[Pancho]

I'm 65 and I've been shooting BP since 1964 and I've always followed the rules but now that I'm older I'm beginning to wonder about questions I've never asked.
Are store bought smokeless 45/70 rounds safe to shoot in an original Sharps or Springfield trapdoor? In other words do the manufacturers reduce the amount of smokeless to near match the chamber pressures of a bp round?
Based on the collective answer to this question there will be more "questions I've never asked".

[AlexanderA]

Factory .45-70 ammo is loaded so as to be safe in Trapdoors in good condition. I'm not sure about the Sharps but I would think the same applies to that too.

[boommer]

NO do not shoot FACTORY LOADS in a original TPd you will playing with fire, will it hold up? The other problem is the bore on those old girls .460+ and most modern bullets are .457 so they will rattle down the barrel. Cast boolits .com site has a post in single shots thread with pictures shows a trappy with the evils of smokeless.

[BHP FAN]

Ultramax has Black powder equivilant, low pressure ammo, loaded on super strong Starline brass, and you can get a Lee Loader and a 405/.459 mold from Lee, and some Goex 2f and some large rifle primers, and have a lot of fun. It's safe factory ammo, and prime reloadable brass all in one!

http://stage.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/100-rounds-45-70-cowboy-action-405-grain-long-range-rifle-ammo.aspx?a=149168

http://leeprecision.com/lee-loader-45-70-govt.html

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/363401/lee-1-cavity-bullet-mold-459-405-hb-45-70-government-459-diameter-405-grain-flat-nose-hollow-base

[boommer]

BHP FAN looking at puppy loads there not your standard of the shelf 45-70 rounds and a gun when comes apart stronger brass is not going to help you.
Starline brass is great brass but not super strong. PONCHO was asking if you could go into a store grab a box of shells and not worry about blowing himself up.

[StrawHat]

Remington, Winchester and Federal all make or have made rounds that are safe in the Springfield Single shot rifle. Buffalo and others similar rounds are not.

I have an 1866 and an 1873 Springfield, I now use only black powder but previously have used smokeless in both. I have switched to black powder because in my rifles, it is more accurate.

It is a myth that the 1873 is a weak rifle. Just before the Spanish American war, the armory was testing smokeless powder for the 45-70. When the war interupted, all the focus was on the 30 Gov't Cartridge and the 45-70 smokeless round was dropped in favor of the tried and true black powder round.

[Pancho]

Actually what I was asking is by what measure do the manufacturers of 45/70 smokeless rounds load their rounds. Do they load them to equal the chamber pressure of 70grains of black Powder.
I don't own a trapdoor or a Sharps but I do own a 1910 Colt Police Positive revolver in 32/20. It's a family gun just received due to the death of my uncle. It came with 350 rounds of 32/20 modern ammo made by Winchester.
My Uncle was an avid shooter and reloader and the gun was purchased by my grandfather for my grandmother as a home protection gun.......It's beautiful.

[BHP FAN]

I own two Trapdoors, and load for both. I have an H&R from 1976, and an original 1884 rifle, cut to a carbine, with a Douglas Premium Air Gage barrel. What I gave the OP was an easy way to procure loaded, modern ammo, he could then reload on his own I use mostly Goex or Swiss, black powder, but like Straw Hat, it's because it's accurate. The previous owner of the 1884 loaded only smokeless, useing 3031, but black powder equivilent loads. There are lots of safe loads in the data out there, just look up ''Trapdoor Loads''....

[boommer]

Fine go tell him go tell him go tell him go to the shelf go buy 45-70 rounds and yes they loaded rounds until they hit 70.000 psi and it come apart, it was a modern HR action. No that action is a very strong action, but 125 or older metal comes into play. I guess the best thing here is here we talk over different points of view.

[Pancho]

Ok, just to make sure I get this right. I know that 32/20,44/40,45/70 etc. were nomenclatures used in the bp days to describe caliber and the amount of bp contained in the round and that these rounds are available today in smokeless powder and that they are loaded to approximate the chamber pressures of bp.
Is this a correct conclusion?

[Jim K]

OK, Boommer, how many trapdoors have YOU seen come apart with modern factory ammo? How many .45-70 factory loads have you tested with a pressure gauge and found to reach 70,000 psi?

I don't recommend shooting a trapdoor extensively with modern ammo, but I have fired them enough to know that "they will blow up" is nonsense.

Jim

[rcmodel]

+1

Modern smokeless powder lead bullet standard loads for the old black powder calibers are loaded to safe pressure to use in any older black power firearm in reasonably good condition.

Modern smokeless power lead bullet pressure standards are:
32-20 = 16,000 CUP.
.32 S&W Long = 15,000 CUP.
45-70 = 28,000 CUP
38-40 = 14,000 CUP.
44-40 = 13,000 CUP.
.45 Colt = 14,000 CUP.

As a frame of reference:.
.44 Magnum = 35,000 PSI.
.444 Marlin = 44,000 CUP.
220 Swift = 54,000 CUP.
30-06 = 60,000 PSI.



Stay away from 45-70 +P loads, or Buffalo Bore bear stomper Marlin loads, and you can shoot your 45-70 till heck freezes over with factory standard pressure smokeless loads.

The ammo companies are not loading anything that will blow up and shoot your eye out if you buy a box of 405 grain 45-70 to shoot in great granddads Trapdoor every year on new years eve!

If they were, they would already have been sued out of business long ago.

rc

[Pancho]

Based on what I've found so far from friends that I've read and respected for quite awhile I'm going to start a new thread with my second "question never asked". Stick with me on this one Strawhat, Jim K, BHP Fan, and rcmodel.

[boommer]

boommer read the test they did on a a trapdoor action to were they pushed it to max but it was modern action and it came apart on 70.000 psi load.
The modern loads or factory as we we call them, no reloads off the shelf are .457dia into 460+ barrel will relive pressures. No Never seen a trap blown up with factory loads But I don't know anybody who would do that! but you say you don't recommend as a steady diet Why NOT JUST KEEP FEEDING if it's so safe! The point you need to get here is old rifle here and you need to understand , is you need to respect it or it will blow up in your face.
I'm a guy has 10 fingers and face and no mishaps in 30 years of reloading and have a couple of trappys and they only see Black.

[StrawHat]

Pancho, looking forward to the next question!

As for the 32-20, the factories did load that cartridge to two levels. One intended for revolvers and the other for rifes. The rifle stuff is marked High Speed or similar. Enough illiterates used it in revolvers and caused enough damage that the rifle loading was removed from the market.

Are you sure the 32 WCF ammunition you have is factory stuff? You said Uncle was a handloader... Too bad you do not have his notes to go along with the loads.

[StrawHat]

Mention has been made of a thread about a Trapdoor that let go. This was a rifle that was rebuilt by a very knowledgeable gunsmith and was used with reloaded ammunition. Reloaded, as in, NOT factory. The OP asked about factory ammunition.

[zimmerstutzen]

For gosh sakes, there is factory ammo for most old cartridges that is far too hot for an original gun and there is some really mild stuff on the shelf as well.

Under no circumstances would I fire copper jacketed bullets through an old mild steel barrel. No sense swaging the bore smooth.

I don't care what tests were done with super whupbutt powder. There were variations in manufacture and quality of steel, especially in the early days.

Some old steels will work harden and become brittle.

There were some early high arch trapdoors that aren't fit for any smokeless loads (although IIRC they are 50-70 models)

You can push the envelope all you want, it is your face and hands.

[pohill]

I reload for my 50-70. I would not use ammo that someone I did not know loaded, especially if it contained smokeless powder.
As far as the smokeless/BP pressures, isn't it all about the immediate "spike" from ignition? Doesn't BP build pressures more slowly than smokeless, and isn't that a safety concern in a 140 yr old rifle?

[Patocazador]

Old steel can't be trusted. My broomhandle Mauser was made in 1897. There are many cases of the bolt stop fracturing and the bolt flying back into the face of the shooter with the broomhandle.
Be safe not sorry.

[BHP FAN]

Ultramax .45-70 is ''Cowboy Ammo'' specifically loaded to low pressures, with antique guns in mind, and isn't really ''off the shelf''' modern ammo. It's actually ''gentler'' than my BP reloads.

[Cosmoline]

Actually what I was asking is by what measure do the manufacturers of 45/70 smokeless rounds load their rounds. Do they load them to equal the chamber pressure of 70grains of black Powder.

There are three classes of .45/70 each with its own pressure parameters. The first is the original black powder or equivalent like trailboss. These will be so marked if sold by a factory. The second is standard hunting rounds which are usually NOT certified safe for a trapdoor. They run at a higher pressure than the black powder. The third are the old "Ruger or Siamese Mauser only" loads, and used to be handload only. But now a number of companies like B Bore and Garret sell them. They are not safe for trapdoors or other vintage .45-70's. It's basically a different cartridge.

[unknwn]

"...each with its own pressure parameters. The first is the original black powder or equivalent like trailboss."

I have repeatadly read that Trailboss powder is NOT a BP equivalence or substitute.
My understanding is that Trailboss powder should only be considered "safer" for reloading situations that could otherwise easily succumb to inadvertant over/double charges due to it's bulky makeup causing an overflow from the case mouth when very large or excessive amounts are used.

[Pancho]

If you get the chance search Youtube for a "hickock 45" segment showing the comparative burn rate of BP vs. smokeless. Smokeless looks very progressive while BP is all at once.
Hickock lays out a poured line of each and sets each one off. The smokeless burns in a predictable line at a predictable rate BP on the other hand burns all at once.

[zimmerstutzen]

Pancho, that is extremely misleading because under pressure in a barrel, it is the exact opposite.

[Pancho]

zimmer, do you think that it's because of the availability of extra O2 when bp is burnt in free air?