How much is too much to pay for Garand brass?


PDA






ali9cg8
February 22, 2013, 01:09 AM
:banghead:

I've run through all of my WRA's and FA's and erring on the side of caution- they're done. I tried some commercial Winchester this weekend and the M1 did not want to play. So I played around a bit with the bullet seating- hate the RCBS die BTW- and the Lee die is in the mail. So, Gunbroker has some brass, stupid prices of course, but I have has good luck so far with my Grandfather's LC, WRA, and FA's. I'm sitting here rolling around my last dozen and debating the issue. I spend too many weeks sleeping next to the newly acquired Garand before I got around to bulk ordering supplies. And everyone knows how that one ends.

I save my commercial brass for the 03a3. It eats anything.

If you enjoyed reading about "How much is too much to pay for Garand brass?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Catpop
February 22, 2013, 01:44 PM
Isn't a garand a garand like a 30-06 is 30-06?:confused:

USSR
February 22, 2013, 06:17 PM
Personally, I've never paid more than $.10 each for .30-06 military brass. The CMP sells a lot of the Greek HXP ammo, and guys on the CMP forum are constantly selling this brass. It's good stuff, and while you may have to pay a little more due to the current political climate, if you can get them for less than $.15 you would be doing good. Hope that helps.

Don

45lcshooter
February 22, 2013, 06:22 PM
Garand has no special brass. Just plain old 30-06. Sometimes you can fins it for 10 cents, most times its past 25 cents a piece shipped.

cfullgraf
February 22, 2013, 06:31 PM
CMP HXP Greek surplus is running about 50 cents a round. This was the same for new commercial 30-06 cases before the panic.

Plus, you get to "unload" it in the process as a bonus.

HXP is good brass.

Reloadron
February 22, 2013, 07:03 PM
While as mentioned the HXP through the CMP has a good reputation overall for a very reasonable price.

You mention having tried some commercial Winchester this weekend and I assume loaded commercial Winchester 30-06 ammunition but you don't mention exactly what or what the problem was or what Winchester ammunition? Form, fit, function or just plain accuracy?

As to loading dies in 30-06 I have Lee and RCBS and when loading for my M1 Garand rifles they both work fine for me. Loading 150 grain FMJ and also 168 grain Sierra MK bullets. What exactly was the problem using the RCBS dies? I have loaded military brass as well as new factory 30-06 Winchester and Remington brass and no problems with the dies or rifles I shot the stuff in.

Maybe if you shared some of the specific problems some of the members could add some good information to help with the problems.

Ron

Trent
February 22, 2013, 08:06 PM
PM Sent

bainter1212
February 22, 2013, 09:12 PM
I have loaded using everything from brand new Federal brass all the way to 1943 dated LC, and everything in between. My Garand eats all of it. What specific problem are you having?

medalguy
February 22, 2013, 11:49 PM
Same here. I prefer GI brass because it seems to last longer, but any .30-06 brass should be dimensionally equivalent. It's what's inside that usually makes the difference.

ArchAngelCD
February 23, 2013, 12:44 AM
I've run through all of my WRA's and FA's and erring on the side of caution- they're done.
What was wrong with them, anything or did you just throw them away on a random number of reload counts? I have 6 and 8 reloads on much of my Garand brass and all seem fine and will be reloaded again.
I tried some commercial Winchester this weekend and the M1 did not want to play.
Like said above, a 30-06 is a 30-06, why would Winchester brass be no good in a Garand? I have used commercial Win, Rem, Fed and a few others over the years with no problems at all.

ali9cg8
February 23, 2013, 01:08 AM
I've been trying to figure it out all week. It's like I know what I did, but I don't know exactly what I did. If that makes sense. Started off with the Winchester once-fired brass, didn't have any issues with resizing and made sure the cases were trimmed to the same length, 2.484. I did this like a crazy OCD person.

*Another question- the deburring- am I trying to make sure my bullet can be seated in the neck without tumbling over? I was told at my range that I wasn't crimping correctly- and I wasn't.

Basically what happened was this: run my finger over en bloc to make sure everything was even and sitting well, loaded the clip, let the op rod go. Everything as usual. And then nothing...a round was chambered, but the trigger wasn't going anywhere - thankfully, nothing worse happened. So the gunsmith (who doesn't reload and didn't understand my ramblings about OAL and velocity) removed the trigger assembly and fished out the round. I replaced a new round in the en bloc and it was business as usual. The next round did the same thing. At this point, we cleared the rifle and the gunsmith inspected it.

Nothing off but my rounds. I'm planning on replacing my springs per SlamFire's advice, but now I'm totally paranoid. Do I need a gas plug? Should I only ever load surplus brass? I know my loads are correct, but something seems to be going wrong with my seating process, among other things. I don't get the straight up advice on the range in person because I'm a young-ish person with the X chromosome. Kind of a novelty act, I suppose.

But I appreciate all of the advice that is given here and spend countless hours searching this thread. And if I'm doing anything involving math, science, and physics, then I seriously love it.

Trent
February 23, 2013, 01:25 AM
It sounds like you aren't fully sizing those casings.

You need to make sure the shoulder is pushed back to where it belongs. If you bought once fired, it's possible those were fired in an ill tempered badly headspaced rifle (a 1919 comes to mind, lots of new 1919 owners out there cranking away on their belt feds; people who don't know the first damn thing about headspacing one of them).

If YOU bought those brass new and shot them, you STILL need to size them. Brass grows to fill the chamber and it also stretches a little back when it fires, especially in a semi-auto.

Get a SMALL BASE sizing die and set it up properly. That'll get the round back in to SAAMI spec and it'll chamber properly.

Then your bolt will close all the way and the trigger will work as it should.

tcj
February 23, 2013, 09:58 AM
Also, get a case gauge. I check each case after resizing & trimming to make sure that it will chamber even before adding primer/powder/bullet.

Even with full length resizing & a small base resizing die, you will sometimes get a deformed case head that will cause it not to chamber. I almost always have a few rounds out of every session like this from them hitting a post or the concrete floor at my range.

ArchAngelCD
February 23, 2013, 11:20 AM
You don't need small base dies but they won't hurt. It sounds like a headspace problem so it's not the brass, it's the reloader. Nothing wrong with replacing the springs but the springs have nothing to do with the round not firing unless a spring is broken. I replaced all the springs in both my Garands with the kit sold by Wolff and I was very happy with the results.

Something is very wrong with the brass sizing if the round will not fire but I have serious doubts it's a Winchester problem...

Trent
February 23, 2013, 11:56 AM
You don't need small base dies but they won't hurt. It sounds like a headspace problem so it's not the brass, it's the reloader. Nothing wrong with replacing the springs but the springs have nothing to do with the round not firing unless a spring is broken. I replaced all the springs in both my Garands with the kit sold by Wolff and I was very happy with the results.

Something is very wrong with the brass sizing if the round will not fire but I have serious doubts it's a Winchester problem...

If the round bulges by the web, you do need a small base die to get that part back in shape.

I ran across this on 8mm recently and had to pull / resize 200 of them. The cheap Lee full length sizer wasn't touching the bottom 3/8" of the case, which was bulging in a partially unsupported chamber on a Yugo M76. I picked up a Redding small base sizer and that gets all the way down to the web.

Contrary to popular advice, you can NOT get the same effect by trimming the bottom of a standard full length sizer off. All you'll succeed in doing is shoving the shoulder back more. You can't add metal back to the die that's missing in the first place.

ArchAngelCD
February 23, 2013, 12:05 PM
Sorry Trent but I have NEVER had a problem with 30-06 M1 Garand ammo bulging brass, not ever. It's not a problem with the M1 so i see no reason to spend money on a set of dies that are not needed.

cfullgraf
February 23, 2013, 12:24 PM
First, you would not need a set of dies, just a small base sizer die.

While I have not had a chambering issue with my Garands, i have come to the conclusion from my other semi-auto rifles, if the case was fired in a different rifle, it is best to small base size them.

If I already had a standard resize die, I probably would not buy a small base resize die until I was sure I needed one. But, I would not rule out the possibility that the base of a case may not get sized enough if it was not fired in the subject rifle to begin with.

Life is to short to be digging stuck rounds out of chambers and do not tell me that my dies were not adjusted correctly. They were.

jcwit
February 23, 2013, 01:25 PM
All my 30/06 cases are once fired, I know this for a fact as I'm the one that picked them out of the dirt at the range I shoot at.

They have been reloaded using my "cheap" Lee Dies. Many of them have been fired in my Garand, some have even been reloaded more than a few times using my "cheap" Lee Dies. I've yet to have any problems.

Maybe somethings wrong with my Garand?

ArchAngelCD
February 23, 2013, 01:48 PM
All my 30/06 cases are once fired, I know this for a fact as I'm the one that picked them out of the dirt at the range I shoot at.

They have been reloaded using my "cheap" Lee Dies. Many of them have been fired in my Garand, some have even been reloaded more than a few times using my "cheap" Lee Dies. I've yet to have any problems.

Maybe somethings wrong with my Garand?
If there's something wrong with your Garand it seems mine has the same problem too... ;)

Reloadron
February 23, 2013, 01:48 PM
I agree with Slamfire's suggestion to replace the operating rod spring which ArchAngelCD also mentions. While a weak spring would have to be very weak or broken as not to chamber a round meeting specifications into a chamber meeting specifications it never hurts to replace the springs if you aren't sure what you have to begin with.

Now if I assume that the chamber is absolutely clean my best guess is you have a resizing problem with your brass. I doubt going from RCBS dies to Lee dies is the solution. I am also going to leave the discussion of Large Base versus Small Base dies alone. I will say this much on the subject. My niche or one of my niches when I owned a gun shop was The M1 Garand. On average there were 25 of those rifles for sale at any given time in various condition. That went on for years and every rifle I built up was test fired with no less than 48 rounds through it. Needless to say I loaded plenty of 30-06 ammunition for the M1 Garand during those years. I never had a problem loading for the Garand with standard dies, that includes 30-06 for my own Garands as well as .308 for my M1A or my AR10. All this simply means that I personally never had a need for small base sizing dies. So while there may not necessarily be a need for them it sure can't hurt to have them and use them. Just my take on the dies issue.

Next, we can take a look at 30-06 case and chamber specifications.
http://bearblain.com/images/LC%20Chamber%20Test%200.png

Here is what I did. I dug into my piles of once fired GI brass in 30-06 and pulled a LC NM case that was fired in a M1 Garand. I cleaned the case and took some measurements on it. The next image shows the case dropped into a M1 Garand barrel. Call it a "plunk test" less the bullet. :)

http://bearblain.com/images/LC%20Chamber%20Test%201.png

The right image shows the brass before sizing and the right image after sizing. Only minor finger force was used for the left image. I am sure using a hammer I could have seated the case deeper and likely using a really big hammer I could have chambered the case. After resizing the case simply dropped into the chamber. The barrel used was an old take off but was shooting OK and did not have excessive headspace.

So let's take a good look at this once fired case and get some dimensions. I have a few tools to measure case dimensions but keep wandering back to my RCBS Precision Micrometer sets. I have checked them against precision chamber headspace gauges and found them to be quite accurate to within the .001" they are graduated in anyway.

RCBS 30-06 Precision Micrometer Set.
http://bearblain.com/images/LC%20Chamber%20Test%202.png

Loading the case into the gauge.
http://bearblain.com/images/LC%20Chamber%20Test%203.png

Measuring the actual case headspace dimension using the gauge.
http://bearblain.com/images/LC%20Chamber%20Test%204.png

We can see at this point that without resizing this case is not going into any 30-06 chamber that meets specifications. Short of using the big hammer I mentioned earlier this case is not going into any M1 Garand chamber known to mankind. The chamber would need to be beyond the realm of Go, No Go, Field and into the realm of "Dearly beloved we are gathered here today...".

Let's look at the cartridge overall length before we re-size it just to get a reference number.
http://bearblain.com/images/LC%20Chamber%20Test%205.png

Interesting enough is the actual case overall length is within specification. Take a look at the numbers. Remember those numbers as we will see them again.

Now lets look at the cartridge base dimension just about 0.200" up from the base.
http://bearblain.com/images/LC%20Chamber%20Test%206.png

My apologies on this image but believe me we are measuring 0.200" up from the base. Could have done that one better I guess. Anyway, just like the cartridge overall length the base is well within allowable tolerance. Now we will re-size the case using a RCBS FL (Full Length) resizing die.

RCBS FL Resizing Die Set.
http://bearblain.com/images/LC%20Chamber%20Test%207.png

Again, as I mentioned before, I could just as easily use a set of Lee dies. The end result would be the same. Also, at this point, knowing the case base diameter I see no reason to use a small base die as the case base is well within specification. The resizing die is set up according to manufacturer procedure and the case is lubricated with case lube.

So let's see what we have using our case gauge.
http://bearblain.com/images/LC%20Chamber%20Test%208.png

We now have a case that meets headspace specifications for a 30-06 case. Matter of fact we come up about 0.001" short. Not bad at all and likely why the case freely dropped into the chamber in the second image posted. Knowing the cartridge headspace numbers let's see what has become of the cartridge overall length?

Cartridge overall length following FL resizing.
http://bearblain.com/images/LC%20Chamber%20Test%209.png

Interesting as the cartridge overall length did not decrease but actually increased. It not only increased by 0.006" but increased to about 0.001" above specification. This would allow for a nice case trim to exact specification if we so desire.

With everything said and pictured my best guess is that the cases in question are not being properly sized or possibly the cartridge OAL including the bullet on a loaded round is excessive. I would take a sized case and chamber it. Does the bolt go all the way home? Does the rifle go into battery? If you pull the trigger does the rifle go click?

Not pictured and before I forget the final base dimension up 0.200" from the base was 0.4645" or let's call it 0.465" remaining unchanged which would be expected. Since the base was less than 0.4698" to begin with I do not see where a small base die would have mattered in this case.

Just My Take....
Ron

Grumulkin
February 23, 2013, 01:57 PM
I've been trying to figure it out all week. It's like I know what I did, but I don't know exactly what I did. If that makes sense. Started off with the Winchester once-fired brass, didn't have any issues with resizing and made sure the cases were trimmed to the same length, 2.484. I did this like a crazy OCD person.

*Another question- the deburring- am I trying to make sure my bullet can be seated in the neck without tumbling over? I was told at my range that I wasn't crimping correctly- and I wasn't.

Basically what happened was this: run my finger over en bloc to make sure everything was even and sitting well, loaded the clip, let the op rod go. Everything as usual. And then nothing...a round was chambered, but the trigger wasn't going anywhere - thankfully, nothing worse happened. So the gunsmith (who doesn't reload and didn't understand my ramblings about OAL and velocity) removed the trigger assembly and fished out the round. I replaced a new round in the en bloc and it was business as usual. The next round did the same thing. At this point, we cleared the rifle and the gunsmith inspected it.

Nothing off but my rounds. I'm planning on replacing my springs per SlamFire's advice, but now I'm totally paranoid. Do I need a gas plug? Should I only ever load surplus brass? I know my loads are correct, but something seems to be going wrong with my seating process, among other things. I don't get the straight up advice on the range in person because I'm a young-ish person with the X chromosome. Kind of a novelty act, I suppose.

But I appreciate all of the advice that is given here and spend countless hours searching this thread. And if I'm doing anything involving math, science, and physics, then I seriously love it.
Several things:

1. When you closed the bolt and the Garand didn't fire, are you sure the bolt closed all the way? If it closed all the way, then you should have been able to pull the trigger. I also believe that new factory rounds shoot OK?

2. You don't need to crimp Garand rounds. I don't know what you mean by not crimping correctly. If you try to do a roll crimp on a semi auto, you can deform the neck just enough to prevent easy chambering and said deformity won't be apparent on visual inspection (ask me how I know). This could be the cause of your problem. If you feel the need to crimp, and as I said it isn't necessary, I would recommend a Lee Factory Crimp Die which will not deform the neck.

3. Your problem has nothing to do with deburring you cases. If the case length is within SAAMI specs, it has nothing to do with that either.

4. I recently had a problem with my Garand; I was getting closed bolt slam fires only with reloads. I believe the reason was that I wasn't using a small base die to resize the cases and this may be your problem. Until my recent Garand incidents, I never believed a small base die was needed for loading for a semi auto and that is not the first Garand or semi auto I've loaded for.

5. I don't believe changing springs or gas plug is needed.

Trent
February 23, 2013, 02:51 PM
Sorry Trent but I have NEVER had a problem with 30-06 M1 Garand ammo bulging brass, not ever. It's not a problem with the M1 so i see no reason to spend money on a set of dies that are not needed.

I only brought it up because a lot of the milsurp 30-06 and even a load of commercial 30-06 might have been fired through a 1919 that wasn't headspaced properly. It happens. :)

He didn't specify before if he'd bought 1x from somewhere and was reloading it, or bought new brass, or picked up some at the range, or whatever.

Reloadron
February 23, 2013, 04:10 PM
I only brought it up because a lot of the milsurp 30-06 and even a load of commercial 30-06 might have been fired through a 1919 that wasn't headspaced properly. It happens. :)

He didn't specify before if he'd bought 1x from somewhere and was reloading it, or bought new brass, or picked up some at the range, or whatever.
Hi Trent, but would it matter? Take a look at the piece of brass I used in my example. The before resizing dimensions were way out of specifications. However, when that same piece of brass was correctly re-sized it came right into specification. Just about perfect by spec.

This is why my best guess, with what we know, is that the brass was incorrectly sized. That assuming a good in specification chamber that was clean.

Ron

cfullgraf
February 23, 2013, 04:38 PM
Hi Trent, but would it matter? Take a look at the piece of brass I used in my example. The before resizing dimensions were way out of specifications. However, when that same piece of brass was correctly re-sized it came right into specification. Just about perfect by spec.

This is why my best guess, with what we know, is that the brass was incorrectly sized. That assuming a good in specification chamber that was clean.

Ron

You can end up with a sum of tolerances that puts a resized case out of spec even though the die is properly made and the chamber properly cut.

While not 30-06, I have a standard 223 Remington sizer die that will not size cases fired in one of my rifles to chamber in another. But, if the resized cases get chambered in the rifle they were fired in, the chamber just fine.

Also, I have gotten some 308 Win cases that I suspect were fired in a machine gun. My standard 308 Win sizer die will not resize the base enough to chamber in my M1A while cases fired in my M1A then resized will chamber.

I have never had an issue with chambering after I went to small base sizing for my M1A and AR-15s.

I have not had an issue with any of several Garands, yet. I do know that all of my once fired cases were originally fired in a Garand.

The point that I am trying to get across, and I believe Trent is on the same page, insufficient resizing of the base area of the case can be an issue and is most frequently passed off as something else. It is not as common as other chambering problems and a majority of folks have never experienced it including some folks with years of experience.

I recommend folks that do not have dies for an M1, an M1A or an AR-15, get a small base resized die and eliminate the potential problem.

If they already have dies, continue with them but be aware of the potential problem. Make the decision to get, or not get, a small base resizer die at a later time.

Reloadron
February 23, 2013, 05:21 PM
Hi Ya cfullgraf,

Oh, I agree absolutely...
The point that I am trying to get across, and I believe Trent is on the same page, insufficient resizing of the base area of the case can be an issue and is most frequently passed off as something else. It is not as common as other chambering problems and a majority of folks have never experienced it including some folks with years of experience.

The fact that I have never had a need for small base dies or run into some of the situations mentioned just means I have never had a need for them. Small base dies in .223, .308 and 30-06 are indeed on my list of must haves as I move into retirement and finally will have the time to really get back into my hand loading and more important experimenting with case sizing and loading. If someone is buying their first set of .223, .308 or 30-06 dies to reload for a semi-automatic rifle, especially a military style rifle, why not buy small base dies?

Also interesting is your own personal experience mentioned. Things like what happened to you with .223 just fascinate me. The classic "why the heck did it do that" prevails. Then we get on like these quest. :)

Ron

Trent
February 23, 2013, 06:11 PM
I didn't need small base dies for the first 15 years I reloaded, until I ran across that 8mm I couldn't size correctly with a full length sizer.

The point I was trying to make, is if you ARE sizing it correctly with a full length sizer and even push it (to the point the die is making hard contact with the shell holder and you can't get another .00001 out of it) and it STILL isn't chambering.... it's time for a small base die. That's going to be the only way to get the web back in spec.

With the enormous amount of 1919's that have hit the market over the last few years, with so many people bolting cranks on them and blasting away until they go broke, it is just a matter of time before that brass hits the market.

When it does, if they didn't know how to set up their 1919 properly, you're going to NEED a small base sizer for 30-06 once fired you buy off the internet. If those aren't headspaced properly, every case is going to have expansion around the web.

Previously (before a few years ago when 1919's started selling like crazy) the ONLY brass you'd ever really run across were CMP once-fired out of Garands and '03's.

So, I am assuming he was sizing properly with is full length sizer (it's tough to mess THAT up), and since his "new" brass wasn't working, I offered the one piece of advice that I knew would entirely, irrevocably fix the issue. :)

If you enjoyed reading about "How much is too much to pay for Garand brass?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!