SAA Price Gouging


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J_McLeod
February 21, 2013, 09:42 AM
Surplus Ammo and Arms has PMAGs in stock.

http://www.surplusammo.com/magpul-gen-2-pmag-30-round-5-56x45-ar15-m16-magazine-black-includes-dust-cover-mag211-blk/

I used to really like the company and even bought my AR from them, but don't know if I'll order from them any more after seeing this.

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Sam1911
February 21, 2013, 10:02 AM
Hmmm. They have some in stock. Cool. If someone really needs one right now, they can get one.

If they were cheaper, they'd probably be long gone, thus not available for anyone to purchase.

A smart company sets price at whatever point lets them sell almost, but not quite, all they can get. If you're selling every single one you've got immediately, you aren't charging enough.

Available but expensive beats cheap but completely sold out if you really need one right now.

Can't "gouge" someone who is willing to spend their money.

Analogkid
February 21, 2013, 10:23 AM
I I saw they changed their price on 22lr 525 bulk from $59 TO $69 to $79 and then to $84 all in one day. Sorry... That's gouging.

Sam1911
February 21, 2013, 10:25 AM
They must have been afraid they were selling out too quickly. Good idea to use price to throttle back demand. They maximize profits and their customers can still get some if they really, really need it.

nelsonal
February 21, 2013, 10:29 AM
I'm with Sam, I'd much rather see prices increase than have to obsessively watch gunbot/ammoseek or something similar to find something in stock and have only seconds to decide.

In economist terms, low prices running out of stock quickly favor those with low opportunity costs (basically lots of spare time but less willingness to pay) high prices in stock favor those with high opportunity costs (little time to devote to searching but more willingness to pay). So in some sense it's probably good that the huge increase in demand is met by sellers of both types.

Akita1
February 21, 2013, 10:40 AM
I'm with Sam, I'd much rather see prices increase than have to obsessively watch gunbot/ammoseek or something similar to find something in stock and have only seconds to decide.

In economist terms, low prices running out of stock quickly favor those with low opportunity costs (basically lots of spare time but less willingness to pay) high prices in stock favor those with high opportunity costs (little time to devote to searching but more willingness to pay). So in some sense it's probably good that the huge increase in demand is met by sellers of both types.
Torn on this one; feels like people charging $10/gallon of gas or $5/bottle of water after a hurricane (yes, we can have the need vs. want debate). The other side of me says the market dictates the price and things are worth what people are willing to pay.

Perhaps there is middle ground. My favorite LGS is selling Pmags $20/each out the door. That's not the $12.99 they originally were way back when, but it's not $60 either. They always seem to have both 20 and 30-round in stock and limit people to 2 or 3 per event. Their business is thriving because they openly practice a no-gouging policy. Most of the other LGS around here are gouging and no one frequents them anymore.

Many of us have long memories and when/if things settle down, we'll see how these practices play out in the long run. A short term business plan is not a plan at all.

Akita1
February 21, 2013, 10:46 AM
Sorry, no it isn't.

What you people don't seem to understand is that retailers are in the business to make money. They don't make money, they don't survive. I know for a fact at least one newly opened, smallish gun shop has already gone under because they can't get merchandise at any price.

These stores can't get merchandise yet they still have to meet expenses. Rent, utilities, etc. To come up with that money they have to raise prices on existing inventory, otherwise they can't generate cash flow to pay their bills.

Here is a thread by one of our better gun stores on this exact subject. I suggest you read it very carefully.

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/320601935/m/8370091513
Good post. That sucks for TGS - will go buy some stuff from them as I am a huge SIG fan.

Wonder why some LGS seem to have inventory and others do not? It is likely either (a) supplier relationships (term and size - the longer and larger the higher the priority) or (b) inventory on hand when the chaos started.

oneounceload
February 21, 2013, 10:53 AM
Folks who think this is price gouging need to watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9QEkw6_O6w

Sam1911
February 21, 2013, 10:54 AM
There are several different models that can work. If you can get supply and you want to play the "anti-gouging" angle, you can be the big mean jerks (;)) who don't let folks buy more than 2-3 of something. And that might work well, depending on various factors.

Most of the other LGS around here are gouging and no one frequents them anymore.:) If they're still in business, SOMEONE is frequenting them. And that's the flip side to the argument. A business will not sit on stock that isn't selling, demanding a high price that no one will pay. They may be a higher priced retailer than the place you're going to now, but enough folks are still paying those prices that it still pays them to hold that price line. When they get to the point where their sales really are dropping enough that their products are just sitting on the shelf unsold, the prices will fall.

il.bill
February 21, 2013, 10:55 AM
Sam1911 and nelsonal make good points.

I certainly understand someone's frustration from watching prices spiral upward. It simply seems 'wrong' for already overpriced .22LR ammo to jump another 40% in a single day. Short of government intervention with imposed price controls, I do not see a viable alternative to letting market forces such as supply and demand do their thing. We can choose, as individuals or collectively, whether or not to do business with a particular vendor at a particular time, but having that freedom of 'choice' is very important.

When people talk about 'price gouging' two things come to mind for me.
First, would they consider it gouging if they bought 100 shares of stock at $10 each then sold them six months later at $25 each?
Second, I think of a local Gas Mart owner who ran a successful business for years in our small midwestern town. The afternoon of the September 11th terrorist attacks he got scared and doubled the selling price of the gasoline already stored in his tanks. Now that is an example of price gouging. Reason and calm prevailed, and the next day things were back to normal, but the people in our small town never forgot. They went out of their way to do business elsewhere, and before long he was forced to close.

Akita1
February 21, 2013, 11:01 AM
IIRC, that is gouging. But raising the price of mags and ammo in the current environment is not the same thing, legally or ethically. These panic shoppers obviously don't need what they're buying since they've waited so long to buy it. And in six months to a year, they'll probably be trying to sell it.

That's what I'm waiting for. I'll probably start going to the shows again to look for the guy walking around about to collapse under his load of guns and ammo.
Yep - need vs. want! Candidly, I "need" the ammo because I shoot a bunch - not willing to give up my favorite hobby because of market swings and make a decent enough living to take the economic punch in the gut…for a while anyway.

Agreed on your show comment - it's akin to the end of hunting season around here when there is suddenly a glut of Remington 700s on consignment at the LGS because people really couldn't afford them at the beginning of the season when they purchased!

We have seen a lot of people buying bulk everything at the LGS and listing on gun broker, essentially flipping inventory much like our lovely recent housing bubble. Duck…duck…duck…GOOSE!

coolluke01
February 21, 2013, 11:07 AM
Always remember who sets the price, the customer!
Also, if you don't like the high prices of AR's then get after those that are hanging on to theirs to sell them. More on the market means lower prices. I did my part. ;-)

powder
February 21, 2013, 11:13 AM
Raising prices, based on fear mongering of the ultra-leftists, is gouging.

Order your P-Mags from Brownells, backorder, whatever the wait will be for $13 a mag..

However, the reasoning of the supposed "capitalism" protectionists gets more and more entertaining to read. Same folks who believe it is acceptable for our military to be buying truck fuel from Halliburton for $400 a gallon in the Middle East regions.

Justin
February 21, 2013, 11:18 AM
Demand for a given supply of a good will drive price and availability.

Got a large supply and not enough demand? Prices go down.

Got a large amount of demand and a constrained supply? Prices go up.

This is first year economics, people.



Price is the most efficient and effective way to ration a limited supply of something. The only other way to do it is for some authority to ration that supply.

AlexanderA
February 21, 2013, 11:25 AM
SAA? I thought someone was price-gouging on Single Action Armies. Now that would be interesting!

Akita1
February 21, 2013, 11:57 AM
Demand for a given supply of a good will drive price and availability.

Got a large supply and not enough demand? Prices go down.

Got a large amount of demand and a constrained supply? Prices go up.

This is first year economics, people.



Price is the most efficient and effective way to ration a limited supply of something. The only other way to do it is for some authority to ration that supply.
Thanks for the freshman year of high school economics lesson Justin!

316SS
February 21, 2013, 11:59 AM
Demand for a given supply of a good will drive price and availability.

Got a large supply and not enough demand? Prices go down.

Got a large amount of demand and a constrained supply? Prices go up.

This is first year economics, people.

I think everyone gets the supply/demand thing. But consider this: the OP has purchased from this company, but now is upset by their pricing and is considering taking his money elsewhere in the future. People are complex, and will often pay a price premium to purchase from a company they respect over one they don't. We gun owners know a thing or two about punishing companies for real or perceived wrongs.

Sam1911
February 21, 2013, 12:02 PM
Right. But if enough people are "rewarding" them by paying $50 each for a pile of mags right now, that's better than hoping all your close personal friends and customers remember what a nice guy you were to still be selling for $15, whenever you get another magazine in stock to put out for sale.

Customer loyalty is indeed a good thing, and complex. But money in hand is worth 100x money you hope folks come give you some other day if things work out well down the road.

hso
February 21, 2013, 12:11 PM
It doesn't do any good to have a cheap price and no product (AND no backorder capability).

Ruger has these for under $30, but you have to put in a backorder and there's no way to know when they'll ship.

For some businesses it is important to have product actually available to ship to customers that reallllllllly want it. For others it is more important to show a price that they can't deliver.

Samir
February 21, 2013, 12:21 PM
Sorry... That's gouging.

Hey, if we complain to the government, maybe they'll legislate price controls! That'll save us! :D

JustinJ
February 21, 2013, 12:28 PM
My LGS has only raised prices slightly to offset increased prices from their distributors. Instead of gouging they limit the amount of certain items that each customer can purchase per month so there is still some available for all and customers aren't over charged. They've done this during each panic and have consistently grown in popularity over time.

mrvco
February 21, 2013, 12:34 PM
I've seen those same mags locally for $59.99 recently. I'd expect that it is in their best interest to not have them fly off their shelves and keep some in-stock for folks ordering parts to build a new AR. $20-30 extra for a mag isn't much when you're building a new AR and want to make sure you have everything you need to finish the build versus waiting on backordered mags.

il.bill
February 21, 2013, 12:54 PM
SAA? I thought someone was price-gouging on Single Action Armies. Now that would be interesting!
That aspect of the title is actually why I clicked on this thread in the first place.

pty101
February 21, 2013, 12:58 PM
I wouldn't call PMAGs for $51.99 price gouging, its on the high end of the average market price at the moment and the price you pay for being able to them in stock and not backordering

nelsonal
February 21, 2013, 01:00 PM
I came thinking this was about Single Action Army gouging as well, picked up an Interarms clone at a good price a little bit ago, and it seems like the general trade has been revolver for black guns, so I was surprised to hear someone might be gouging.

I'd prefer to see ammo more sold by manufacturer auction (in volumes to get a better idea of what the market clearing price truly is).

Jim, West PA
February 21, 2013, 01:04 PM
My LGS has only raised prices slightly to offset increased prices from their distributors. Instead of gouging they limit the amount of certain items that each customer can purchase per month so there is still some available for all and customers aren't over charged. They've done this during each panic and have consistently grown in popularity over time.

Same here Justin. Two are doin it the way you state and the rest are, i mean, were, gouging. The two non greedy ones are doin just fine.
They always did have non greedy prices tho and moved much more inventory. Moving more inventory means getting more from distributors. Some distributors are more faithful to thier more faithful customers.

Sam1911
February 21, 2013, 01:11 PM
They always did have non greedy prices tho and moved much more inventory.Really? Did they? What were their comparative total profit levels? Did moving more inventory bring in more money? Or was it just more work for the same reward? And if there's not more inventory to GET? What then?

Moving more inventory means getting more from distributors.Does it? So, if you sell out the 50 P-Mags you get today, does your distributor reserve an extra 10 for you next week? Or do you get whatever you get, regardless of whether you sell them all for $10 or are still sitting on them at $100?

A lot of the things folks say in these threads SOUNDS good. Pleasant opinions about how this works. I'd like to hear the same sorts of things from retailers and distributors. Then I'd know if any of these ideas about who gets what and who's business plan is working best are really accurate.

Black Butte
February 21, 2013, 01:24 PM
I put in my order as soon Obama launched his attack on the Second Amendment and locked in the price of $15 each.

Those who were slow to act can either wait and hope this whole thing blows over, or else pay a premium to beat any potential ban.

I got mine. :)

Queen_of_Thunder
February 21, 2013, 02:00 PM
I just picked up some ammo from Academy this morning. The UMC 1,000 round 9mm 115gr bulk has gone up $10 from what I bought it for a few weeks ago. The 45acp stayed the same and 40 s&w is nearly the same price as 45acp.

Poper
February 21, 2013, 02:58 PM
Same folks who believe it is acceptable for our military to be buying truck fuel from Halliburton for $400 a gallon in the Middle East regions.I, for one, am not sure such a thing has happened. However, supposing it did, who's fault is would it be? Haliburton or the bureaucrat tasked with procuring fuel?

Anyone expecting logic and frugality from government, surely hasn't been paying attention to government spending for the last 50 years or so. :neener:

JMHO.

Poper

oneounceload
February 21, 2013, 03:03 PM
I saw they changed their price on 22lr 525 bulk from $59 TO $69 to $79 and then to $84 all in one day. Sorry... That's gouging.

Did you miss the "gas shortages" in the 70's? Gas prices changed hourly, depending on what might become available. A retailer with zero inventory is one who is out of business completely. It is NOT gouging if folks who are in a better financial situation than you are willingly paying the asking price.

Maj Dad
February 21, 2013, 03:45 PM
I saw they changed their price on 22lr 525 bulk from $59 TO $69 to $79 and then to $84 all in one day. Sorry... That's gouging.
This case of 5000 GI Rem 22 lr std vel was listed at $0.01, and check out the final price (plus $50 shipping) - these bidders weren't gouged, they just paid what it was worth to them. I have a case of it I got from the CMP, and let met tell you, that is awfully tempting for something I paid $125 plus $25 shipping... :what:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=330212586

TennJed
February 21, 2013, 07:09 PM
I I saw they changed their price on 22lr 525 bulk from $59 TO $69 to $79 and then to $84 all in one day. Sorry... That's gouging.
I am really glad you feel that way. I will pm you my info. I would like all the 22 ammo you have for $19.99 per 550.

Thanks again, you have really made my day

Grassman
February 21, 2013, 07:11 PM
SAA is dead to me.

oneounceload
February 21, 2013, 07:57 PM
I am really glad you feel that way. I will pm you my info. I would like all the 22 ammo you have for $19.99 per 550.

THAT much? I want it all for what i last bought it for -

$95, OTD for a case of 6250 rounds - anything else is GOUGING - at least according to everyone who never took econ 101

Akita1
February 21, 2013, 11:32 PM
Blue Falcon

jerkface11
February 21, 2013, 11:35 PM
I can't help but notice the price on METAL mags hasn't gone up that much. So why not buy those instead of whining that the price of P-Mags is higher now?

Akita1
February 21, 2013, 11:45 PM
I can't help but notice the price on METAL mags hasn't gone up that much. So why not buy those instead of whining that the price of P-Mags is higher now?
because Pmags are SOOOO cool and Magpul is Jesus, where have you been jerkface?

Sorry, couldn't help it...

Have plenty of metal too but candidly do buy/own lots of Magpul stuff because it's quality product, makes my ARs lighter and it works. Lucky that my LGS still seems to be getting inventory and selling at pre-paranoia prices.

jerkface11
February 21, 2013, 11:49 PM
I own several P-Mags myself. However I would not buy them at the current prices. I also would not whine about said prices.

Akita1
February 21, 2013, 11:56 PM
I own several P-Mags myself. However I would not buy them at the current prices. I also would not whine about said prices.
amen brother, but I seem to be taking it in the keyster a bit on ammo; gotta stop that shooting thing...

thefish
February 22, 2013, 01:53 AM
Torn on this one; feels like people charging $10/gallon of gas or $5/bottle of water after a hurricane (yes, we can have the need vs. want debate). The other side of me says the market dictates the price and things are worth what people are willing to pay.


Water is a necessity for survival. Gas could be debated as a necessity as well.

PMAGS, well, not so much. Luxury item.

Not Gouging in my book. The market will decide what price is too high.

MachIVshooter
February 22, 2013, 03:55 AM
There are several different models that can work. If you can get supply and you want to play the "anti-gouging" angle, you can be the big mean jerks () who don't let folks buy more than 2-3 of something. And that might work well, depending on various factors.

It has been demonstrated to be effective.

Armalite implemented this policy in early January. I was going to weather the storm with the three 25 round Gen II AR-10 mags I had, but then this CO legislation came along. Because of their policy, I was able to get 2 more mags at normal pricing (still spendy at $43/ea).

There are pluses and minuses to either approach. If I wanted 20 mags, Armalite's policy prevents me from acquiring them right now. But at the same time, the only place I found to have the Gen II 25 rounders in stock without purchase limits wanted $89/mag, so 20 mags would have cost $1,780. So, one policy gives people with less money the option to have a couple, while the other gives people the option to buy as many as they want, but making the product unaffordable to lots of folks.

Both situations suck; one may be preferable to the other, depending on your needs and financial means.

Ironclad
February 22, 2013, 04:51 AM
Do what I do... If you think it is priced too high, don't buy it. Problem solved. If everyone does that, the price will be just where it needs to be.

ApacheCoTodd
February 22, 2013, 11:11 AM
I'll vote with my wallet. If I need something badly enough and can pay, I will pay.

As for "gouging", I think all these gouging whine-fests are gouging space on the forum and resolve to vote them "terrible" in the "Rate thread" box at the top of the page.

GoWolfpack
February 22, 2013, 12:49 PM
I'll vote with my wallet. If I need something badly enough and can pay, I will pay.

As for "gouging", I think all these gouging whine-fests are gouging space on the forum and resolve to them "terrible" in the "Rate thread" box at the top of the page.
I've got a great idea: let's make a gouging sub-forum with the option to have it hidden if you think complaining about a response to sharp increase in demand is stupid.

silicosys4
February 22, 2013, 01:41 PM
All I know is I went and back ordered 5 pmags for $75, should have them in a few months. That was 5 pmags that were sold at $12.75 each, that I was willing to wait 2 months for, instead of the 1 pmag that I could have gotten within a few weeks for about the same price.
CTD may have pmags in stock for those that really need them, but I don't see too many "thank heavens for CTD" threads right now. Try and convince me that CTD's sales tactics and policies these last two months have been good for them in the long run.

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