IMR4227 vs. Lil Gun for heavy .357?


PDA






Buck13
February 25, 2013, 03:08 PM
Two questions: Is IMR4227 usable with H4227 load data? I seem to be finding conflicting answers to this.

My LGS has IMR4227 and Lil Gun in stock (no H4227 or H110/W296). The slowest powder I have is AA#9. Not bad, but I'd like to make some real top-of-the-charts ammo with heavy bullets. From the data, the other powders listed go a good bit beyond #9. Given a choice between IMR4227 and Lil Gun, which and why?

If you enjoyed reading about "IMR4227 vs. Lil Gun for heavy .357?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
gamestalker
February 25, 2013, 03:27 PM
I've never used either one of those. But I think If I had to choose between them I would probably go with IMR-4227 just because of the feedback from others, and I think AA#9 is more expensive.

GS

Constrictor
February 25, 2013, 04:00 PM
never used lil gun but i really like 4227

bluetopper
February 25, 2013, 04:32 PM
Yes you can use H4227 data for IMR4227 as the current IMR4227 now manufactured is the old H4227..........H4227 is no longer made as such.

Never used 4227 or Lil Gun in 357, but I'm thinking 4227 powder is too slow to give top performance. That's my experience in 44 Mag anyway.

tightgroup tiger
February 25, 2013, 04:52 PM
I won't use Li'll Gun in a 357mag for heavy loads. I've read that it has a really bad problem of flame cutting your frame with really heavy loads.
I've never used 4227 but I would choose it over Li'll Gun just because of that.

Buck13
February 25, 2013, 05:18 PM
How is 4227 for muzzle flash? I'm not real concerned about that, but you can imagine scenarios where it matters.

buck460XVR
February 25, 2013, 06:28 PM
IMR4227 is a favorite powder of mine in .357 mag and .44 mag. It is my go to powder in .460 mag. It works very well in long piped revolvers and carbines. It does not give quite the velocity of H110/W296, but outta my guns it's just as accurate and is not as temperature sensitive. It can also be downloaded safely like 2400 and meters very well. I too heard the story that the new IMR4227 is the old H4227 and the old IMR4227 was discontinued....thus you could use H4227 data for it. When I e-mailed IMR/Hodgdon about it, they told me no. There is plenty of published data out there for it anyway. I too no longer use Lil' Gun in revolvers because of the excessive forcing cone erosion attributed to it. So pickin' IMR4227 over it for revolvers is a no brainer. Lil' Gun still works well in carbines chambered in handgun calibers tho.

Constrictor
February 25, 2013, 08:39 PM
How is 4227 for muzzle flash? I'm not real concerned about that, but you can imagine scenarios where it matters.
4227 is slow powder so there is significant muzzle flash.

bluetopper
February 26, 2013, 12:13 AM
I do know for a fact that Freedom Arms warns against using Lil Gun in their revolvers because of forcing cone erosion and the high heat generated by the powder. For this reason alone I'll never buy any.

Eb1
February 26, 2013, 12:23 AM
I know this isn't in regards to .357, but I thought I'd share an IMR 4227 experience for you.

I shoot .44 Mag with IMR 4227. I tried everything to get accuracy out of my SBH, and someone mentioned IMR 4227. With 22.0 grains and a 240 Keith bullet it is darn accurate out of the 5.5" barrel, and moves between 1300 and 1350 fps.

It has way less muzzle flash than 2400, and the recoil is a nice push vs. the whippy 2400 recoil. I like IMR 4227. A lot. It also shoots to the same POA/POI as 7 grains of Trail Boss and the same bullet out to 25 yards.

It is my understanding that IMR 4227 is not the same as H4227. And from load manuals I have read, the loading's are different between the two.

Buck13
February 26, 2013, 12:54 AM
Hmm. The Hodgdon/IMR/Winchester reloading data center site doesn't have any loads under PISTOL .357 Mag for both h4227 and IMR4227 for the same bullet, except for one bullet in which the max load listed for H4227 has a pressure of 42,000 and the max for IMR4227 has a pressure of 33,000, so those clearly can't be compared.

HOWEVER, if you look at RIFLE .357 Mag there are a couple of bullets listed with data for both powders (125 grain XTP, 158 grain XTP) and in both cases, the grains of powder, velocities and pressures are exactly the same for the starting and max loads.

Am I the only one who finds it hard to believe these are not the same powder now?

I should have given this thread a different title! :rolleyes:

Eb1
February 26, 2013, 01:13 AM
:scrutiny: Tell you what, BUCK13. You will have an answer straight from the horses mouth in a few days. I sent an e-mail to Hodgdon asking if they were the same powder. I will fill you in when we get the answer.

ArchAngelCD
February 26, 2013, 01:44 AM
Lil'Gun generates a lot of velocity and a lot of heat too. It will deliver higher velocities with less pressure than any other powder in it's burn rate zone but then again, there is the problem with forcing cones so be very careful if you do use it.

Since i can't be sure it won't damage my revolvers I decided to use Lil'Gun for heavy bullet .357 Magnum ammo shot only in my Carbine.

627PCFan
February 26, 2013, 11:42 AM
2 years ago I bought a pound of IMR4227 (the new version of H4227). I used it in my 125gn XTP loads. Got me about 1450FPS out of a 5 inch barrel, but I couldnt get past the smell. Big bowtie of flash from the forcing cone. Got to be the worse smelling power ever. Its just an OK powder, wouldnt buy more.

Buck13
February 26, 2013, 11:43 AM
OK, I will look away from the beguiling velocity data for Lil Gun! :cool: Too bad you can't buy it by the ounce. Load half a box, shoot a few to verify and save the last dozen for a special occasion.

Jesse Heywood
February 26, 2013, 01:01 PM
Get the 4227. I bought a can during the last scare, not much choice then, either. It was soon my favorite powder for lead in a 357. One day I was shooting 45 Colt loaded with a class II charge of 4227. It was definitely pushing my model 25 back. The guy next to me laid down his 45 acp and wanted to know what the heck I was shooting. :evil:

Buck13
February 26, 2013, 08:54 PM
Got to be the worse smelling power ever.

A good reminder that if you're smelling powder, you're also breathing stuff that's not terribly good for you. I notice the smell more at the outdoor range! The indoor range must be doing the ventilation right.

I have to admit, I do like the smell of AA#9.

Edit: I took the meaning here to be the smell of the burned powders. If you meant unburned, I have no opinion about it...

beefyz
February 26, 2013, 10:06 PM
"Tell you what, BUCK13. You will have an answer straight from the horses mouth in a few days. I sent an e-mail to Hodgdon asking if they were the same powder. I will fill you in when we get the answer. "

I'd be interested in the answer also.
A few months ago i had the same question. every time i have called Hodgdon i get either of 2 different guys, both gentleman and nice to converse with. i was told at that time that the imr 4227 could be subbed for the H. Regardless, even with this "good to go" directly from the horse's mouth, doesn't good reloading savvy dictate that one should reduce a given load 5/10% when substituting a different component ?
i use the imr extensively in .30 cal carbine, .357 rifle, 32-20 rifle, & 30-30. good powder.

Buck13
February 27, 2013, 12:09 PM
OK, Hodgdon was closed due to snow yesterday. Called them this morning and the support guy I spoke to (Mike? Wasn't focused on remembering his name) said that you could use the H4227 data for IMR4227 powder. I repeated the question "you can use the data interchangeably?" and he said yes.

I guess that means "yes." :)

Fatelvis
February 27, 2013, 10:16 PM
I love 4227 when using 215grn cast bullets in my 357 Max Contender (12") and Dan Wesson revolver (8"). Good velocities, accurate, and clean burning.

buck460XVR
February 28, 2013, 01:23 AM
OK, Hodgdon was closed due to snow yesterday. Called them this morning and the support guy I spoke to (Mike? Wasn't focused on remembering his name) said that you could use the H4227 data for IMR4227 powder. I repeated the question "you can use the data interchangeably?" and he said yes.

I guess that means "yes." :)

It was a tech named Mike that responded to my e-mail question about the same thing a few months back. I dunno if it's the same Mike or not, (I'll go back theu the old e-mails and see if I can find it) but at that time he told me the data was NOT interchangeable............***?:banghead:



Found it! Response was May 14th of last year.


Here was the question I put to them....

What's the deal with the two 4227s? I was told by one source that the new IMR4227 is the old H4227 renamed and that the old IMR4227 has been discontinued. Does this mean that the data provided by you in your free web based reloading data for H4227 is correct for the new IMR4227?



Here is their response....

H4227 was discontinued about 3 years ago. It was/is not interchangeable with IMR4227. These two powders use different data.



Mike Daly

Customer Service Manager

Hodgdon Family of Fine Propellants

Hodgdon Smokeless Powder

IMR Powder Company

Winchester Smokeless Propellants

GOEX Blackpowder

Eb1
February 28, 2013, 01:37 AM
It is not the same powder. Just as H4895 and IMR4985 are NOT the same.

ljnowell
February 28, 2013, 01:41 AM
What exactly are you shooting for in 357 loads that AA#9 wont do it? I believe they show about 1300fps with a 180gr and 1500fps with a 158 gr. Thats pretty darned smoking.

Peter M. Eick
February 28, 2013, 05:25 PM
Lil gun burns physically hot. If you shoot a few rounds you will find your gun physically worn. I did not like how hot it made my 10mm's and 357 Maximums so I refuse to use it. This was before I read about Freedom Arm's experience.

4227 is a great powder and my standard for 357 Maximum.

336A
February 28, 2013, 09:18 PM
Don't for get about Alliant's new Power Pro 300MP powder. I know that there is not much lterature out there on it but it appears to be very promising. Brian Pearce did a article on it a while back in Handloader and spoke very highly of it. Here is a pretty good write up some one did comparing 300MP with other popular powders in the .357 mag.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/267122-357-mag-158gr-study.html

Hope this helps.

Buck13
March 1, 2013, 10:39 AM
What exactly are you shooting for in 357 loads that AA#9 wont do it? I believe they show about 1300fps with a 180gr and 1500fps with a 158 gr. Thats pretty darned smoking.

The Lee manual shows H4227 data that is 10% faster than AA#9. That's 21% more kinetic energy, which I'd call a real difference. Just for special occasions, when only the most painful recoil will do! ;)

OTOH, I finally remembered to look in my Lyman manual, and IMR4227 is shown giving essentially the same results as #9. However, I still bought the IMR because it was *available*, while a replacement can of #9 is currently vaporware. So, I can use the 4227 in the .357 and save the #9 for my 10 mm pistol. More of a strategic choice than a difference in results.

336A
March 1, 2013, 05:29 PM
The Lee manual shows H4227 data that is 10% faster than AA#9. That's 21% more kinetic energy, which I'd call a real difference. Just for special occasions, when only the most painful recoil will do!

Some times paper numbers don't really amount to much nor do they tell the whole truth. Kinetic energy is not the end all be all nor does it make a huge difference. John Linebaugh wrote a really good article on the S&W 25-5 in .45 Colt. In that article there is a table included that shows a 275gr bullet doing 1170fps, and the exact same bullet with roughly 10% less velocity and 21% less kinetic energy. Notice how there is not a huge difference in terminal performance between the two loads.

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=12

ljnowell
March 1, 2013, 06:25 PM
Some times paper numbers don't really amount to much nor do they tell the whole truth. Kinetic energy is not the end all be all nor does it make a huge difference. John Linebaugh wrote a really good article on the S&W 25-5 in .45 Colt. In that article there is a table included that shows a 275gr bullet doing 1170fps, and the exact same bullet with roughly 10% less velocity and 21% less kinetic energy. Notice how there is not a huge difference in terminal performance between the two loads.

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=12

Yep. Also, I have noticed that when looking at max loadings h110/296 always tops alliant 2400. However, I have seen many real world tests in real guns that show when loaded to book max with the same bullet and same case 2400 is the same, or in some cases beats 296, depending on the gun.

There are just too many variables in the hobby of reloading.

If you enjoyed reading about "IMR4227 vs. Lil Gun for heavy .357?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!