Precision multigun


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taliv
February 24, 2013, 09:47 PM
So I've been working on this evolution for a while. Basically, I love sniper matches and hate shotguns, which inevitably takes me to 3gun with a precision rifle, carbine and pistol.

I've been directing the sniper matches for a couple years, and directed 3gun matches prior to that. I'm not quite ready to put on the first match, but I plan to late this year, and a couple of my friends who run matches have expressed a lot of interest in doing the same.

So anyway, I thought I would try to generate a little interest here with some gratuitous gear photos.

Most of the rules are similar to USPSA 3gun, except a major departure is that like the sniper matches, you carry all your gear throughout the match. i.e. none of the baby strollers, wagons etc common found in 3gun. In other words, managing your gear is as much a part of the match as shooting the guns.

http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/chestbelt.jpg

Here's an example. 4 pistol mags (60rnd), 2 rifle mags (20rnd), 3 carbine mags (90 rnd). (not counting any that start in the guns)

A backpack is generally needed to carry most of the precision rifle gear (LRF, kestrel, etc), and food, water etc for the day. This type of backpack with the scabbard also makes it easy to manage two rifles without trying to sling them both at the same time, since you can stick one in the backpack.

http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/multigun1.jpg

http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/260templarsentinel1.jpg


I'm pretty sure there's more than enough interest to fill up matches that mix IDPA/USPSA style pistol/carbine with precision rifle targets from 300-900 yards, but I'd like to see the interest spread to become a little more mainstream.

of course the numbers will never come close to IDPA or 3gun as the long range precision work isn't a very common skill and can be pretty expensive in hardware and ammo.

added dimensions will probably include team matches and hiking/camping in multi-day matches.

I am curious how many people on THR have the equipment (not necessarily high end race guns, just basics are fine) and have it sorted out well enough you could carry 3 guns a couple miles and shoot stages with at least 2 of them at a time.

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esheato
February 24, 2013, 09:54 PM
I would love, LOVE to do this, and I have 2/3 of the guns. SV pistol, carbine and 338, although I'd prefer a 6.5mm short action.

taliv
February 24, 2013, 10:01 PM
cool! but uhh, yeah, if you mean 338LM that would be pretty rough on most of the targetry. A 6.5 or 6mm short action would be ideal. 308win would work fine too. Looks like you have an excuse to start putting one together!

chaser_2332
February 24, 2013, 10:24 PM
i like it tom, i was hoping when you guys starts PMG that you would eventually hold some type of match like this........even tho the shotty is my favorite part of 3 gun, i could drop it for the 6cm.

esheato
February 24, 2013, 10:37 PM
Looks like you have an excuse to start putting one together!

Actually, right now a job would help me start putting one together...already have the parts list scribbled somewhere.

I think the team event that Zak put on a year or two ago would be amazingly fun.

chaser_2332
February 24, 2013, 10:51 PM
I do think somting like this should be more outlaw 3gun rules, no powerfactors or anything like that. Also IMHO stray away from idpa as far as you can, that comp to me is just boring with TOO many rules of engagment.

theriflespeaks1863
February 24, 2013, 10:55 PM
This NEEDS to happen. If I were in a better financial situation, this would be my excuse to brush up on long-range skills and start acquiring the necessary tools. I've always thought something like this would make for a great competitive sport.

jmorris
February 24, 2013, 11:18 PM
The main problem I see is that most of the competitors in IDPA/USPSA couldn't carry everything they need for a pistol only match around all day, much less the extra two rifles and gear.

IDPA even leans toward helping those out that are in less than perfect health/shape by limiting stage movement between shooting positions to 10 yards.

At the 3 gun matches I shoot it's generally carts or shoot with the RO/SO group and just drive the truck from stage to stage.

Your idea sounds like a great way to test not only marksmanship but over all health, even make it more interesting to relay start it and just keep the clock running like an Olympic biathlon.

taliv
February 24, 2013, 11:26 PM
I do think somting like this should be more outlaw 3gun rules, no powerfactors or anything like that. Also IMHO stray away from idpa as far as you can

definitely will be outlaw rules. no slicing pie or reloading behind cover type rules.

Your idea sounds like a great way to test not only marksmanship but over all health,

given the nature of the long range matches, and shooting in the natural terrain as opposed to on a square high power range, it necessarily involves a good bit of walking between stages over uneven ground, so if you get winded moving from the couch to the fridge for a beer and cheezypoofs, you have at least 6 months to fix that before the match :)

stage movement on the clock could be a couple hundred yards. (actually i think 200 yards has been the longest so far in one of my matches)

esheato
February 25, 2013, 12:06 AM
if you mean 338LM that would be pretty rough on most of the targetry.

I do. Short action is on my list though. Been a SH forum member for a year or two. My wallet hates that forum. ;)

Could you elaborate on your kit? What do you carry, where and why? Pack brand and size, etc?

This was the match I was referring to earlier: Thunder Beast Team Challenge (http://competition-dynamics.com/thunder-beast-team-challenge-2011/)

Match duration: 3 days
9 stages total
3 long (hour+) field stages involving significant movement while engaging carbine and rifle targets
Additional assault-style stages with carbine targets, movement of 100-400 yards
Two night stages for carbine, rifle
Rugged desert terrain with natural hazards
Locate, range, and engage targets under strict time constraints
Significant movement while on the clock
Local altitude of 4000'
Carry gear all used during the courses of fire
Carbine targets: contact distance to 500 yards
Rifle targets: generally 150-800 yards
Unknown, various, and non-standard target sizes
Almost all targetry will be reactive armor steel plate
Round count (minimums): Long-range rifle: approx 110, primary carbine 220, secondary carbine (rifle shooter), 120. These account for average number of rounds required by an average good team to engage all targets. If you may need to shoot extra to make up for misses, bring more ammo.
Cost: $585 per team.

My comments:

-3 days is a long time...maybe make it a whole weekend instead, and drop a few stages to facilitate it.
-night stages? eeeek! How does one practice for this? It's hard enough to find a place to shoot in the dark...but locating a place to shoot LR in the dark is darn near impossible unless you own property.
-cost is probably more than most can afford at that rate....would love to have it reduced and more frequent match schedule.

Of course, finding property for something like this is probably the most difficult part of this.

Thanks.

taliv
February 25, 2013, 12:34 AM
My wallet hates that forum.

mine too!

and yeah, zak's doing that every year, but he keeps scheduling it for times I can't make it. :P heard great reviews from several friends who went.

sure... keep in mind i'm lefty, so things will appear backwards. My goal was to put together something that would work for everything I want to do, which makes it suboptimal for any particular thing
1. general preparedness
2. sniper matches (long gun only and occasionally long gun + pistol)
3. carbine classes and matches (carbine only or carbine + pistol)
4. precision multigun matches (all 3)

So, for 2, I just run the backpack and belt rig, which gives me 2 rifle mags and a dump pouch, and 2 pistol mags and a pistol, and if I don't need the latter, the empty holster isn't really in my way.

for 3, I just run the chest rig, which carries my AR mags and a pair of pistol mags, and I will usually wear the holster on a regular belt. I leave the backpack and molle belt at home.

for 4, I can combine both and have everything I need. but i don't really need 4 pistol mags at once, so i can just leave two empty to save weight.

the pack is an eberlestock x3 lo-drag. it's one of their cheaper packs and i reviewed it in this thread in some detail, though I have changed it quite a bit since that photo was taken. it's a great pack, but could be better www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=654789


a couple tips i have learned from experience:
- the shape of the lo-drag is nice because it's difficult/impossible to shoot a bolt gun prone while wearing a helmet and a large pack at the same time because the pack will prevent your head from moving backwards far enough to get into position
- the order you put the stuff on is important. i usually do chest rig on bottom, then rifle sling, then backpack. that way i can dump the pack fast. if i need to dump the gun fast, i use the QD swivels, which isn't perfect but is faster than dumping the pack and then the gun.
- it's easy to get stuff tangled up. i might try to go with slicker stuff. might even start cutting some of the molle off. i also switched earpro because my old earpro kept getting caught in the backpack straps/rifle sling.

esheato
February 25, 2013, 02:09 AM
Interesting. Seems like you've put a lot of thought into your setup. I like the multi-layered approach with the belt, chest rig and pack. You can mix and match dependent on your needs.

I must admit, I've spent the last hour and a half eyeballing gear at SKD, Eberlestock, Kifaru and others. One thing I can't seem to get past is most packs are large and heavy. How much gear are you really carrying? Five pounds of bag, before filling it, seems like it could be cut down significantly.

Lessons learned are always appreciated. Those things are priceless to us new guys.

BTW, I'm a lefty too. Everything looks jussst fine to me. ;)

Zak Smith
February 25, 2013, 03:06 AM
Here are the first two I was involved in putting on
http://coloradomultigun.com/prtc/
http://coloradomultigun.com/cgi/
The second of those was an individual match with 3 guns: long-range rifle, carbine, and pistol, and yes you had to carry all 3 on some stages.

We've evolved the concept quite a ways since then. This year we made a "light" version of our 24-Hour Sniper Adventure Challenge event called the "Sprint Class" which knocks out the crushing 30+ mile land nav but keeps the challenges.

GI_Jared
February 25, 2013, 07:49 AM
I could finally use the chest rig that I acquired from a mud hut in the middle of no where.
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l216/jleable/IMAG0290.jpg

jmorris
February 25, 2013, 08:44 AM
so if you get winded moving from the couch to the fridge for a beer and cheezypoofs, you have at least 6 months to fix that before the match

Might help the video game disabled but IDPA more so than USPSA (but both have them) have the folks that somehow got old before they had the time, money or free time to play gun games. 6 months or even another few years won't help them much.

No big deal just a slight shift in demographic from your average IDPA shooter.

Hoser
February 25, 2013, 07:54 PM
Im in.

I have shot the Thunderbeast Team Challenge both years so far and am signed up again for this years match.

browningguy
February 25, 2013, 09:45 PM
I think it will be difficult to mainstream this type of match. Anyone not in superb physical condition really can't compete in this. However I was able to shoot a 3 gun match this past weekend. Even though I'll never be able to win one due to my age and inability to run on my two bad knees I can finish about every stage without a problem.

But for the limited market for this is sounds like a fun shoot.

Mat, not doormat
February 26, 2013, 12:30 AM
That'd be an awesome time. I don't have the gear for it, but it would be awesome.

Bobson
February 26, 2013, 12:56 AM
That'd be an awesome time. I don't have the gear for it, but it would be awesome.
That's where I'm at. Sounds like an amazing event I'd love to participate in annually, just like the Thunderbeast Team Challenge. I'd be surprised if those with time and funds weren't tripping over themselves to sign up for these things. Problem I would expect is just finding fit shooters with both time and funds.

Being a pre-law college student, this is more of an "I'll be looking for it in five years" kind of thing.

Zak Smith
February 26, 2013, 12:58 AM
We'll be competing with pointy sticks in 5 years.

Bobson
February 26, 2013, 01:18 AM
No kidding. I'll start working on my range and accuracy with a javelin.

MtnCreek
February 26, 2013, 08:21 AM
We'll be competing with pointy sticks in 5 years.
Reminds me of the rock throwing scene in Bravehart.

Iíd be interested, but itís not something I could swing on a regular basis. I donít have a good way to carry two long guns, so Iíd need to address that. Other than that, Iím good on rifle, carbine & pistol. I wouldnít be the guy with the coolest toys, but good enough that it wouldnít be equipment holding me back.

Biggest issues for me would be time and location. Taking two or three days to go shoot a match a State or two away would be tough. Any further away and it'd be a no-go. I could find the time to do it, but the odds of my opportunity to go and the match date lining up are probably not the best.

ceylonc
March 1, 2013, 05:31 PM
This is good stuff Tom! No doubt in my mind you could make this a success.

Detritus
March 17, 2013, 04:44 AM
I think it will be difficult to mainstream this type of match. Anyone not in superb physical condition really can't compete in this.

Problem I would expect is just finding fit shooters with both time and funds.

those two quotes sum it up for me very very well...

I LOVE the idea of a multi-gun match with the shotgun replaced by a precision rifle.
But I suspect that having to ruck/carry all gear stage to stage, and Especially on-the-clock movement just to GET TO a stage is gonna be a deal killer on the idea being anything but a novelty.

IMO (which granted is worth what ya pay) to get anywhere with this as far as gaing more mainstream traction the better idea would be to work toward the idea of a 3-gun match with long range targets of the precison rifle replacing the shotgun work. And NOT a Sniper match with more carbine and pistol thrown in, which seems to be the direction you're working from.

I'm pretty sure there is a huge pool of shooters out there that like you dislike the shotgun aspect of 3-gun (or at least the direction it's gone) and would love to replace shotgun with another rifle type. But for better or worse, making everyone "ruck up and march", especially if there is an on-the-clock movement in even one stage, is going to be veiwed by alot of that pool as combining a match with a fitness test. and WILL effect the acceptance of the match.

none of this is to say that there's anything wrong with the proposed format, just that I believe it will impose a limitation on particpation and overall acceptance.
Personally i'd LOVE to be able to shoot such a match, but my personal health issues (joint problems among them) mean i wouldn't be able to participate if the aspects mentioned were included, esp. in the case of a multi day match. I might make it through one day, but i'd be lame by the 2nd.

waktasz
March 17, 2013, 02:03 PM
I "could" carry all my crap on me all day and do one of these matches, I mean physically. I'm young compared to most competitive shooters that I see at local matches and used to consider myself an athlete. That being said, I wouldn't want to do it and wouldn't participate in something that required it.

The last match similar to this format I shot was one stage, you shot less than 20 rounds of rifle, then jogged maybe 1/4 mile and shot 15 rounds of pistol, and that was it. It was not my idea of a well spent match fee.

MrCleanOK
March 18, 2013, 09:29 AM
If I owned a long range rifle and lived close enough that travel was affordable, I would be all over something like this.

mnhntr
March 20, 2013, 11:47 AM
I would do this in a minute over 3 gun but here 3 gun is what we have. I think it is a great idea.

taliv
March 21, 2013, 12:42 PM
saw this today... http://forum.snipershide.com/showthread.php?t=176444

they're doing something similar but separate the long range and pistol/carbine into two separate courses of fire and apparently two matches where you could pay for one and not the other. anyway, some of you might be interested...

capreppy
March 22, 2013, 12:56 PM
I would be VERY interested. I'm not a big shotgun guy, but would need to build a carbine upper. My upper is 24" for long range. I don't compete now, but have always wanted to. There isn't much up here in DFW for long gun. Lots of pistol matches and I can hold my own. Just wrapping up a 260 Rem build that is setup for long range UKD type matches.

2 day event would be best.

taliv
March 22, 2013, 01:15 PM
oh man, texas is where most of the long gun matches are. you're in a good spot.

http://www.therifleranch.com/The_Rifle_Ranch/Photos/Pages/2011_Predator_Tactical_Lone_Star_Challenge.html

I think the Lone Star Challenge is going to be the best match of the year. It's too late to sign up, but you could volunteer to RO and watch the festivities (i.e. me missing a lot of targets)

since it is a private range, volunteering to help run a match would prob go a long way towards getting invites to come shoot it. and they may let the ROs test fire the courses before the match, so you might get to shoot it for fun

here's an announcement for it, since they don't seem to have their website updated
http://tacticalmatches.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/11444/1

capreppy
March 22, 2013, 01:22 PM
oh man, texas is where most of the long gun matches are. you're in a good spot.

http://www.therifleranch.com/The_Rifle_Ranch/Photos/Pages/2011_Predator_Tactical_Lone_Star_Challenge.html

I think the Lone Star Challenge is going to be the best match of the year. It's too late to sign up, but you could volunteer to RO and watch the festivities (i.e. me missing a lot of targets)

since it is a private range, volunteering to help run a match would prob go a long way towards getting invites to come shoot it. and they may let the ROs test fire the courses before the match, so you might get to shoot it for fun

here's an announcement for it, since they don't seem to have their website updated
http://tacticalmatches.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/11444/1
I saw this. My tactical build won't be ready for another 4 weeks so I knew I couldn't do this year. I'll keep an eye out for future events.

griff383
March 22, 2013, 10:03 PM
This sounds like all kinds of fun. I dont think that I have the skills to keep up with the long time players but would still love to make an attempt at making them sweat just a little.

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