At the range with a new AR that is not feeding- help


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mookiie
February 23, 2013, 12:48 PM
i have an AR that is not feeding correctly. does not seem to have enough energy to eject and chamber. bullets work fine in another ar so i am not sure if it is a tight chamber problem or what? help please!


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mookiie
February 23, 2013, 12:49 PM
possibly a buffer tube/spring issue?


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ID-shooting
February 23, 2013, 12:52 PM
Plugged or weak gas system/lack of lube. Can of carbon blaster or gun scrubber and bow out the gas tube. The other is check the three washers in the bolt. Be sure the slots are not ligned. They should be staggered. Also be sure there is light coat of oil where the bolt carrier slides in the reciever.

Skylerbone
February 23, 2013, 12:59 PM
More lube! More lube!! More lube!!! Then cycle the action for a minute.

highorder
February 23, 2013, 01:05 PM
More lube! More lube!! More lube!!! Then cycle the action for a minute.

This.

walking arsenal
February 23, 2013, 01:39 PM
Check your gas key and make sure it is tight.
Check your gas rings and make sure they're all there and staggered.
Oil the gun well.
Try it again.

wally
February 23, 2013, 01:45 PM
If all the above fail, check for leaks around the gas block, check that the gas tube is not damaged, and last make sure they drilled the barrel port the correct size for your barrel length -- should be 0.625 for a 16" 5.56 carbine.

Warp
February 23, 2013, 02:11 PM
i have an AR that is not feeding correctly. does not seem to have enough energy to eject and chamber. bullets work fine in another ar so i am not sure if it is a tight chamber problem or what? help please!


Posted from Thehighroad.org App for Android

Exactly what kind of failure(s) is it experiencing?

A failure to feed and a failure to eject are two different things.

What rifle (manufacturer, gas system, buffer weight, etc)? What ammo? What magazines? How much lube is on the bolt carrier group?

Is it a new rifle, or has it worked before? If it worked before, what ammo and mags?

xfyrfiter
February 23, 2013, 02:58 PM
If rifle is new, lube well and try full power ammo. Some of the cheaper stuff is loaded a little light, esp if .556 chamber and using .223 ammo.

Rubber_Duck
February 23, 2013, 03:16 PM
Try some 5.56mm NATO-spec ammo. If you are running an H or H2 buffer, switch to carbine or H buffer, respectively.

mec56
February 23, 2013, 03:42 PM
Can a expert positively say if the gas rings need to be aligned or not? I keep hearing both stated as fact. I'm in the "it doesn't matter corner

Float Pilot
February 23, 2013, 03:46 PM
DID YOU TRY MORE THAN ONE MAGAZINE ?

During my 30+ years of military and police service most failures to feed were due to a bad mag or one which was incompatible with that particular rifle.

BTW, was it a commercially made rifle or a parts gun ???
New or used ? Was it working before ? Full Length or carbine ?

Rubber_Duck
February 23, 2013, 03:50 PM
Gas rings DO NOT need to be aligned, that is an old myth. The rifle should be able to function with just one gas key remaining. They should be tight though, to test this take the complete BCG, with the bolt extended, and place it bolt down on a table. The gas rings should be tight enough to keep the bolt carrier from sliding down on the bolt.

Also, what brand is the AR?

ID-shooting
February 23, 2013, 04:14 PM
Armorer, US Army in the 90's

I have had this conversation before.

Page 3-42 of tm 9-1005-249-10

And

Page 2-30 of tm 9-1005-249-243&p

Stagger the gosh-darn rings.

Till I see a better reference, I consider this settled.

BullfrogKen
February 23, 2013, 04:47 PM
Does it extract and eject? Is that your problem?

Skylerbone
February 23, 2013, 04:53 PM
He stated it is new, sounds like it's short-stroking.

At the range with a new AR that is not feeding- help


does not seem to have enough energy to eject and chamber.

ID-shooting
February 23, 2013, 04:54 PM
He stated it is new, sounds like it's short-stroking.
That is what got

Float Pilot
February 23, 2013, 05:12 PM
LIKE id SHOOTING SAID..

ARMY TM-9-1005-249-10

3-9. REASSEMBLY OF M16/M16A1 RIFLE (CONT).
BOLT CARRIER ASSEMBLY AND CHARGING HANDLE ASSEMBLY (CONT

4 Stagger gaps in bolt rings (5) to stop gas
loss.

AND... on page 3-10

TROUBLESHOOTING (CONT)
MALFUNCTION TEST OR INSPECTION CORRECTIVE ACTION

8. WEAPON HAS SHORT RECOIL.

Step 1. Gaps in bolt rings (not staggered).
Stagger ring gaps (p 3-42).

Step 2. Carbon or dirt in key and carrier assembly or on outside of gas tube.
Clean (p 3-34 and 3-30).

9. BOLT FAILS TO LOCK AFTER LAST ROUND.
Step 1. Check for dirty or corroded bolt catch.
Clean (p 3-38).
Step 2. Check for faulty cartridge magazine.
Replace (app B).

10, SELECTOR LEVER BINDS.
Check for not enough lubrication on selector lever (l).
Lubricate with CLP (item 1,


For those who were not issued a copy....

http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/MILITARY/united%20_states_army_tm_9-1005-249-10%20-%2011_may_1990.pdf

gyp_c2
February 23, 2013, 05:19 PM
Lube by the ounce, not the drop...:cool:

Float Pilot
February 23, 2013, 05:25 PM
By the By,,,
When one of my old units was issued 120 brand new FN made M16A2 rifles,,,, they were all so tight that none of them would function. ( plus they had a weird smell like some sort of smoke when you hand-cycled the actions)

We oiled the heck out of them and took a flat bed truck of ammo out to the range. Then I had everyone shoot until they could not see straight... Mostly single shot because the guns were not working, even with a couple of us running up and down the line with a giant janitor spray bottles of lube oil...

We ended up taking a big rotary brush to the inside of the upper receiver on about 30 rifles... Plus we had to replace the supposedly new bolt gas rings on about half the rifles..

Later when they issued us M-4s, the problem was not nearly as bad.. Although almost none of the new magazines that came with the M-4s worked...

mookiie
February 23, 2013, 05:34 PM
Wow thanks for all the replies! Let me see if I can answer your questions. The lower was assembled by myself, geissle trigger, ATI polymer lower and PSA lower parts kit. I had two AR's with me at the range. One a Stag Arms Model 3 and the other the malfunctioning AR. I switched the lowers and the malfunction still occurred. I put the assembled lower on the stag arms upper and it worked flawlessly. The other upper is a R-guns upper that was brand new unfired. I put the Rguns upper on the stage lower and still had issues. I was able to get the AR functioning, I believe that it is a problem related to the magazines. I believe the bolt is rubbing against the lip of the mags on one side. I could see dome Material shaved off of some of the pmags I was using. I also saw similar wear marks on the metal magazine I tried. It may be related to the ammo because it is handloads that are loaded mild. I am going to try to dremel the lip of the Mags where it seemed to be binding and hope that fixes it. I will also take a look at the rings in the bolt because I did not assemble the bolt it came with the upper. Thanks for that link! That is a great manual on ARs. Let me give some more info on the malfunctions. It was able to expel the brass from a fired round, then the bolt would either close without picking up a round or bind up half way closed. It was sometimes odd in that you would sometimes get two to fire fine in a row than on the third round it would not pick it up and chamber it. I was able to get it to fire several magazines in a row without issue. Than someone else would try and have an issue on almost ever other round. So I am not 100 percent confident that I identified the problem. I will also clean it and apply more lube, anyone have anything they can recommend?

Warp
February 23, 2013, 05:42 PM
Handloads

Key word.

Almost surely your problem.

I wouldn't even bother trying to diagnose anything else until you try proper factory ammo and still have problems.

I would NOT start taking a dremel to the magazines. You are using quality magazines (at least the PMAGs), an rguns upper and HANDLOADs. The magazines aren't going to be the problem.

mookiie
February 23, 2013, 05:54 PM
Warp, I don't think handloads are the problem they function fine in the Stag Model 3. I think it just needs to get worn in..hopefully. I will try and get a few boxes of factory ammo before I head to the range next time, just to be sure.

Warp
February 23, 2013, 06:17 PM
Warp, I don't think handloads are the problem they function fine in the Stag Model 3. I think it just needs to get worn in..hopefully. I will try and get a few boxes of factory ammo before I head to the range next time, just to be sure.

A quality gun doesn't need to be "worn in" to work.

There is no reason an AR upper needs worn in to properly function.

It certainly isn't the mags if you are using PMAGs, and they work in the other upper, and you are noticing the symptoms on all the mags.

You talked about scuffing and material loss on the mags. That indicates it's an rguns upper problem (assuming it isn't happening with the other upper and that same lower)

I will wager $ it's a combination (%/% TBD) between the rguns upper and the handloads.


But seriously, anytime you are having function issues with any gun while using handloads/reloads, the first thin you should do, before anything else, is run factory ammo to see what happens.

mookiie
February 23, 2013, 07:57 PM
Now that I am thinking about it, I wish I had swapped out the bolt carrier groups between the two uppers to see if the malfunction followed it. I will tear it down soon and clean and lube it as well as check parts for wear/fit.

BullfrogKen
February 23, 2013, 08:05 PM
Good idea, before you start dremeling on Mag's you already know work.

VA27
February 24, 2013, 12:32 AM
Others have hit most of it.

I use ATF for lube. http://www.grantcunningham.com/lubricants101.html

If you're OCD or it makes you feel better, set the rings, but it doesn't really matter. Like the piston rings in an engine they rotate on their own (how would they get out of alignment otherwise?) and will re-align themselves eventually. The real thing that matters is wear. When they won't support the weight of the carrier, replace 'em.

Warp
February 24, 2013, 12:59 AM
Do not concern yourself with the alignment of the rings. Seriously. Do NOT worry about it.

Rubber_Duck
February 24, 2013, 06:52 AM
...If you're OCD or it makes you feel better, set the rings, but it doesn't really matter. Like the piston rings in an engine they rotate on their own (how would they get out of alignment otherwise?) and will re-align themselves eventually. The real thing that matters is wear. When they won't support the weight of the carrier, replace 'em....

...Do not concern yourself with the alignment of the rings. Seriously. Do NOT worry about it....

I'll add once again, that gas ring alignment does not matter, and the test for tightness is simple, just look at my previous post in this thread. I know someone else posted some info out of the Army FM for the M16/M4 that states gas rings must have their gaps staggered but it's non-sense. Just because they put it in the FM and decided to never remove the information doesn't make it true. There's a lot they teach in the military that they really shouldn't teach (like scraping the carbon off the bolt tail with wire brushes, serves absolutely no purpose and it drove me nuts).

As for lube, I use synthetic ATF. Works great, I've been using it for years in my personal ARs and on my issued rifle when I was in the military (except when I didn't have access to ATF) and never had problems, bolt would stay wet after a few hundred rounds.

thump_rrr
February 24, 2013, 11:50 AM
LIKE id SHOOTING SAID..

ARMY TM-9-1005-249-10

3-9. REASSEMBLY OF M16/M16A1 RIFLE (CONT).
BOLT CARRIER ASSEMBLY AND CHARGING HANDLE ASSEMBLY (CONT

4 Stagger gaps in bolt rings (5) to stop gas
loss.

AND... on page 3-10

TROUBLESHOOTING (CONT)
MALFUNCTION TEST OR INSPECTION CORRECTIVE ACTION

8. WEAPON HAS SHORT RECOIL.

Step 1. Gaps in bolt rings (not staggered).
Stagger ring gaps (p 3-42).

Step 2. Carbon or dirt in key and carrier assembly or on outside of gas tube.
Clean (p 3-34 and 3-30).

9. BOLT FAILS TO LOCK AFTER LAST ROUND.
Step 1. Check for dirty or corroded bolt catch.
Clean (p 3-38).
Step 2. Check for faulty cartridge magazine.
Replace (app B).

10, SELECTOR LEVER BINDS.
Check for not enough lubrication on selector lever (l).
Lubricate with CLP (item 1,


For those who were not issued a copy....

http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/MILITARY/united%20_states_army_tm_9-1005-249-10%20-%2011_may_1990.pdf
Thank you for the manual.

Being that I am not former military there were many things that I was not aware of.
I'm surprised that the front of the trigger guard was designed in the manner it was so that it can be swung down to be used with winter gloves.

You are never too old to learn something new

hueyville
February 24, 2013, 01:30 PM
I don't know that I have been any military surplus store in my life that did not stock the military manual for said platform and others. As to the OP's issues, if this is only with his home built unit, I would recommend taking it to a competent smith. I have owned over 50 AR's and currently have over a dozen. Had one that came in a trade 25 years ago that first trip to range did not function properly. Took home, put in safe until had time to look at it. Time never came with a never ending myriad of projects from tractor, motorcycle, hot-rod restorations, bench rest rifles, IPSC, IDPA pistols and more but it was eating no hay and filtered way back in the vault that I seldom open. With this latest freakout decided was time to sell the gun but did not want it to be incorrect to purchaser. Dropped it off at local armorer who immediately noticed a 10 year prison sentence due to issue with the upper. Was not an issue as far as I knew, the flashhider was visibly staked, but I didn't know it had to be lock-tighted or welded also for two forms of attachment. Then when he opened it up the thing had a complete full auto lower in it which had not been properly assembled. We sadly but quickly turned the sear mechanism into goo with a torch wishing I had made an attempt to register it back in the day when that was a mail order parts kit. I do have one registered and uninstalled auto-sear in my trust that was purchased mail-order for 100 bucks and when my armorer offered me 7,500 for it I let it go. Just waiting for the paperwork to clear. More rock n roll does not mean much to me but cash does.

I ended up taking all of my current AR's to be checked over. Found out another had a lower that was worth serious cash and turned loose of it. All in all, I had two federal prison sentences dealt with, all AR's professionally serviced and over 10,000 bucks in pocket when done. Only down one gun in the count. I suggest any of you with home built parts guns done by Vietnam Vets to have them checked out. My issue was one gun built with parts mailed home from Nam then reassembled on an aftermarket lower, I called guy who built it as still had his number and he gave me the complete history. I took the gun in trade 25 years ago and plan was to take to next gunshow to sell. Could have gone out in cuffs instead of with cash. I am a machinist by trade and build guns on occasion. I do a lot of 10/22's and good at those. I have built a couple of turnbolts and a couple of AR parts guns. That said, I have had all my competition guns built by renown professional smiths. And from now on whenever a parts built AR comes through my hands it is going to an armorer before it comes home. One man can't know everything and better safe than sorry. Plus, one man can't have every armorers tool for every gun and the right tool is important on some things.

justice06rr
February 25, 2013, 03:06 AM
So to clarify to the OP, you are using an ATI poly lower with the Rguns upper, and this combination creates the problems?

Your most likely issue is related to the upper and BCG by Rguns. The lower can also be a culprit. I have experience with both.

To diagnose the issue, I suggest a few things:

1. Get good factory ammo i.e. Federal 5.56/223 or anything you can get your hands on.
2. Use a reliable magazine that you know is working properly (Pmag, GI mag)
3. Lube the AR properly
4. Check that your AR is properly assembled (gas key, gas rings, bolt catch, etc) and the BCG is in good working condition.

Then go from there.

Sun Tzu warrior
February 25, 2013, 09:31 PM
WOW! Glad I have mini-14's if they don't work correctly..... buy a factory magazine!
This thread gave me a headache just looking at all the possible problems! Easy to see why the US military likes M4/16 type platforms...... Plenty of red tape! LOL!
Hueyville, Glad you had no handcuff issues all those years you were suseptable to one! Let the buyer
beware! Another plus for Mini 14's..... easily distinguishable from an ACC556!

Warp
February 26, 2013, 12:28 PM
WOW! Glad I have mini-14's if they don't work correctly..... buy a factory magazine!
This thread gave me a headache just looking at all the possible problems! Easy to see why the US military likes them...... Plenty of red tape! LOL!
Hueyville, Glad you had no handcuff issues all those years you were suseptable to one! Let the buyer
beware! Another plus for Mini 14's..... easily distinguishable from an ACC556!

The US military likes rguns guns?

What the heck are you talking about?

mookiie
February 26, 2013, 08:29 PM
Thanks for all the input guys. I have not gotten around to it yet but I will clean and break it down to check the points mentioned this weekend. I also got some ATF to lube it, it was probably too dry since I only sprayed a little rem oil on it before we left for the range. I will let you know how it works out for me too! Thanks again everyone.

Sun Tzu warrior
February 27, 2013, 12:13 AM
Warp, "The US military likes rguns guns?" Really?! That is not a quote from what I wrote.
What the heck are you talking about?

Warp
February 27, 2013, 12:17 AM
Warp, "The US military likes rguns guns?" Really?! That is not a quote from what I wrote.
What the heck are you talking about?

That is one of the risks when using unclear pronouns. ;)

You said "them". I cannot be certain what you were referring to, but an rguns gun is what is having a problem here, so to me the most logical answer is that you were referring to rguns.

Skylerbone
February 27, 2013, 01:37 AM
The real problem exists in assembling parts from numerous vendors and hoping everything works as it should. What our military chooses are thoroughbreds, having been tested and proven as a system. Not every build is without trial and error.

Bartholomew Roberts
February 27, 2013, 10:39 AM
If staggering the gas rings fixes your gas problem (and it hasn't ever in the hundreds of thousands of rounds I've shot through ARs and witnessed shot), then you have a borderline rifle with a problem somewhere else in the gas system that IS going to malfunction again.

As others have already noted, a properly built AR is capable of running on a single gas ring. This is a worse situation than having the gaps in 3 gas rings aligned. If you do have a rifle that has a problem somewhere else, staggering the gas rings could theoretically give you the tiny extra bit of pressure you need to make the rifle function; but I've never seen it happen in real life. If having the gaps aligned was critical to function in any way, the military wouldn't be using 3 gas rings that are inevitably going to align all the gaps as the bolt moves back and forth.

As for the FM, I'd say the military was responsible for at least half of the misinformation and outright lies I was taught about firearms.

Certaindeaf
February 27, 2013, 11:39 AM
As was said, try Nato and or factory ammo, not your admittedly underpowered handloads.

Sun Tzu warrior
February 27, 2013, 07:31 PM
Warp, I guess southern drawl is different in Mississippi than Georgia, for your approval I have edited my post. Please define rguns? Not trying to be confrontational. Do you mean AR type weapons, if so then you are correct.

Warp
February 27, 2013, 09:40 PM
Warp, I guess southern drawl is different in Mississippi than Georgia, for your approval I have edited my post. Please define rguns? Not trying to be confrontational.

Define rguns guns?

A gun manufactured by rguns, perhaps?

http://www.rguns.net

readyeddy
February 27, 2013, 10:17 PM
Definitely try using full power 5.56 ammo. Weak handloads and cheap imports can cause short stroking. Another cause can be a too powerful buffer spring.

Sun Tzu warrior
February 27, 2013, 11:13 PM
Warp, in the imortal words of Ricky Ricardo.... That Splains it! No, I don't think the US military buys weapons from "RGUNS" LOL! If you were trying to make the point that piecemealing a weapon together from pieces/parts can cause problems, I whole heartedly agree!

mookiie
February 27, 2013, 11:15 PM
readyeddy - how can you tell what buffer spring you need?

Warp
February 27, 2013, 11:35 PM
readyeddy - how can you tell what buffer spring you need?

The carbine action spring aka buffer spring is a pretty standard thing.

Seriously, the reloads are probably the problem. If not that, something rguns manufactured would be my next bet.

If it's not having the proper part within the system, it would more likely be the wrong buffer weight for your system, not the spring. What weight buffer is it?

But seriously...try factory ammo before worrying about anything else.

Bartholomew Roberts
February 28, 2013, 11:01 AM
At this point, you have a gas system issue that may or may not be tied to your handloads, your first step should be to try new factory ammo to see if it works with that. Different powders have different pressures at the gas port and it isn't unusual for a gas port drilled for 5.56mm M855 (0.62" on a 14.5"-16" barrel with carbine length gas tube) to not produce enough pressure to operate from mildly loaded .223 (which is why many manufacturers use a slightly larger port size that can cause issues with 5.56 in hot barrels).

I would recommend getting two known good magazines and some factory ammo in both .223 and 5.56. Load each magazine with three rounds of 5.56 factory ammo. Shoot both until you have a malfunction or the bolt locks back on the empty mag. If you have a malfunction, repeat the process with a single round - is the bolt locking back on the empty magazine follower? If so, you are getting enough gas and the problem is somewhere else in the upper. If it passes with 5.56, repeat with factory .223. If it passes with both, try your handloads again.

Take pictures if you can. You may have to decide whether you want to tune it towards your handloads or factory ammo.

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