Our own worst enemy?


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Coyote3855
February 23, 2013, 11:47 AM
Wyoming pro gun bills go up in smoke. Two bills die an administrative death because of "abusive, profane, and threatening" comments by pro gun group.

http://www.wyomingnews.com/articles/2013/02/23/news/19local_02-23-13.txt

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blarby
February 23, 2013, 11:51 AM
Nuge-a-mania spreads to our detriment frequently.

My sympathies for your loss.....

OptimusPrime
February 23, 2013, 11:52 AM
Agents provocateur? :scrutiny:

HOOfan_1
February 23, 2013, 01:23 PM
Odd, that that same type of behavior by the antis actually seems to make legislators listen though.....

Calling the NRA a hate organization, saying that legislators are in the NRA's pocket...etc. etc.

mnhntr
February 23, 2013, 03:24 PM
Sounds like this guy is a coward to me. He should have commended the group for calling out the left wing loons.

yokel
February 23, 2013, 05:23 PM
We all know that the treachery, deception, and brazen insouciance of the gun control & confiscation clique knows no bounds, so it's understandable that some well-meaning patriots have been made tired, sated, or disgusted beyond endurance.

Furncliff
February 23, 2013, 06:46 PM
Yea try puffery that might work.

Spymaster
February 23, 2013, 07:14 PM
Odd, that that same type of behavior by the antis actually seems to make legislators listen though.....

Calling the NRA a hate organization, saying that legislators are in the NRA's pocket...etc. etc.
Exactly! The bums who submarined the bill should pay with their careers. For God's sake, we have editors of large newspapers calling for the murder of anyone who opposes gun confiscation, and in WY repubs are shelving pro-gun bills due to harsh language?

There is not a republican anywhere that I will ever vote for again.

HorseSoldier
February 23, 2013, 07:54 PM
We all know that the treachery, deception, and brazen insouciance of the gun control & confiscation clique knows no bounds, so it's understandable that some well-meaning patriots have been made tired, sated, or disgusted beyond endurance.

Or we could just call a spade a spade and admit that our side has some serious wingnuts among its ranks, too (and our wingnuts, given they define themselves partly by access to weapons, might be more frightening to the social herd at large).

That said I suspect that advocacy for these bills by wingnuts had less to do with their dying in committee than the much more troubling implications of letting a nullification bill go to vote where it was likely to pass. This is the stuff civil wars are made of, and I can understand even a Republican in a pro-gun state, worrying about throwing that into the mix.

JRH6856
February 23, 2013, 11:18 PM
^^^This!

bogon48
February 24, 2013, 12:17 AM
+1 on Horsesoldier's comments.

I support the NRA because they have a national voice that is actually heard by some legislators.

I also try to listen carefully to antigun people. I am friends with a couple of them. What I often hear is an undercurrent of fear that feeds their extreme views. It's not based on direct knowledge or reason. I remain calm, logical and offer solid facts. If they don't want to listen or try shooting or inspect a firearm...that's O.K. I'll ask again some day. Attitudes aren't changed by yelling or insults. In the end, our cause is best served by patience and the persistent presentation of our arguments. Crazy rhetoric isn't helpful.

Joke & Dagger
February 24, 2013, 12:22 AM
I don't trust a word out of the mouth of a politician or news organization.

yokel
February 24, 2013, 12:00 PM
It is dispiriting see some folks overly concerned about offending/wounding the sensibilities of those who would condone the criminal prosecution of upstanding gun owners simply for exercising their natural right to self-defense with the firearm and magazine size of their choice.

We must challenge ourselves and each other to think and act as if these delusional extremists have put our Liberty -our very lives- in peril.

The time for apathy and appeasement must end and the time for serious change must start.

tgzzzz
February 24, 2013, 12:32 PM
Agents provocateur? :scrutiny:
Why not? Pretty effective.


Spymaster: ... For God's sake, we have editors of large newspapers calling for the murder of anyone who opposes gun confiscation, and in WY repubs are shelving pro-gun bills due to harsh language?

Could we have a cite for this comment?

Kayaker 1960
February 24, 2013, 01:00 PM
I agree with a few of the other posters here that we gun owners are best served by reasonable conversation on gun issues, I'm not saying give in, I'm saying that chest thumping and posting pictures of yourself trying to look like Rambo is scary to the non-gun owning crowd and even moderate gun owners. Hell, some of you scare me!
How about we try to show people that we are not a bunch of nut jobs itching to shoot somebody? "From my cold dead hands" sounds reasonable to us but it scares the hell out of some folks. Stick to the facts. I have a lot of freinds who don't own guns, I've talked about it with them and many have told me that they feel fine with me owning a gun, and they know that I have one anytime we are on an overnight trip (whitewater kayaking, that is a lot of trips) they are worried about the nut jobs as much as the criminals. Don't be a nut job!

mljdeckard
February 24, 2013, 01:05 PM
I don't believe for one second that he let the deadline lapse because of profane phone calls. They get profane activism on every issue every day. This is a guy who WANTED to let it fail, and he just got an easy excuse.

HOOfan_1
February 24, 2013, 01:12 PM
We aren't going to be able to weed out all the nut jobs....ther are 80 million gun owners. The antis have plenty of nut jobs on their side. I have never heard any legislators say they won't even consider a bill because the anti crowd was being too annoying....

Seems to me legislators have an obligation to not let that type of behavior influence legislation....it isn't fair to those of us who can act like a civil human being. Sorry, but this whole affair sounds like a big excuse not to have to debate these bills. I don't doubt that whether there were threats or not, that these bills would have never made it to the floor.

After the entire Hans Hunt incident, and now this....I am not sure the Wyoming legislators are exactly acting as they should....

jwh336
February 24, 2013, 01:24 PM
It's not difficult to toss on the correct attire and intentionally act like a bufoon.

montanaoffroader
February 24, 2013, 02:12 PM
i don't believe for one second that he let the deadline lapse because of profane phone calls. They get profane activism on every issue every day. This is a guy who wanted to let it fail, and he just got an easy excuse.

^^^^^^^^^
I agree 100%. The guy was just looking for an excuse, any excuse.

JRWhit
February 24, 2013, 02:21 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Smell test failed. The idea that he would let a bill fail as punishment to a small group of screamers is beyond the pail of Bull Crap.

alsaqr
February 24, 2013, 02:45 PM
Smell test failed. The idea that he would let a bill fail as punishment to a small group of screamers is beyond the pail of Bull Crap.

This^^^^^^^^

Ky Larry
February 24, 2013, 03:01 PM
Remember, all political prostitutes are owned by special interest groups. This guy was just doing what his owners told him to do.

HorseSoldier
February 24, 2013, 05:07 PM
It is dispiriting see some folks overly concerned about offending/wounding the sensibilities of those who would condone the criminal prosecution of upstanding gun owners simply for exercising their natural right to self-defense with the firearm and magazine size of their choice.

We don't win the fight on the 2nd Amendment by declaring it a natural right, discussion over, and going home. The 94 AWB and assorted other negative pieces of gun legislation should demonstrate that beyond any reasonable shadow of a doubt to everyone even remotely interested in preserving the 2A (because you can be certain that those interesting in eradicating the 2A have).

We win this fight by out marketing or out psy-op'ing the other guy -- and we don't do that by scaring, bullying, or intimidating the sheeple into submission, either intentionally or unintentionally. Guns scare the gun-naive in the middle who could break for us or against us. Ratcheting up their fear pushes them into the anti-camp. Co-opting them and bringing them into our camp requires more sophisticated and restrained strategies. Personally, I'd trade a couple stadiums full of Ted Nugent clones and gun owning good ole boys (who I might really enjoy socializing with, but that's besides the point) for the three and a half minutes this lady (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vn7bkncf1_E#!) brings to the gun debate if my interest is in winning this fight rather than going down in defeat while warmed by my moral righteousness.

yokel
February 24, 2013, 06:40 PM
We win this fight by out marketing or out psy-op'ing the other guy -- and we don't do that by scaring, bullying, or intimidating the sheeple into submission, either intentionally or unintentionally.

Well, isn't "sheeple" considered patronising, derogatory speech and indicates an arrogant attitude and bearing with an underling with barely concealed contempt?

Please don't try to lecture me about the gentle art of persuasion, as I happen to have the personal charisma of a cactus.

Kayaker 1960
February 24, 2013, 07:36 PM
One of my best freinds is from New York, His lovely wife is from New Jersey. Both of them are jewish. Niether of them grew up with a gun in the house. They were not exposed to guns at all except for what they saw on T.V. and movies.
Now they live in N. California. Not exactly the wild west but more so than New York. I have had a few discussions with them about guns, my views on gun control and my view that I have not only a right but a responsibility to protect my family from harm if possible. We have been together when the presence of a gun, even though it was never unholstered likely saved us all from at least a strong arm robbery.
I've offered to take them shooting any time they like, just ask and I've extended the offer more than once, but not enough to be pushy.
I don't think of my freinds as "Sheeple" they grew up different than I did, that's all. They are intellegent and educated and they can think for themselves. Fortunately they have me and and few other freinds to show them that many if not most gun owners are reasonable, responsible and safe.
Every time someone shoots a road sign or leaves shot up beer cans in the forest or in any way makes people have a negative attutude toward gun owners it hurts all of us. We should all try to be a good example of what and who gun owners are.

2ifbyC
February 24, 2013, 08:48 PM
There is considerable hypocrisy in the legislative process and we as gun owners are held to a higher level of standard when speaking out to defend our rights. And so it goes.

Verbally abusing our representatives will not will this fight. Letting our emotions rule our judgment will not win this fight. Pointing to other groups using similar tactics will not win this fight.

We are up against many who believe both the inanimate object, the gun, as well as its user are the cause of too much violence. Letís only allow the gun owner to become the center of focus in a positive sense.

Fighting the good fight is not easy but it is essential.

Spymaster
February 25, 2013, 12:25 AM
We aren't going to be able to weed out all the nut jobs....ther are 80 million gun owners. The antis have plenty of nut jobs on their side. I have never heard any legislators say they won't even consider a bill because the anti crowd was being too annoying....

Seems to me legislators have an obligation to not let that type of behavior influence legislation....it isn't fair to those of us who can act like a civil human being. Sorry, but this whole affair sounds like a big excuse not to have to debate these bills. I don't doubt that whether there were threats or not, that these bills would have never made it to the floor.

After the entire Hans Hunt incident, and now this....I am not sure the Wyoming legislators are exactly acting as they should....
Thats an understatement, the anti's are nut-jobs!

Deer_Freak
February 25, 2013, 01:45 AM
It was pretty clear in the article that one bill was allowed to expire because it created a problem with federal supremacy laws. The nasty phone calls did not help matters a bit.

We are our own worst enemies as far as protecting the second amendment. As mentioned earlier lots of gun owners set a bad example. Most grass roots organizations will run off anyone who loves freedom and the second amendment but they don't agree with the republican platform.

Gun owners need to get our act together as a group. We need to be more tolerant of people who have a (D) beside their name but are willing to spend their time and money to defend the second amendment.

gulogulo1970
February 25, 2013, 02:14 AM
We own weapons, we are feared by some. We must show restraint with our words and actions. We are held to a higher standard. I believe that is why the High Road exists why it doesn't put up with any foolishness.

Frank Ettin
February 25, 2013, 03:32 AM
We own weapons, we are feared by some. We must show restraint with our words and actions. We are held to a higher standard....An very appropriate observation. A "wing-nut" with a gun is perceived as very different from a "wing-nut" without one.

Well, isn't "sheeple" considered patronising, derogatory speech and indicates an arrogant attitude and bearing with an underling with barely concealed contempt?It indeed is and should be avoided. We need to better learn how to make friends.

We have to take more seriously our need to be good ambassadors for shooting and gun ownership -- dispelling the negative stereotypes many members of the public have of gun owners.

It's fashionable to blame politicians for restrictive gun laws. But politicians are interested in getting elected and re-elected. So what it really comes down to is our neighbors, the people in our communities, the people in our towns, the people we work with, the people we see at the mall, etc. If enough of our neighbors, enough of the people in our communities, enough of the people in our towns, enough of the people we work with, enough of the people we see at the mall, etc., don't like guns, and don't trust the rest of us with them, politicians who take anti-gun stands can get elected and re-elected (and bureaucrats who take anti-gun stands can keep their jobs).

So we need to remember that part of the battle to keep our guns needs to start with our neighbors, the people in our communities, the people in our towns, the people we work with, the people we see at the mall, etc.

Ankeny
February 25, 2013, 11:28 AM
Or we could just call a spade a spade and admit that our side has some serious wingnuts among its ranks, too (and our wingnuts, given they define themselves partly by access to weapons, might be more frightening to the social herd at large). Yeah, but...that would require taking a look in the mirror and being responsible for our own actions.

627PCFan
February 25, 2013, 12:17 PM
Maybe Im the odd man out here but....I have no issues with their tactics. While Id like to see more refined measures, and do not condone threats.....but lets face it, that kind of pressure can motivate people. In this case it just backfired.

HOOfan_1
February 25, 2013, 02:32 PM
Yeah, but...that would require taking a look in the mirror and being responsible for our own actions.

Responsible for "OUR" actions? I don't think so. People can gripe about it all they want in this thread..those are not OUR actions, they are the actions of a few radicals.

I won't accept they are any more a part of "US" than I will accept that Adam Lanza was one of "US".

swalton1943
February 25, 2013, 02:54 PM
What scares me is the possibility of someone becoming so enraged by the gun-grabbers that he will resort to shooting in some confrontation and give the anti's the excuse they want to act against us.

Steel Horse Rider
February 25, 2013, 03:20 PM
The comment in the OP link about state laws not overriding federal laws made me instantly think of the Second Amendment. How can the Fed's and the states limit and regulate the Second Amendment so heavily if it is not lawful?

Bill4282
February 25, 2013, 03:26 PM
I learned very young that if you throw rocks at an angry dog, don't complain when you get bit. The antis aren't all nut jobs anymore than all gun owners are sane and responsible. The great thing about this country is the right to speak one's mind without fear of the Gestapo cracking one's skull or going to a lockup indefinitely. I believe in the end reason and Constitutional law will prevail.

Frank Ettin
February 25, 2013, 03:47 PM
The comment in the OP link about state laws not overriding federal laws made me instantly think of the Second Amendment. How can the Fed's and the states limit and regulate the Second Amendment so heavily if it is not lawful?Here's how things work:

Any gun control or gun ban law enacted by Congress or by any State is subject to judicial challenge:


In the course of deciding Heller (District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U. S. 570 (United States Supreme Court, 2008)) and McDonald (McDonald v. City of Chicago (Supreme Court, 2010, No. 08-1521)), the rulings made by the United States Supreme Court on matters of Constitutional Law, as necessary in making its decisions in those cases, are now binding precedent on all other courts. Now the Supreme Court has finally confirmed that (1) the Second Amendment describes an individual, and not a collective, right; and (2) that right is fundamental and applies against the States. This now lays the foundation for litigation to challenge other restrictions on the RKBA, and the rulings on matters of law necessarily made by the Supreme Court in Heller and McDonald will need to be followed by other courts in those cases.


There is judicial authority going back well before Heller and McDonald for the proposition that constitutionally protected rights are subject to limited regulation by government. Any such regulation must pass some level of scrutiny. The lowest level of scrutiny sometimes applied to such regulation, "rational basis", appears to now have been taken off the table, based on some language in McDonald. And since the Court in McDonald has explicitly characterized the right described by the Second Amendment as fundamental, there is some possibility that highest level of scrutiny, "strict scrutiny" will apply, at least to some issues.


There are three prongs to the strict scrutiny test, as follows:


The regulation must be justified by a compelling governmental interest; and


The law or policy must be narrowly tailored to achieve that goal or interest; and


The law or policy must be the least restrictive means for achieving that interest (i. e., there cannot be a less restrictive way to effectively achieve the compelling government interest, but the test will not fail just because there is another method that is equally the least restrictive).


The level of scrutiny between "rational basis" and "strict scrutiny" is "intermediate scrutiny." To satisfy the intermediate scrutiny test, it must be shown that the law or policy being challenged furthers an important government interest in a way substantially related to that interest.


Whichever level of scrutiny may apply, the government, state or federal, seeking to have the regulation sustained will have the burden of convincing a court (and in some cases, ultimately the Supreme Court) that the regulation is acceptable under the applicable level of scrutiny.

JRH6856
February 25, 2013, 05:00 PM
The comment in the OP link about state laws not overriding federal laws made me instantly think of the Second Amendment. How can the Fed's and the states limit and regulate the Second Amendment so heavily if it is not lawful?
In addition to what Frank said, if a legislative body passes a law and the chief executive signs it, that law is lawful. And it will be lawful until a court rules otherwise. Throughout our history, there have been many laws passed that were lawfully enforced until challenged and a court ruled they were unconstitutional.

Courts are passive in that they may only rule on matters that come before them so until a law is challenged, it can be in effect for many years before it ever comes before a court for a ruling on constitutionality.

Bad laws are like vermin in your house. Once they get in, they can make a real mess of things before you can get rid of them.

316SS
February 25, 2013, 05:18 PM
The comment in the OP link about state laws not overriding federal laws made me instantly think of the Second Amendment. How can the Fed's and the states limit and regulate the Second Amendment so heavily if it is not lawful?

In addition to what Frank and MicroTecniqs said, even the application of strict scrutiny does not guarantee a ruling that upholds Constitutional protections. As I understand it, the first application of strict scrutiny, after the concept of the three levels of judicial scrutiny was made up by FDR appointee Harlan Stone, was Korematsu v. US, where SCOTUS ruled that internment of American citizens of Japanese decent during WWII passed Constitutional muster. Ouch.

Steel Horse Rider
February 25, 2013, 10:32 PM
So taking the definitions of either "Strict Scrutiny" or "Intermediate Scrutiny" requiring the law to have an outcome that supports the reason the law was put into place, and also considering how many of the folks who have proposed or supported the current batch of limitations of the Second Amendment have also stated that they would have likely had no impact at all on the actions that have led to the proposed laws nor will said laws likely prohibit any such future acts, how can they appear with a straight face and expect us to believe that their intents are honorable or their laws are Constitutional? I know it doesn't pass legal muster but the men (and women) in black robes are not infallible and for the most part seem to be either reluctant or ignorant of the very plainly evident nature of the Constitution. Both the Bible and the Constitution are relatively simple to understand documents if you are not trying to undermine the intent of either....

Thanks for your responses gents, although my question was really more of the rhetorical variety....

Serenity
February 25, 2013, 10:41 PM
We are our own worst enemies as far as protecting the second amendment. As mentioned earlier lots of gun owners set a bad example. Most grass roots organizations will run off anyone who loves freedom and the second amendment but they don't agree with the republican platform.

Gun owners need to get our act together as a group. We need to be more tolerant of people who have a (D) beside their name but are willing to spend their time and money to defend the second amendment.

+1

How many of the Enemy have you guys won over to the light side? I can count 2 so far. It's not much, but it's more than none, and it's a darn sight better than turning people on the fence back around in the other direction by calling them names, questioning their intelligence and, worse, their patriotism.

Frank Ettin
February 25, 2013, 10:54 PM
In addition to what Frank said, if a legislative body passes a law and the chief executive signs it, that law is lawful. And it will be lawful until a court rules otherwise. Throughout our history, there have been many laws passed that were lawfully enforced until challenged and a court ruled they were unconstitutional.

Courts are passive in that they may only rule on matters that come before them so until a law is challenged, it can be in effect for many years before it ever comes before a court for a ruling on constitutionality....Excellent points.

...Bad laws are like vermin in your house...We might want to reflect on the fact that being constitutional doesn't guarantee that a law is good or good public policy. Some laws are constitutional but bad ideas (at least in the opinions of some people).

...Both the Bible and the Constitution are relatively simple to understand documents if you are not trying to undermine the intent of either....But that simplistic view is contradicted by the historical reality that there has been considerable disagreement about the meaning and application of both. We don't discuss that Bible here, but there certainly have been differences of opinion regarding the Constitution, and that's why the Founding Fathers assigned final resolution of disputes on that subject to the federal courts.

Imagining that you have a corner on the truth market is a very bad idea.

Steel Horse Rider
February 25, 2013, 11:00 PM
Not imagining or preaching, just trying to give an example that most people can relate to in at least a minute way.

In the end I fear our population, and therefore our government, has become corrupted to the point that the individual law abiding citizen has the least impact on the creation of new laws or the implementation of existing law.

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