Should Utah Allow CCW w/o Permits?


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BearGriz
February 21, 2013, 07:25 PM
I have mixed feelings on this issue. It looks like our governor isn't too enthusiastic about "constitutional carry," but he isn't saying he'll veto either:

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/55876539-90/concealed-gun-carry-herbert.html.csp

We do about 77,000 each year (about 30% of those for out-of-state applicants):

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/55680230-90/utah-concealed-carry-gun.html.csp

I wonder if the governor doesn't like the end of the CCW permit revenue stream. Personally, I sort of like the idea that applicants have to take some training. Some of us need more training than others (think of the man in Ogden, UT who illegally shot at retreating criminals a few weeks ago).

On the other hand, I can also sympathize with the arguments that it isn't the business of the state whether I am carrying or not (as long as I am not a prohibited person or committing a crime). It is also nice to hear of some state governments securing more rights for us (we are seeing too much of the opposite in too many states).

I have been considering getting a permit (for almost a year), but now I'll wait and see. Procrastination may pay off. :)

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akv3g4n
February 21, 2013, 07:33 PM
You should not need a permit to exercise your constitutional rights. It is still your responsibility to know the laws surrounding lethal force and defensive use of a firearm.

If you need training for proper use of a firearm, you may obtain that at your discretion by whatever means you see fit (class, friend or family member). This should be the persons responsibility to ensure that they stay within the law and can effectively use the firearm for protection but should not be government mandated.

Grassman
February 21, 2013, 07:48 PM
The one word that gets me is "allow". What are we kids? Last time I checked I've never been in trouble with the law, and I own a successful business. That makes it my right.

gbran
February 21, 2013, 07:56 PM
I liked the argument used in AZ when they went constitutional carry. They alraedy had legal open carry and saw no problem if someone simply covered their their open carry piece.

JohnM
February 21, 2013, 07:58 PM
You asking about open or concealed?
I thought Utah always had open carry just like Wyoming.
We did away with a permit needed for concealed last year.

archigos
February 21, 2013, 08:01 PM
The one word that gets me is "allow". What are we kids? Last time I checked I've never been in trouble with the law, and I own a successful business. That makes it my right.
No. Being born human makes it your right.

Hondodawg
February 21, 2013, 08:02 PM
I suspect if it does pass nearly all the states with reciprocal agreements will pull back on them.

Old Fuff
February 21, 2013, 08:06 PM
Since I live in Arizona I had some concerns about no-license concealed carry, mainly because of a total lack of training requirements. But time has passed and the issues I expected have not happened. Even the 18 >21-year-old folks have behaved in a most commendable manner. Tell your governor to come down and look.

ID-shooting
February 21, 2013, 08:10 PM
I only have one argument for a license to carry...Biden. Do you really want someone with the mental capacity and the "ideas" of what effective firearm use as him out in public with a loaded gun? Sometimes a little required training is a good thing.

Texan Scott
February 21, 2013, 08:11 PM
The vast majority of people who shouldn't be allowed to CCW already do if able and so inclined, and always will. They're called criminals, and probably have little opinion on this proposal, as it does not affect them either way. Think about it.

k_dawg
February 21, 2013, 08:11 PM
Should one require a permit for due-process rights, or the ability to read a newspaper?

Same answer as with the 2nd.

BearGriz
February 22, 2013, 07:17 PM
I only have one argument for a license to carry...Biden. Do you really want someone with the mental capacity and the "ideas" of what effective firearm use as him out in public with a loaded gun? Sometimes a little required training is a good thing.
Yeah, that guy scares me...and even more with a gun in his hand

The more I think about it, the more I conclude that no training should be required (I'm the OP with the mixed feelings). Here is my train of thought:


Maybe we could just require a certificate (similar to hunter education card here in Utah).
Just take a class (online or in a class) that teaches you the laws.
You wouldn't need to register, or have the card on you, you just need to have received the card before you carry.
Not having received the card is just a secondary offense.
OK, so what would be the first offense? Being caught with a firearm? No, not unless you were doing something wrong with it.
So why would you be caught? An unjustified/illegal shooing? Trying to take it on an airplane?
In those cases the offense is (in itself) enough to result in penalties.
I suppose the reason to require training is prevent those primary offenses...so now we're just adding an enhancement penalty?
It would have to be an enhancement because I don't like the idea of penalizing someone who carried concealed without a training card certification, used the weapon in a good shooting, and is now in trouble because they weren't trained in ways to avoid doing something that is illegal.
Their only offense was not being trained in what not to do, otherwise they didn't do anything wrong.
They ended up doing everything right (it was a good shoot) except get trained on avoiding the wrong things (things they didn't do!).


OK, so I agree that it sort of doesn't add up unless you want to scare people into doing it by making it an enhancement penalty, which (on principle) I don't really like. Those who mess up will already be in trouble for doing something wrong.

Lateck
February 22, 2013, 07:54 PM
As a legal carrying Arizonion,
Yes, ALL states should allow it.

Lateck,

Sam1911
February 22, 2013, 07:57 PM
Of course! Surprised anyone would even have to ask at this point.

But they should still provide optional permits to help the residents with reciprocity from those states still stuck down the curve.

danez71
February 22, 2013, 08:04 PM
Its worked well in AZ.

Of course! Surprised anyone would even have to ask at this point.

But they should still provide optional permits to help the residents with reciprocity from those states still stuck down the curve.

I agree.

I got my AZ permit before they went Constitutional Carry and I do plan on renewing it.

In AZ, a permit also lets you CC in a bar (but not drink) and a few other things.

splattergun
February 22, 2013, 08:12 PM
In Utah we already carry without permit in our vehicles, as they are considered an extension of our homes. Remember all the horrific doomsday predictions of unstoppable death in the streets from everyone driving around with guns?
Quite the opposite result. Crime is down the past 2 years since vehicle carry came.

I am all for constitutional carry. When was the last time you heard of a mass shooting in Vermont?

351 WINCHESTER
February 22, 2013, 08:22 PM
It's no coinsidence that crime goes way down when the criminals know that lots of folks are packing heat.

Sam1911
February 22, 2013, 08:32 PM
It's no coinsidence that crime goes way down when the criminals know that lots of folks are packing heat.I know we keep saying that, but it doesn't actually seem to be based in realistic analysis. Too many factors influence crime rates, and too few folks ever carry in total, to really hold that up as more that a bit of propaganda.

Plan2Live
February 22, 2013, 08:40 PM
In the interest of full disclosure I am a CWP instructor. On class day I spend 12 hours away from home, spend about 9 of those on my feet and at least 6 1/2 of those talking. In the end I walk away with maybe $200 net. So I certainly don't do it for the money.

I am also a volunteer RSO at a local public range. Between my volunteer work at the range, my CWP class and helping another instructor with his very large classes in another city, I see appaling gun skills and am constantly amazed that more of these people don't hurt themselves or someone else. So based on these observations I am not in favor of 100% constitutional carry. Sorry, just my opinion.

josiewales
February 22, 2013, 08:50 PM
No. Being born human makes it your right.

No, being an AMERICAN makes it your right.
Sorry had to throw that in there. :)

Sam1911
February 22, 2013, 08:55 PM
No, being an AMERICAN makes it your right.
Sorry had to throw that in there.No. That's NOT what the founders said. They said, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights ..."

Being an American just puts you in a political context that recognizes the fact.

Sam1911
February 22, 2013, 09:01 PM
I see appaling gun skills and am constantly amazed that more of these people don't hurt themselves or someone else.

I do too. Lots. And yet, they don't. So, despite our fears of blood in the streets, instances of lawful concealed carriers breaking the law or harming anyone unjustly are MINUSCULE, almost to the point of non-existence.

And what passes for CCW training in many cases doesn't offer even a prayer of much improvement. No state-mandated 8 hour, or 6 hour, or 4 hour course is going to turn many of these goofs into safe and responsible gun-handlers. And yet, there is NO ACTUAL SOCIAL PROBLEM.

Now, personally, I say freedom isn't free and it isn't necessarily safe. So if there was a risk to society from the untrained masses, I'd still be against forced requirements. However, that's not even the case, so doubly no.

akv3g4n
February 22, 2013, 09:01 PM
Plan2Live-

I think any responsible individual will take the initiative to learn the safe handling of firearms before carrying them outside the home. Irresponsible individuals will not, and, if forced to take a class will probably think they know better and not absorb much from the class anyway. You can't legislate responsibility.

There are certainly plenty of chp holders in my state (which requires a 12 hour class prior to receiving a permit) that demonstrate the same unsafe practices that you describe. Education is never a bad thing but continually setting conditions that someone must meet before they can practice their constitutional rights is a slippery slope.....

Thank you for dedicating your free time to educate people in being responsible for their own safety.

josiewales
February 22, 2013, 09:04 PM
No. That's NOT what the founders said. They said, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights ..."

Being an American just puts you in a political context that recognizes the fact.


Hmm... Very well put, thank you.

Inebriated
February 22, 2013, 09:08 PM
I do too. Lots. And yet, they don't. So, despite our fears of blood in the streets, instances of lawful concealed carriers breaking the law or harming anyone unjustly are MINUSCULE, almost to the point of non-existence.

And what passes for CCW training in many cases doesn't offer even a prayer of much improvement. No state-mandated 8 hour, or 6 hour, or 4 hour course is going to turn many of these goofs into safe and responsible gun-handlers. And yet, there is NO ACTUAL SOCIAL PROBLEM.

Now, personally, I say freedom isn't free and it isn't necessarily safe. So if there was a risk to society from the untrained masses, I'd still be against forced requirements. However, that's not even the case, so doubly no.
Pretty much sums this thread up for me.

Sam1911
February 22, 2013, 09:15 PM
Hmm... Very well put, thank you.:)

You're welcome! Today the USA. Tomorrow, the world!

manithree
February 23, 2013, 11:42 AM
I agree 100% with the posts oposing gov't imposed training.

I wonder if the governor doesn't like the end of the CCW permit revenue stream.

Are you saying your research into Arizona's Constitutional carry law leads you to believe there will be a drop in CCW classes anywhere if this law is passed? Last I heard, it didn't in AZ.

For one thing, UT's CFP is as popular outside Utah as it is in. Second, you still can't carry in schools in UT unless you get a Utah CFP. And I know for a fact it's hard not to be within 1000 ft of a school along the Wasatch Front.

The idea that Constitutional carry is mutually exclusive with CFP is mistaken. Common, but mistaken.

Texshooter
February 23, 2013, 01:41 PM
Yes.

BearGriz
February 23, 2013, 02:02 PM
Second, you still can't carry in schools in UT unless you get a Utah CFP. And I know for a fact it's hard not to be within 1000 ft of a school along the Wasatch Front.

The idea that Constitutional carry is mutually exclusive with CFP is mistaken. Common, but mistaken.

As mentioned earlier, in Utah we can store a loaded handgun in our vehicles (if we are 18). How does that law work with schools? Can I put a loaded gun in my glovebox, drive it onto school property, park, go in, then come back later - all the while there is a loaded gun in my car?

Is the idea that I drove a part of my "home" onto the parking lot, so this is OK?

In any case, it does sound like procrastination may only partially pay off if I want to carry in more places. Of course no matter what there will be some places that will always be off limits.

sota
February 23, 2013, 02:19 PM
I'm internally divided on this.
I believe Constitutional Carry should be upheld in all states.
And yet I also believe that people SHOULD take training before they carry in any capacity.

If by some impressive magic trick NJ became CC tomorrow, before I'd strap on my holster I'd be signing up for classes. But them I'm supposedly above the average of intelligence and it just makes SENSE to get training before doing something like CC/CCW. So how do we... encourage... people to seek training, without some form of penalty system? (permitting, fines, etc.) Do we give positive incentives (free range days? box of ammo? discount on price or sales tax on next firearms purchase? a fancy pin??) to entice people to seek training? Honestly, I don't know. I want to believe everyone who CCW's wants to be trained on the laws surrounding their exercise of rights, but the simple fact is way too many people walking around today are too flipping dumb to look up from their phones while crossing the street.

I will say this though... I'd rather have CC and deal with the steaming masses problem then NOT have CC.

Sam1911
February 23, 2013, 02:47 PM
As mentioned earlier, in Utah we can store a loaded handgun in our vehicles (if we are 18). How does that law work with schools? Can I put a loaded gun in my glovebox, drive it onto school property, park, go in, then come back later - all the while there is a loaded gun in my car?The federal Gun Free School Zone Act says you may ONLY possess a firearm within a school zone (that is, within 1,000 feet of a school) if "if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990

So, if that parking lot is more than 1,000 feet away from the school, you're fine. Otherwise, no.

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