Interesting private handgun sale situation involving LEO in NC - Need your help!!!


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CPshooter
February 25, 2013, 12:07 PM
Hi folks,

I've found myself in a bit of an odd situation over a pending trade deal and could really use some advice. I found a LEO here in North Carolina (not in my county though) that has a P7M8 and he wants to meet up face to face to trade me for a few of my handguns. However, he is claiming that he has been too busy/lazy/whatever to get a PPP (pistol purchase permit) and has not gotten around to getting his CCP (which can replace the PPP here in NC).

This gentleman then proceeded to tell me that a PPP/CCP is only required when buying from an FFL, but nothing is required for a private sale between two citizens. I informed him that this was incorrect and both people need to retain either an actual PPP or a copy of a valid CCP + photo ID from the other person. I remarked that it was strange to me that a LEO did not know the law when it comes to something as consequential as a firearm sale. I think he got a bit offended because he said he didn't like my tone and essentially threatened to break off the deal. This was all text messaging, btw. He is calling me today at 5pm though.

I went on to explain that I was not trying to be offensive, but that something simply smelled fishy and I was just protecting myself. After all, if they can pull a sting on a drug dealer, why couldn't they do the same with someone selling a firearm illegally?

What would you do in this situation? If he doesn't have a PPP, he can't even take my guns in through his FFL. Is he exempt from requiring a PPP/CCP because he's a cop, perhaps? That's the only thing I'm still wondering about. Heck, am I just being naive here in thinking it's really possible for a LEO to not know this law? I mean, hasn't this law been in effect for years now? I just moved here about a year ago and got my CCP about 6 months ago... Is he some random trying to stick me up and steal my guns? Maybe he's part of a gun control nazi police force trying to prove a point by making an example out of someone (aka stinging me)?

Thanks in advance!

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lesgeaux
February 25, 2013, 12:18 PM
I don't know nothing from nothing about North Carolina firearm laws, but reading your post, it seems that you do. If that is the case and you know it can't happen due to his not holding the proper credentials, I would just say that maybe you should move on and find another P7M8. It would not be worh finding yourself in a pickle over this one. Good Luck.

Bubbles
February 25, 2013, 12:22 PM
http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/north-carolina.aspx
PURCHASE
No state permit is required to purchase a rifle or shotgun. It is lawful for citizens of the State to purchase rifles and shotguns and ammunition in states contiguous to this State.

A license or permit must be obtained to purchase, sell, give away, transfer, inherit, or receive a handgun by applying to the county sheriff in which the purchase is to be made or where the receiver resides. A purchase permit is good for five years from the date of issue. Antique firearms are exempted. The sheriff shall issue such license or permit to a resident of that county, unless the purpose of the license or permit is for collecting, in which case a license or permit may be issued to a nonresident.

When the sheriff shall have fully satisfied himself as to the good moral character of the applicant, the applicant has successfully completed a criminal history check, and that the applicant desires the possession of the handgun for the protection of the home, business, person, family or property, target shooting, collecting, or hunting, such permit or license shall be issued.

For good cause shown, a license or permit may be denied, and within seven (7) days of such refusal a written statement of the reason shall be issued to the applicant. Each applicant for any such license or permit shall be informed within thirty (30) days of the date of such application whether such license or permit shall be granted or denied, and, if granted, such license or permit shall be immediately issued to said applicant. A permit or license may not be issued to a person:

- who is under indictment or who has been convicted of a felony except that if a person has been later pardoned or is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm under the Felony Act, he may obtain a permit or license;
- who is a fugitive from justice;
- who is an unlawful user of or addicted to a drug;
- who has been adjudicated mentally incompetent or has been committed to any mental institution;
- who is dishonorably discharged from the military;
- who has renounced his or her citizenship; or
- who is under a court restraining order for harassing, stalking, threatening an intimate partner or a child.

An appeal from such refusal may be made to the Chief Judge of the District Court for the district in which the application was filed.

A permit is valid for the purchase of only one handgun. To obtain another handgun, an applicant must procure another permit and must convince the issuing authority that he needs more than one handgun.

sota
February 25, 2013, 12:28 PM
I say, run like the wind from this guy and find a different P7M8 to get. I know, they're hard to find, but do you really want to be involved with someone who doesn't know or apparently want to respect the laws and is CHARGED with the duty of enforcing them?

Sam1911
February 25, 2013, 12:32 PM
Talk to him, give him the info above, and politely break off contact if he doesn't agree to play strictly by the rules.

CPshooter
February 25, 2013, 12:34 PM
I know, they're hard to find, but do you really want to be involved with someone who doesn't know or apparently want to respect the laws and is CHARGED with the duty of enforcing them?I honestly don't care what the guy knows or doesn't know as long as I'm not at risk of doing anything illegal myself. As of right now, I am not trying to go through with this and do anything illegal. However, I'd still like to get clarification on the part about him being a LEO before I turn him away for good. If he doesn't need a civilian CCP because he's a LEO and allowed to carry anyhow, maybe he can just show his LEO credentials instead? That's what I'm trying to figure out here.

Thank you for the input so far! Really do appreciate it!

alsaqr
February 25, 2013, 12:39 PM
Talk to him, give him the info above, and politely break off contact if he doesn't agree to play strictly by the rules.

+1
If he refuses to play by the rules, drop it like a hot rock.

sota
February 25, 2013, 12:41 PM
I might be projecting on this one but take it as you will...

If this were NJ I'd be calling the state police and getting ahold of the highest badge I could for clarification. then I'd need to contact a firearms specializing lawyer (yep... we got A BUNCH of them!) to see if some colorful smoke was being inserted into my exit-only orifice. However that would require WAY more effort for a firearm that, unless it literally was a 1 of 1 and i just *HAD* to have it, probably isn't worth it.

Is it a sting? I don't know. Is the LEO being a bit of a <colorful metaphore>? From your description I would say yes. Just based on the fact he doesn't seem to want to help clarify the situation but responds with a "I don't like your attitude", do you really want to be involved in any transaction with such a person whereby you're trading goods and not money? I still say, walk away. Nicely inform him you've decided to withdraw from the negotiations and bid him a pleasant day.

CPshooter
February 25, 2013, 12:46 PM
So I just called my local Sheriff's Office. A woman deputy I spoke with on the phone said that some gun shops in NC will sell a handgun to a police officer with only LEO credentials, but some are not comfortable with doing this and still require the PPP or CCP. Even she did not know for 100% certain if NC law allows for LEO credentials to replace a CCP/PPP. If I can find out for sure one way or another, I will know what decision I need to make here.

Bubbles
February 25, 2013, 12:47 PM
LE exemptions typically apply to department-issued firearms, not to private purchases. I would find another seller.

clamman
February 25, 2013, 12:52 PM
I have made purchases from NC LEO. He is wrong. Walk away!

Old Shooter
February 25, 2013, 01:03 PM
I would just walk away and not look back.

Life is too short to risk spending time in the courthouse, county jail and mayby even club fed if this is some sort of set-up regarding some obscure parts of the law.

Even if works out, all you did was make a deal with a jerk.

I would not give him the pleasure, let him sell the gun to another.

Grmlin
February 25, 2013, 01:21 PM
Learn something new everyday, I've never used a pistol permit or my cc for any private sales.

rdhood
February 25, 2013, 01:35 PM
There are way too many red flags here.

And these all have "Felony" written on them. Force him to follow the law or terminate the sale.

marv
February 25, 2013, 02:28 PM
I would Run away from that 'deal' as fast as my prosthetic knee could carry me. Simplest solution would be to just stop communicating with him. If you think he's been lying to you then no explanation is needed.

Tennessee Ned
February 25, 2013, 02:51 PM
Does he need PPP/CCP just to sell you the P7M8? If not you might just try to buy it straight up and sell your other guns to someone with the proper permits.

mgkdrgn
February 25, 2013, 02:57 PM
I honestly don't care what the guy knows or doesn't know as long as I'm not at risk of doing anything illegal myself. As of right now, I am not trying to go through with this and do anything illegal. However, I'd still like to get clarification on the part about him being a LEO before I turn him away for good. If he doesn't need a civilian CCP because he's a LEO and allowed to carry anyhow, maybe he can just show his LEO credentials instead? That's what I'm trying to figure out here.

Thank you for the input so far! Really do appreciate it!
Personally, I'd treat an alleged "LEO" like any other Joe Schmo I met on the street. And in the majority of cases, LEO's are only exempt from such regulations if purchasing a DUTY weapon, and in such case need a letter from their CO, on official letterhead, stating such.

Black Butte
February 25, 2013, 02:57 PM
If you have any doubt, isn't it safer to split a $10 or $20 dollar transfer fee and go through an FFL? It's better than potentially getting set up for an unpleasant experience.

medalguy
February 25, 2013, 04:36 PM
Personally, I'd treat an alleged "LEO" like any other Joe Schmo I met on the street.

Me, I'd be doubly careful dealing with any LEO who has the attitude this guy apparently has. Just my .02.

CPshooter
February 25, 2013, 04:49 PM
I appreciate all the input everyone. Definitely helps reinforce that I need to be careful who I'm dealing with out there. I am NOT going to go through with this deal unless he complies with the law.

That being said, I still want to give this guy the benefit of the doubt. Just because he is a LEO, doesn't automatically mean he knows about gun law. A lot of old-timers out there really think they know the law because it was that way 20 years ago, but they don't make an effort to keep up with the current laws and then get upset when a youngster like me comes along and proves them wrong. Maybe his ego just got hurt a bit because I proved im wrong after he insisted he was right? Either way, I see two options here. He can either apply for the PPP and wait the 7-10 days for it to clear before we meet up, OR we can go through our FFLs and his FFL can hold my guns for 7-10 days until his PPP clears.

I'm supposed to talk to this guy in 10 minutes. Should be interesting... I'll let you guys know how it goes!

Texan Scott
February 25, 2013, 05:43 PM
You know the law. You know the risks associated with noncompliance. Follow the law or live with the potential consequences.

I say there's no compelling reason to break the law or face those risks. If he insists on something you know to be illegal, walk away.

Sam1911
February 25, 2013, 06:16 PM
I'm supposed to talk to this guy in 10 minutes. Should be interesting... I'll let you guys know how it goes!

OK, so the conversation has happened and now we wait to hear what the guy's story was.

Landric
February 25, 2013, 08:59 PM
14‑404. Issuance or refusal of permit; appeal from refusal; grounds for refusal; sheriff's fee.

(a) Upon application, the sheriff shall issue the license or permit to a resident of that county, unless the purpose of the permit is for collecting, in which case a sheriff can issue a permit to a nonresident, when the sheriff has done all of the following:

(1) Verified, before the issuance of a permit, by a criminal history background investigation that it is not a violation of State or federal law for the applicant to purchase, transfer, receive, or possess a handgun. The sheriff shall determine the criminal and background history of any applicant by accessing computerized criminal history records as maintained by the State Bureau of Investigation and the Federal Bureau of Investigation, by conducting a national criminal history records check, by conducting a check through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS), and by conducting a criminal history check through the Administrative Office of the Courts.

(2) Fully satisfied himself or herself by affidavits, oral evidence, or otherwise, as to the good moral character of the applicant.

(3) Fully satisfied himself or herself that the applicant desires the possession of the weapon mentioned for (i) the protection of the home, business, person, family or property, (ii) target shooting, (iii) collecting, or (iv) hunting.

(b) If the sheriff is not fully satisfied, the sheriff may, for good cause shown, decline to issue the license or permit and shall provide to the applicant within seven days of the refusal a written statement of the reason(s) for the refusal. An appeal from the refusal shall lie by way of petition to the chief judge of the district court for the district in which the application was filed. The determination by the court, on appeal, shall be upon the facts, the law, and the reasonableness of the sheriff's refusal, and shall be final.

(c) A permit may not be issued to the following persons:

(1) One who is under an indictment or information for or has been convicted in any state, or in any court of the United States, of a felony (other than an offense pertaining to antitrust violations, unfair trade practices, or restraints of trade). However, a person who has been convicted of a felony in a court of any state or in a court of the United States and (i) who is later pardoned, or (ii) whose firearms rights have been restored pursuant to G.S. 14‑415.4, may obtain a permit, if the purchase or receipt of a pistol permitted in this Article does not violate a condition of the pardon or restoration of firearms rights.

(2) One who is a fugitive from justice.

(3) One who is an unlawful user of or addicted to marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug (as defined in 21 U.S.C. 802).

(4) One who has been adjudicated mentally incompetent or has been committed to any mental institution.

(5) One who is an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States.

(6) One who has been discharged from the Armed Forces of the United States under dishonorable conditions.

(7) One who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his or her citizenship.

(8) One who is subject to a court order that:

a. Was issued after a hearing of which the person received actual notice, and at which the person had an opportunity to participate;

b. Restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of the person or child of the intimate partner of the person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child; and

c. Includes a finding that the person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of the intimate partner or child; or by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against the intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury.

(d) Nothing in this Article shall apply to officers authorized by law to carry firearms if the officers identify themselves to the vendor or donor as being officers authorized by law to carry firearms and provide any of the following:

(1) A letter signed by the officer's supervisor or superior officer stating that the officer is authorized by law to carry a firearm.

(2) A current photographic identification card issued by the officer's employer.

(3) A current photographic identification card issued by a State agency that identifies the individual as a law enforcement officer certified by the State of North Carolina.

(4) A current identification card issued by the officer's employer and another form of current photographic identification.

(e) The sheriff shall charge for the sheriff's services upon issuing the license or permit a fee of five dollars ($5.00).

(f) Each applicant for a license or permit shall be informed by the sheriff within 30 days of the date of the application whether the license or permit will be granted or denied and, if granted, the license or permit shall be immediately issued to the applicant.

(g) An applicant shall not be ineligible to receive a permit under subdivision (c)(4) of this section because of involuntary commitment to mental health services if the individual's rights have been restored under G.S. 122C‑54.1. (1919, c. 197, s. 3; C.S., s. 5108; 1959, c. 1073, s. 2; 1969, c. 73; 1981 (Reg. Sess., 1982), c. 1395, s. 1; 1987, c. 518, s. 1; 1995, c. 487, s. 2; 2006‑39, s. 1; 2006‑264, s. 4; 2008‑210, s. 3(a); 2009‑570, s. 7; 2010‑108, s. 4; 2011‑2, s. 1; 2011‑56, s. 2; 2011‑183, s. 13; 2011‑268, s. 10.)


Subsection (d) appears to exempt sworn officers from the requirement to obtain a purchase permit provided they provide the documentation listed. Nothing there requires the weapon be for "duty use". IIRC this was one of the changes made 12/1/2011 when we had all sorts of changes to gun laws, before that the firearm had to be for duty use to be exempt from the purchase permit requirement.

However, this statute makes no mention of LEOs being exempt. Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

14‑402. Sale of certain weapons without permit forbidden.

(a) It is unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation in this State to sell, give away, or transfer, or to purchase or receive, at any place within this State from any other place within or without the State any pistol unless: (i) a license or permit is first obtained under this Article by the purchaser or receiver from the sheriff of the county in which the purchaser or receiver resides; or (ii) a valid North Carolina concealed handgun permit is held under Article 54B of this Chapter by the purchaser or receiver who must be a resident of the State at the time of the purchase.

It is unlawful for any person or persons to receive from any postmaster, postal clerk, employee in the parcel post department, rural mail carrier, express agent or employee, railroad agent or employee within the State of North Carolina any pistol without having in his or their possession and without exhibiting at the time of the delivery of the same and to the person delivering the same the permit from the sheriff as provided in G.S. 14‑403. Any person violating the provisions of this section is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.

(b) This section does not apply to an antique firearm or an historic edged weapon.

(c) The following definitions apply in this Article:

(1) Antique firearm. – Defined in G.S. 14‑409.11.

(2), (3) Repealed by Session Laws 2011‑56, s. 1, effective April 28, 2011.

(4) Historic edged weapon. – Defined in G.S. 14‑409.12.

(5) through (7) Repealed by Session Laws 2011‑56, s. 1, effective April 28, 2011. (1919, c. 197, s. 1; C.S., s. 5106; 1923, c. 106; 1947, c. 781; 1959, c. 1073, s. 2; 1971, c. 133, s. 2; 1979, c. 895, ss. 1, 2; 1993, c. 287, s. 1; c. 539, s. 284; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c); 2004‑183, s. 1; 2004‑203, s. 1; 2009‑6, s. 2; 2011‑56, s. 1.)

JRH6856
February 26, 2013, 12:57 AM
Well, since the OP never got back to us, maybe he got busted... :eek:

CPshooter
February 26, 2013, 01:10 PM
LOL..nope, not busted.

The guy never called me, but sent me a few text messages about 45 minutes later. He said he had been thinking about the trade all day and decided he just wants to keep his P7M8. I wasn't going to argue with him given the circumstances.

Landric- thanks for posting that. So it does appear (to me anyways) that LEO credentials would work in place of a PPP/CCP. Very interesting.

NosaMSirhC
February 26, 2013, 05:16 PM
LOL..nope, not busted.

The guy never called me, but sent me a few text messages about 45 minutes later. He said he had been thinking about the trade all day and decided he just wants to keep his P7M8. I wasn't going to argue with him given the circumstances.

Landric- thanks for posting that. So it does appear (to me anyways) that LEO credentials would work in place of a PPP/CCP. Very interesting.

Maybe the seller lurks here on THR and followed this thread!

Glad it all worked out!

Be Safe!

NosaM

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