Private Face To Face Firearm Sale - What am I required to do?


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2@low8
February 23, 2013, 02:23 AM
I am going to sell a rifle and a pistol FTF to someone in Mississippi that I don’t know. What am I required to find out and or verify, if anything, before letting them take possession? Specifically, do they have to prove that they are a resident and that there are no prohibitions to them having a firearm? Or anything else...?

What information am I required to give the buyers?

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docnyt
February 23, 2013, 02:29 AM
It would help if you put your state/location as there are some that require you go through a licensed dealer, FOID, etc.

In most free states, you just have to be residents of the same state and not be a felon. Some would advocate a bill of sale for your own protection.

2@low8
February 23, 2013, 02:46 AM
Clarified my original post - thanks docnyt.

docnyt
February 23, 2013, 03:04 AM
I believe your state does not require anything specifically outside of what I mentioned. Similar to Alabama (my state), I would just ask that the buyer verify that he does not have any disqualifications to possessing a firearm, both show driver licenses, a gentlemanly handshake, transfer of payment, and you're both on your way.

chris in va
February 23, 2013, 03:46 AM
I always ask to see their concealed carry permit and driver's license.

You cannot knowingly sell a firearm to someone that is otherwise not allowed to possess one by law. As a responsible gun owner it is your duty to do everything you can to prevent this. A CCP is a fairly good indicator they are not a felon, unless they became one after being issued. If there is ANY sense that something is amiss, walk away.

If you want to be sure just have an FFL do the transfer.

thorazine
February 23, 2013, 04:23 AM
I always ask to see their concealed carry permit and driver's license.

Same.

When I am the seller I will indicate in my advertisement concealed carry permit preferred (per buyer) but not required.

All but one time the buyer had one.

I never do a bill of sale so I only take a glance at their credentials.

Then...

Exchange money for goods.
BS about guns, etc.
Shake hands and drive away happy.

When the role is reversed I am more than happy to flash my credentials (DL / concealed weapons permit).

But of course state laws vary and that was in FL.

willypete
February 23, 2013, 04:35 AM
Eesh. I just ask to see cash.

I've never had anyone request to see a DL or HCP.

Cash is king, money talks, etc.

Of course, I also hold the view that government interference in personal transactions is amoral and should be illegal.

If you feel you have a duty to vet someone's credentials, so be it.

Sam1911
February 23, 2013, 05:11 AM
You are required to not "know, or have reason to know" that the other person is prohibited from possessing a firearm, or that they do not reside in your state.

Whether you ask them verbally, ask to see credentials, ask to see a CCW license, hire a private investigator to check up on them, make them do the transfer at an FFL, ... or none of the above... is up to you.

Ehtereon11B
February 23, 2013, 05:33 AM
Making a bill of sale is more of a cover your *** step anyway. While there is no law that says you have to make one, I usually do just to cover myself from potential problems. Photo copy buyer DL next to mine. Hand scribe the weapon make, model, serial number. Both sign, make a copy. Money. Have a good day. Did the same with an old car I sold for parts.

TwoEyedJack
February 23, 2013, 11:20 AM
The only thing I ever ask to see is cash. Of course I have chosen to live in a relatively free state. Your mileage may vary.

2@low8
February 23, 2013, 12:04 PM
On one hand I don’t want to put a firearm into the possession of someone who wants to do harm to innocent people and on the other hand I hate the intrusiveness of government into our private lives.

I also worry that these guns I’m going to sell have 4473 forms with my name on them and if I am not able to verify who the persons I sold them to are it might come back to bite me in the butt or at least give me a hassle I don’t need.

Selling to someone I know would solve the problem, but I keep my circle of gun friends tight and they are not in need or desire of anything I want to sell.

What I think would ideally be in MY best interest would be to get info from the buyer and not supply any info of my own. I wouldn’t buy a firearm that way, but in these times it just might be totally a seller’ market.

Sam1911
February 23, 2013, 12:14 PM
On one hand I don’t want to put a firearm into the possession of someone who wants to do harm to innocent people and on the other hand I hate the intrusiveness of government into our private lives.Understood, but there are no guarantees about anyone. Many of the worst mass-murderers have been able to buy a gun over-the counter, filling out the 4473 honestly, etc. You simply cannot pin your own comfort about selling to what someone might do. There's no way to know, and we surely should trust the vast ... VAST ... number of our fellow gun folks to be perfectly honorable, safe, non-murderous people. That's the basis of our belief that all people should be armed until they've PROVED that they no longer warrant the trust of society and must be imprisoned and have their rights curtailed.

I also worry that these guns I’m going to sell have 4473 forms with my name on them and if I am not able to verify who the persons I sold them to are it might come back to bite me in the butt or at least give me a hassle I don’t need.It is possible, with quite a bit of effort, for a trace of a gun recovered in a crime to be followed back to you -- sometimes. (But not always...or even often.)

If it does, all you must do is say, "I sold it, following the laws of this state and country. I'm sorry, no, I don't know the buyer's name or address. Have a nice day."

Actually, all you HAVE to say is, "Am I under arrest? No? Ok then, I decline to discuss any matters with you officers, have a fine day." (Or, "...decline to discuss...without counsel present..." if you want to be helpful.) But some folks like to go the extra mile. :)

If you feel a duty to be able to provide a name and address for the buyer if an investigator does someday show up, a bill of sale could give you that...or at least record what he TOLD you at the time.

What I think would ideally be in MY best interest would be to get info from the buyer and not supply any info of my own. I wouldn’t buy a firearm that way, but in these times it just might be totally a seller’ market.Well, that's your right. You own the property and may place whatever restrictions on the sale you wish. The buyer may do the same. If you can agree to some compromise on each other's demands that suits both of you, make the sale. If not, put the gun back in the safe and carry on.

JoePfeiffer
February 23, 2013, 04:52 PM
You say the buyer is in Mississippi, but if you explicitly said you're also in Mississippi I missed it. If you're not also a Mississippi resident, it needs to go through a FFL.

SSN Vet
February 23, 2013, 09:18 PM
Count the money :)

answerguy
February 23, 2013, 09:33 PM
Actually, all you HAVE to say is, "Am I under arrest? No? Ok then, I decline to discuss any matters with you officers, have a fine day." (Or, "...decline to discuss...without counsel present..."

And as you slam the door in the cops face they'll be saying "Well looks like we found our guy".

2@low8
February 23, 2013, 09:33 PM
Sam1911 - “… there are no guarantees about anyone. Many of the worst mass-murderers have been able to buy a gun over-the counter, filling out the 4473 honestly, etc. You simply cannot pin your own comfort about selling to what someone might do. There's no way to know, and we surely should trust the vast ... VAST ... number of our fellow gun folks to be perfectly honorable, safe, non-murderous people. That's the basis of our belief that all people should be armed until they've PROVED that they no longer warrant the trust of society and must be imprisoned and have their rights curtailed.”

Also understood, but my 12 years as a LEO, 6 years in uniform patrol & 6 years in homicide, still has me looking for bad guys in all the nooks and crannies… occupational hazard I’m afraid. It’s the reason why I’m forever excused from jury duty. My criterion for guilt is “probable cause” and not “beyond a reasonable doubt”. The lesser criteria of “reasonable suspicion” or just suspicion fires up my investigative engine.

I might add that being on the “other side”, civilian, has drastically changed my perspective of law enforcement. I am fiercely libertarian in my views because now I have the big picture on how law enforcement works… sometimes you can’t see the forest for the trees. I apologize for going off topic and I won’t continue this discussion here. Perhaps in the “Legal” forum at a later date.

Sam1911 - “You own the property and may place whatever restrictions on the sale you wish. The buyer may do the same. If you can agree to some compromise on each other's demands that suits both of you, make the sale. If not, put the gun back in the safe and carry on."

That about sums it up for me. Now I just have to wrestle with my conscience.

Thanks to all of you for your input…..Frankie

Art Eatman
February 23, 2013, 09:43 PM
There is a practical limit to figuring out whether or not to sell to a prospective buyer. After all, Charles Whitman would have passed the NICS test.

Sam1911
February 23, 2013, 09:44 PM
And as you slam the door in the cops face they'll be saying "Well looks like we found our guy".LOL. And...all we have to do is find some evidence that he was in the city where the crime happened on that day, actually present at the crime scene when it happened, knew the deceased and/or had some kind of motive for the crime, and ... you know, like, DID IT. But since he doesn't want to answer questions without counsel, I'm sure that's all a moot point -- he's clearly our man!

Killian
February 23, 2013, 09:50 PM
I dislike showing someone where I live by handing them my DL. By showing up I've already announced I'm a gun owner. Now I'm giving them a map to my house. If they are a criminal intent on murder, I've also told them where to come to eliminate any witness (me) if they should use the gun they purchased from me for a bad purpose. And nowadays there is too much someone can do with identity information to think it is a good idea to share it with someone else that isn't the bank or a govt official.

Sam1911
February 23, 2013, 09:53 PM
One of my favorite suggestions (though I've never used it) is to arrange the face-to-face transfer in the parking lot of the local Police Department. Theory being not too many felons would be likely to be real comfortable going there (as buyers OR sellers) so maybe that eases up the pressure to require a look at their ID.

2@low8
February 23, 2013, 10:12 PM
Killian - “I dislike showing someone where I live by handing them my DL. By showing up I've already announced I'm a gun owner. Now I'm giving them a map to my house. If they are a criminal intent on murder, I've also told them where to come to eliminate any witness (me) if they should use the gun they purchased from me for a bad purpose. And nowadays there is too much someone can do with identity information to think it is a good idea to share it with someone else that isn't the bank or a govt official.”

This is exactly what I had on my mind in my post #11: “What I think would ideally be in MY best interest would be to get info from the buyer and not supply any info of my own.”

Averageman
February 23, 2013, 10:49 PM
You could also just call the local Chief of Police and say, "Hey, I'm selling this handgun." I'm sure it being Mississppi he is gun friendly and will be willing and able to answer any questions you might have.
Conduct the Sale in the Police Station Parking Lot and if he doesn't hesitate at that I certainly wouldn't worry.

tyeo098
February 23, 2013, 11:10 PM
Can I see your DL to verify state of residence and 18+? (take peek)
After that I'll usually ask to see a CCW or Voters Reg (felon wont have either)

No bill of sale, no copying anything down. Just a peek.

Then count the money.

Everyone I've always met was super polite and professional. No one had any problems with me taking a peek at their creds.

Yotacrawler
February 23, 2013, 11:20 PM
I do a lot of face to face selling and buying. I always ask for DL or ccdw. I always look at their plate as well. If anything doesnt feel right i bail. If I'm buying a gun the second money exchanges hands and the gun is in my possession I take a picture of the s/n with my phone and usually send it to my girlfriend or my brother in law if she doesn't need to know about it. It geotags it for time and location. If there's ever any questions at least you have more than words to go by.

bogon48
February 23, 2013, 11:31 PM
I will buy and sell to friends and family. For other sales, a local gun store handles the exchange by adding to the price of my firearm. They post the ad on the Internet and arrange FFL transfers. Works well for me. I lose nothing and my conscience is easy.

Of course, here in VA you can sell or buy privately without restriction. But who wants to sell to someone who'll use the gun on you or yours?

I've been in a pawn shop and gun store when people got rejected during the instant background check we use here in VA. The buyers both looked O.K. Yet one was a convicted felon released from prison. Not sure about the other guy because I didn't hear the whole conversation. He wanted an AK-47 and was "stoked" about getting one of those "bad boys." But he probably didn't get rejected for missing Sunday school. IMHO, we gotta keep guns away from these guys.

michaelbsc
February 24, 2013, 12:59 AM
Can I see your DL to verify state of residence and 18+? (take peek)
After that I'll usually ask to see a CCW or Voters Reg (felon wont have either)

No bill of sale, no copying anything down. Just a peek.

Then count the money.

Everyone I've always met was super polite and professional. No one had any problems with me taking a peek at their creds.

Just a concealed carry permit or a voters registration. No need for a DL. The permit or voter ID confirms residence. Unless the buyer is lying, in which case you'll never know because they're presenting valid credentials. At least I couldn't tell the difference if the credentials appear valid. I guess I could if they're obvious fakes, but I'd back away then.

I concur about no bill of sale or anything else. The government doesn't require record keeping, so don't open Pandora's box by starting a paper trail that they can demand if it exists. If it doesn't exist, they can't ask for it. If it does exist, you can't refuse to turn it over if ordered by a court. You aren't running a gun business. Don't make it complicated.

If it ever comes up you can say honestly, "I sold it." By the end of five or ten years you truthfully won't remember the details anyway. By the time your hair is gray you might not even remember which gun it was.

You still haven't confirmed that you're in Mississippi too. Used to live in Vicksburg myself.

thorazine
February 24, 2013, 05:16 AM
Just wanted to make one additional note:

If you require a bill of sale please clearly state it in your advertisement.

Nothing is more annoying than meeting up to do a deal and having the seller whip out a BOS when there wasn't any mention of it before. :cuss:

Sam1911
February 24, 2013, 07:48 AM
YES! If you have conditions, PLAINLY STATE THEM in the ad. I'd be pretty hot under the collar if I drove some distance to meet you and then you demanded to see my friggin' voter registration card!

Blackhawk30
February 24, 2013, 07:06 PM
Hand over the money.
Leave.

K0ZZZ
February 24, 2013, 08:52 PM
Photocopy of drivers license? Welcome to identity theft or worse.

Airbrush Artist
February 24, 2013, 08:59 PM
If He has a Obama Shirt on Drop the price a Little...

bushmaster1313
February 24, 2013, 11:13 PM
Personally, I would be spooked to do a face to face with someone I did not know.

orionengnr
February 24, 2013, 11:46 PM
Check the laws in your state, and let your conscience be your guide...if you have one.

Apparently, a significant number of posters in this thread do not...and that will invariably lead to further legislation.

That, in and of itself, is disturbing...but utterly predictable.

2@low8
February 25, 2013, 12:16 AM
I thought it was understood in post #1 that I am a resident of Mississippi. but let me be clear now that I am. Sorry if there was any ambiguity…..Frankie

Deer_Freak
February 25, 2013, 12:52 AM
Here in NC we have ALE agents trying to trick people into making bad sales. If you feel weird about the deal go through an FFL to cover your butt. I don't sell guns to strangers without an FFL.

JoePfeiffer
February 25, 2013, 01:59 AM
I thought it was understood in post #1 that I am a resident of Mississippi. but let me be clear now that I am. Sorry if there was any ambiguity
Well, it wasn't clear to me, anyway. With that established, my understanding is federal law doesn't require the FFL.

michaelbsc
February 25, 2013, 02:49 AM
Wrecked the edit.

CapnMac
February 25, 2013, 03:40 AM
Personally, I would be spooked to do a face to face with someone I did not know

Almost all of my FTF (save only one) have been among THR members. This has been a sizable advantage in that "we" are a pretty upstanding bunch. It's also meant that there were a number of PM/email to sort out arrangements and details. And, in that communication, you can learn things about people.

In all but one of those transactions were in a neutral location--mostly due to the need for both parties to traverse Central Texas. Virtually every time turned into the same sort of gab session that will crop up here (and epitomizes the "high road" we hold here, IMO).

Sam1911
February 25, 2013, 05:43 AM
let your conscience be your guide...if you have one.

Apparently, a significant number of posters in this thread do not...and that will invariably lead to further legislation.

That, in and of itself, is disturbing...but utterly predictable.I know, right?

How so many posters' consciences will allow them to play the government's game of suspicion and "checking up" on their fellow gun guys, I'll just never understand! My conscience won't allow me to go one step further than the law requires!

NavyLCDR
February 25, 2013, 08:51 AM
Check the laws in your state, and let your conscience be your guide...if you have one.

Apparently, a significant number of posters in this thread do not...and that will invariably lead to further legislation.

That, in and of itself, is disturbing...but utterly predictable.

What would your conscience tell you to do if you were selling a car? More people are killed every year from the criminal use of a vehicle than the criminal use of a gun.

ford8nr
February 25, 2013, 09:24 AM
If I'm buying FTF I request a receipt with serial number and sellers name. If I'm selling I'll provide a receipt if requested. The only reason for the receipt is that someone doesn't report the gun stolen at some point and I have no way to prove I purchased it. The reciept only contains SN, price and SELLERS name. That's the same reason I won't provide or show the entire SN in any add I post.

beatledog7
February 25, 2013, 09:33 AM
You have to do two things:

1. Face the risk that the buyer is a government employee tasked to persuade people to commit crimes.

2. Live with your conscience, in whatever way you do that.

I'm not saying FTF sale is bad: far from it. But it is not a given that the guy you didn't ID does not have a nefarious purpose in mind for his new gun.

dogtown tom
February 25, 2013, 10:51 AM
bogon48......I've been in a pawn shop and gun store when people got rejected during the instant background check we use here in VA. The buyers both looked O.K. Yet one was a convicted felon released from prison.....
How did you learn one buyer was a convicted felon?:scrutiny:
NICS does not give a reason for a denial during the instant check.

If he answered truthfully on the 4473 the transaction should have been cancelled before the NICS check.

NavyLCDR
February 25, 2013, 11:00 AM
2. Live with your conscience, in whatever way you do that.

I'm not saying FTF sale is bad: far from it. But it is not a given that the guy you didn't ID does not have a nefarious purpose in mind for his new gun.

If Adam Lanza were 21 years old, do you think that he would hesitate to show you an ID and sign a receipt for a gun in a private sale? I don't think he would hesitate one second. Now you have a receipt with his name on it for the gun he bought from you the he used to shoot up a school with. Even if a person shows you a Concealed Weapons Permit, how do you know it is real and still valid? And then, how do you know that person you sell the gun to, after satisfying you conscience, isn't going to be unhappy with the gun and just sell it to the first person that answers their ad on gunbroker or in the newspaper?

And again, would you hesitate to sell a vehicle in a private sale without a background check? How do you know the person buying the vehicle isn't an alcoholic who isn't going to drive to the bar that night and kill someone driving drunk on the way home? Or use that vehicle to drive to a school to shoot it up?

marv
February 25, 2013, 11:30 PM
Check your state laws for restrictions. If none, go to BATF website read/print their regulations for unlicensed person to unlicensed person transfer and abide by those.

NavyLCDR
February 26, 2013, 10:45 AM
Check your state laws for restrictions. If none, go to BATF website read/print their regulations for unlicensed person to unlicensed person transfer and abide by those.

It would actually be much better to know what the actual law says rather than what is posted on a BATFE website.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

18 USC 922 (a)(5) - state residency
18 USC 922 (d) - prohibited persons
18 USC 922 (x) - 18 year old age limit for transfer of handguns

are just about the only Federal sections that apply to day-to-day private sales of firearms.

zorro45
February 26, 2013, 11:15 AM
Personally I have noted with interest that two of my favorite local gun shops have gotten into a world of do-do with the ATF from a sale where there was an untoward outcome afterwards. I don't have a crystal ball, and it is really hard to predict human behavior. For me it is just cleaner to go through an FFL and let him deal with it. I don't live in a free state.

gym
February 26, 2013, 11:57 AM
Just to be redundant, ask if they are allowed to own a weapon, and that they have an ID from your state. Some don't ask anything, some won't answer anything. It's your call. If there is no reason to think they should not be prohibited and they say they aren't then you fulfilled your obligation.
People are funny, most won't fill out a bill of sale or give you a copy of anything these days, can't blame them with all the ID theft going on.

sleepyone
February 26, 2013, 01:17 PM
If anything doesnt feel right i bail.

Yotacrawler, have you ever bailed on a transaction; buy or sell?

Just asking because I have never had to, yet. Every person I have done business with has appeared to be of sound mind and body. I've had a few who were a little out there with their conspiracy theories, SHTF scenarios and black helicopter sightings, but they did not appear to be methheads or gangbangers either. Just people who have VERY strong beliefs about the government and the impending apocalypse. :eek:

I enjoy the interaction during a FTF and I ALWAYS show up with another firearm besides the one I am selling or buying if you know what I mean. :D

Oh, I have also resorted to requiring Bills of Sale for both buying and selling and seeing an ID just because so much is up in the air in D.C. It goes in my safe deposit box at the bank and hopefully is never needed. I don't really care what people have to say about I'm going above and beyond what the law requires. It's a voluntary transaction on both ends. I'm not about to leave myself and my family's welfare hanging with nothing to back my story but my word should someone actually commit a crime with a gun that I sold. I like the analogy about using a bill of sale to buy or sell a car even though we know that a BOS is required to convey title to a car; whereas, it is not YET required on private gun sales.

Warp
February 26, 2013, 01:45 PM
I have sold four firearms face to face. I did not even ask them for ID. I had a gun. They had a cash. I had no reason to believe they were a prohibited person. I believed they were residents of the same state as myself, which is where the transaction took place. I got cash, they got a gun.

As long as you abide by the law, it's up to you to decide how you want to handle it.

The above is good enough for me.

Now, of course, I use good sense and wouldn't have a problem asking people for more if something about it or them made me hesitant. And I'm not above simply changing my mind and declining sale once we meet. But that hasn't been an issue yet.

beatledog7
February 26, 2013, 03:32 PM
LCDR,

Of course IDing someone gives you no guarantee that he's not getting ready to go shoot up a school. But IDing him at least gives you some legal cover. The simple fact is, even if you're an FFL and the person passes NICS, you have no guarantee what his or her intentions are.

thorazine
February 27, 2013, 03:29 AM
Just go by post count or join date. =D

The lower the post count or the newer the member then be a little more suspicious.



Example:

If it is one of the more well trusted members like Sam I wouldn't even bother counting the money after he hands it over. :D

I would probably be too caught up BS'ing with the guy to even think twice about it.

Art Eatman
February 27, 2013, 12:40 PM
Been answered. Let the poor old horse die in peace. :D

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