all mentioned.

But hey, both could be wrong. Lyman lists 1 as the fastest, and 97 as the slowest.
Bullseye is at 3, 700x is at 7, 231 at 18, unique is at 20.

Lee says bullseye is at 2, 231 at 11, 700x at 12, and unique at 22.

rcmodel
February 20, 2013, 08:51 PM
I just looked at the Hodgdon burn rate chart, as they are the IMR 700X vendors who sell it and also W231.
I kind figure they should know if anyone does.

But regardless of who's burn rate chart you look at?
700X is much faster then W231.

Not the same burn rate as you stated your Lee book stated.

rc

FROGO207
February 20, 2013, 09:01 PM
I have kegs of 700-X and it does well for me in 9MM and 45 ACP also.

jcwit
February 20, 2013, 09:11 PM
One of the largest burn rate charts out there

http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html

Bullseye #6 on the chart
231 Win #26 on the chart
700X IMR is #28 on the chart

Now the accuracy of the chart?????????????????????

Hey, I read it on the net, but I'm not a French Model, Bonjour

And yes hodgdon does rate 700X one step faster than Bullseye and they put 231 way down to #29????????????????????

rcmodel
February 20, 2013, 09:16 PM
Why is it then, that any reloading data you look at shows a Max load of 700X being less grains then a Max load of W231 with the same bullet??

If it was the same or slower burning then W231, the Max load would be the same or higher then W231.

But it never is.
It's Always lower in any caliber, with any bullet weight.

rc

jcwit
February 20, 2013, 09:24 PM
I see that big chart I linked to is dated 1999 - 2004.

Spose that might have something to do with it?

Old data?

Whether or no, follow the recipes in the reloading manuals, simple as that.

wankerjake
February 20, 2013, 09:32 PM
So which one is correct??? I'd be tempted to trust Hodgdon.

rcmodel
February 20, 2013, 09:38 PM
So would I.

Or any reloading manual from any publisher.

Like I said, 700X max loads are Always lower grain weight then W-231 max loads.

That right there is what I call a Clue when it comes to which one is faster burning.

rc

BBQJOE
February 20, 2013, 09:44 PM
I've been reloading for only about 5 years.
I'm not near as anal/particular/calculating as the true analyst shooters out there.
I don't shoot competition or any thing like that.
If I can put a bullet where I choose within 25 to 50 feet, I figure that's fine since they say that the distance most gunfights happen is probably less than that, esp for pistol.
I don't document pinpoint accuracy like some do, and I will never claim to be an expert. I can't see measuring speeds and such.

Especially since I'm more focused on the worst case scenario of all of us being cut off from reloading supplies, or bullets period.

So as far as I'm concerned, ANYTHING that will get a bullet out of the barrel with enough effectiveness to provide stopping power from an attack, is, well, good enough for me.

I don't mean to start an argument or anything at all. It is kinda weird though how a number of these manual writers see things so differently.

rcmodel
February 20, 2013, 09:49 PM
Hey!
No problem.

I wasn't trying to argue either.

I just wanted to point out that 700X is not even close to the same burn rate or data as W-231.

It will work just fine for your intended use.

Just as long as you didn't confuse it with W-231 burn rate and try to use it with W-231 data.

rc

BBQJOE
February 20, 2013, 10:05 PM
I just wanted to point out that 700X is not even close to the same burn rate or data as W-231.
I find it nuts that Lee has them right next to each other, and lyman has them like 11 apart.
But nonetheless, IMR has their own data, and common sense says to me to start with that.

Thanks.
Joe

jcwit
February 20, 2013, 10:31 PM
I'll side with rcmodel, to much experience to take into account.

kingmt
February 21, 2013, 02:04 AM
I'll side with twofifty. Those look like good ribs.

ArchAngelCD
February 21, 2013, 08:20 AM
I find it nuts that Lee has them right next to each other, and lyman has them like 11 apart.
But nonetheless, IMR has their own data, and common sense says to me to start with that.

Thanks.
Joe
discussions like this happen all the time because all those charts are not actual set in stone burn rates, they are relative burn rates which are dependent upon the cartridge being tested.

700X is a shotgun powder unlike W231/HP-38 which is a dedicated handgun powder. I agree any port in a storm but don't confuse 700X with a slower powder, it's an extremely fast powder in the real world, not matter what some chart says.

No reason to doubt the load data in favor of a chart. Like "rc" said, every single example of charge weights between 700X and W231 the charge weights of W231 are higher.

BBQJOE
February 21, 2013, 10:08 AM
This is what IMR shows for .44 spl, which is primarily what I shoot/used to shoot, for a plinking load using cast 240 gr bullets.
It is 1.8 grains under what I normally load using unique.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f172/barbecuejoe/IMR_zpsfdb70791.jpg

dickttx
February 21, 2013, 10:10 AM
Does anyone load from a burn rate chart?
What difference does it make that there are several charts and none agree?
Just look at the multitude of manuals and and pick a load to start.

jerkface11
February 21, 2013, 10:29 AM
Why is it then, that any reloading data you look at shows a Max load of 700X being less grains then a Max load of W231 with the same bullet??


Because burn rate in a burn box is different from burn rate in a loaded cartridge.

wardor
February 21, 2013, 10:44 AM
max loads are based on pressures, different powders have different burning properties (beyond just simple rate).

rsrocket1
February 21, 2013, 10:54 AM
I haven't used 700-X since the late 70's but it was perfect for 1-1/8 oz 12 ga loads and my older brother used it extensively in 38/357/45ACP so I tend to think it is closer to Unique in performance than it is to a fast powder such as Clays.

Looks like you have some load development coming up. That's half the fun!

Be sure to thank your wife.

10 Spot Terminator
February 21, 2013, 12:25 PM
About those burn rate charts of which there are many ,,,

Look to see how many powders each of them list total and apply that to a certain degree as to what # it assigns to a specific powder. Each of these charts is an entitiy unto itself. Not all charts list military cannister powders, or those made by companies such as Scott, ADI, Vectan, Norma and so on which result in specific rating numbers being assigned to a specific powder based on that specific chart. Some early charts have discontinued powders in them . Bear in mind people these are refference charts for burn rates to give you a relative idea where they fall into play but bottom line in any load developement is "pressure" using a given powder at specific wieghts under specific load varaiables brought on by bullet weights and their construction. case capacitys, bullet seating depths and so on. Add to this the need for "magnum" primers for certain powders to get them to light and burn properly that isnt reflected in these burn rate charts either. The charts are great in that it shows you powders within a certain range for your consideration and if you run these against published load data and will allow you to see how the specific characteristics of certain powders in a given load stack up against one another. Even at this the major maunual suppliers will tend to disagree somewhat and leaves you to do some deductive reasoning on your own. They gave us 0pposable thumbs but the rest is circumspect :D

10 Spot

floydster
February 21, 2013, 12:46 PM
Why does everything have to be soo complicated:)

hueyville
February 21, 2013, 01:59 PM
It all burns unless you get it wet. Look it up, start a little low, and work it up. Arguing the specifics of different manuals is splitting hairs. No way is every resource going to agree. As long as nobody loses an eye its all good.

kingmt
February 21, 2013, 02:10 PM
People make it complicated.

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