What does this mean please?


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8mmman
February 25, 2013, 08:34 PM
triied to post and ad and this pops up... Did I do someting wrong or what. Thanks Tom


You have reached the maximum number of threads (12) allowed in a 524160 minute period for this forum.

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Robert
February 25, 2013, 08:49 PM
If you are seeing this in the buy sell and trade forum I'd venture a guess that you reached the 12 post limit that was instituted for non commercial posters. But that is just a guess.

griff383
March 5, 2013, 11:51 PM
So as regular folks we cant start more than 12 threads in a year? If this is the case when was this policy implemented?

Im not trying to start anything, just making sure that I am up to date on policy.

Mal H
March 6, 2013, 02:31 AM
As Robert indicated above, the restriction is only in the 4 non-commercial Trading Post forums. Each member is limited to 12 new threads in any one of the for-sale forums per 365 days (IOW, a rolling years time) for a max of 48 new threads.

Mike Sr.
April 11, 2013, 01:06 PM
what about a thread/post which, after week, 2 weeks, 3 week, etc proves un-eventful and poster thinks it's best to close the post by locking it up! Since a poster can not delele his thread but only lock it...why should this thread be counted?

bikerdoc
April 11, 2013, 01:40 PM
^ New posts as under lined above.

Mal H
April 11, 2013, 02:18 PM
...why should this thread be counted?
I guess I could ask why shouldn't it be counted? Unsuccessfully selling items isn't much different from successfully selling them. You still created a thread for us to monitor and which takes up space in our database.

Mike Sr.
April 11, 2013, 06:28 PM
It does take up space, and all web master are concerned with web space but on the other hand we can't DELETE a post!!!!


It makes sense to me if my post does not generate any interest then close it!!! You keep it up not me...if it was up to me I would delete it not simply close it. Why not just have a simple expiration time after that it's GONE....and a web master does not have to worry about 'space'.

I don't think posters are responsible for wasting space! Having a locked post exist for an infinite period of time wastes space!

rbernie
April 11, 2013, 10:06 PM
I was of the impression that members were responsible for the interest (or lack thereof) in their threads. Now I come to learn that it's really the responsibility of the site rules and forum moderators.

Who knew?

bikerdoc
April 11, 2013, 10:37 PM
If this is the case when was this policy implemented?


4/9/13 by the owner and senior staff of the forum.

Non commercial members with 30 day membership and an undisclosed number of meaningful post that contribute to the mission of THR and the advancement of the RKBA will be allowed 12 new threads each rolling year in each of the 4 B/S/T categories.

Period.
Amen.
End of discussion.

Mike Sr.
April 12, 2013, 12:27 AM
Non commercial members [NCM] with 30 day membership and an undisclosed number of meaningful post that contribute to the mission of THR and the advancement of the RKBA will be allowed 12 post each rolling year in all of the 4 B/S/T categories.
==============================================

the 4 B/S/T categories does this mean
: For Buy, Sell, Trade categories (4 B/S/T categories) ..?

If the 30 day NCM limit post's to 12 then what does an 8 year NCM allow for the number of posts?

Mal H
April 12, 2013, 02:14 AM
the 4 B/S/T categories does this mean
: For Buy, Sell, Trade categories (4 B/S/T categories) ..?
It means 12 new threads in each of the four (4) Trading Post forums of the "Private Sales" group.

If the 30 day NCM limit post's to 12 then what does an 8 year NCM allow for the number of posts?
Once again, posts are not limited, only the creation of new threads. There is a difference between posts and threads in this context. However, if you're asking if being a member for 8 years allows for a greater number of new threads, the answer is no.

9mmepiphany
April 12, 2013, 04:03 AM
There seems to be some confusion here.

Non-Commercial members are allowed 12 new threads, in each B/S/T forum, during any 365 day period. After that 365 days, that thread is no longer counted against the 12.

It was determined, after much discussion, that this was a reasonable number of new threads for a member active in the Trading Post. More than that level of activity would be indicative of behavior consistent with that of the Commercial Member classification.

Commercial Members do not have the same limit of new threads in their forums.

We ask that new members contribute to the discussion forums for a reasonable period of time (30 days) before they gain access to the Trading Post

Rail Driver
April 13, 2013, 12:05 PM
Seems to me that it's a fantastic way to entice commercial entities to pay THR for access.

Great way to make money considering the size and reach of THR.

Next thing we'll see an announcement about a marketing director being hired, and THR going incorporated :P
(that's a joke)

Really though - 12 threads might seem a bit light to some of you that post something new every other day, but for those of us not engaging in the business of dealing in firearms (ie, those of us NOT attempting to skirt the law regardless of how we feel about it), 12 is plenty.

Initially when this issue came up, I had a problem with it - Then I sat back and really thought about the costs to run the forum itself - Sure the advertising revenue probably covers the domain registration and the bandwidth, but what about the rest of the expenses? The servers, the frequent upgrades, etc... Is that money supposed to come out of the admins pocket?

I would probably adjust the limits if it were my place, but it's not.

In the end, this forum is a privately owned board. It's NOT a democracy, it's NOT a republic - it's a monarchy (or a dictatorship if you will).

Regular users have little to no say in how things are run here. If they did, the place would probably not be nearly as large, and possibly wouldn't exist anymore.

I say rock on guys. This is one of the best firearms forums on the internet (and one of my permanent tabs in my browser).

mavracer
April 13, 2013, 01:21 PM
seriously!!!! griping because the forum owner and staff ONLY let you have free advertizing for 12 items a year. :banghead::fire::cuss:

What make you think you should be entitled to more?

JShirley
April 13, 2013, 03:12 PM
Actually, 12 per each FS/T forum, so a total of 48. Too generous, IMO, but then again, I have an idea of potential ad revenue and costs to run a forum like this. Fully half of the ads signed-in members see are RKBA "public service announcements" that are a THR donation to protecting our firearms rights.

Rail Driver
April 13, 2013, 04:27 PM
Actually, 12 per each FS/T forum, so a total of 48. Too generous, IMO, but then again, I have an idea of potential ad revenue and costs to run a forum like this. Fully half of the ads signed-in members see are RKBA "public service announcements" that are a THR donation to protecting our firearms rights.
While I understand the need for ad revenue (or revenue of some kind) in order to cover the operating costs and overhead of the forum, I don't think these kind of hard limits are the answer unless you were also limiting the forum to be either ad-free, or two user groups (commercial paid unlimited, and standard free users, limited). Doing both does bring in significantly more money, but where is the line? When does THR cease being a repository for gun knowledge, a gun rights and education forum, and a place for gun lovers to socialize; and start being a money making venture for whoever is in charge?

I guess what I'm asking, is this: Is THR a business, or is THR a gun rights and education forum?

If it's a business, then there's only one goal - to make money. If it's a gun rights and education forum, money shouldn't be a factor beyond covering the actual operating costs and overhead in my opinion.

I understand running a forum this large requires a lot of time and a fair amount of work - that isn't lost on me. I always saw that kind of thing as a hobby. A labor of love as it were.

Over the past few years, however, I'm seeing more and more ads, then the two user groups (paid and free), and now these limits on the free users - Is the eventual goal of THR to become a business or corporation? That's what it looks like to me based on my observations over the time I've been here. If so, what happens to us regular users when that happens? Do we all get tossed out in favor of businesses and companies that want to pay for a service? I figure that without us regular free users, the businesses and companies that do pay to play would leave.

Just my point of view, mixed with some valid questions. Not trying to stir anything up or start any problems.

Derek Zeanah
April 13, 2013, 05:55 PM
I understand running a forum this large requires a lot of time and a fair amount of work - that isn't lost on me. I always saw that kind of thing as a hobby. A labor of love as it were.Remember the slowness we saw in December/January? That was fixed by installing a new SAN, which wasn't cheap. Monthly hosting costs don't rise to the same level as my mortgage, but they're not a whole lot less expensive, either.

I'm not saying this to complain or generate sympathy; rather, I'm saying that THR's hosting costs are significant, and if you're used to hosting a few servers that only require the horsepower that Linode can give you for $20 per month or so, then you're using an invalid metric.

With regard to paid commercial memberships, they don't generate much and I'm kind of indifferent, which is why I put off implementing them for so long. There are members of staff who see this as an important issue, however. In the end, my understanding is that it comes down to an issue of fairness: THR is a community where a lot of us talk about guns and shooting. We've got a lot of members who are only here to buy and sell, however, who don't generally contribute in other ways.

This rankles lots of staff members, who invest more hours in keeping this place tidy than they would to a second job. The consensus seems to be that if you're using THR as an extension of your business (a virtual extension to your gun counter, for instance), then you ought to contribute in some way. Some commercial sellers didn't pay anything monetary to the upkeep here, but they did contribute something of value to someone here that can use it.

It's really a fairness issue.

Over the past few years, however, I'm seeing more and more ads, then the two user groups (paid and free), and now these limits on the free users - Is the eventual goal of THR to become a business or corporation? That's what it looks like to me based on my observations over the time I've been here. If so, what happens to us regular users when that happens? Do we all get tossed out in favor of businesses and companies that want to pay for a service? I figure that without us regular free users, the businesses and companies that do pay to play would leave.
If it was about money I'd just sell the thing to Cheaper than Dirt, cash the check, and be done with it.

I care much more about the community however, but funding this entire thing out of pocket (with the occasional contribution) was no longer possible a couple of years ago.

I've tried hard to insure that monetary concerns don't have any more than a minor effect on the community, however. Ads are limited to a maximum of two per page if you're logged in, and one (more intrusive) ad if you're just browsing as a guest.
Ads you see are topical, with a bunch thrown in to promote responsible firearm ownership (our mission). I could fill these in with paid ads from an ad network and increase revenue, but I don't need to in order to cover costs, so I don't.
Guests do see ads from ad networks. If they don't like them, then can join. ;) This seems fair as until you join and contribute you're not really a member of the community.
There are no plans to increase the number of ads displayed on THR, though I'd love to land some big advertisers and have more paying ads in the current ad slots. (Are you listening, Smith & Wesson?)
Ownership concerns are clearly delineated from the day-to-day running of the forum. Staff has veto power over most everything that doesn't expose THR to unnecessary legal risks. That disclaimer at the bottom of the page was one of these -- my lawyer seemed to think it was really important.I pay to run this place and put the time and effort in to keep things running technically. I also take the blame when stuff breaks, or when a cost saving measure I make (like my choice of storage area network, which was way too slow to keep up last year) fails to deliver as promised.

But monetary considerations are pretty well isolated from the decision making that runs this place. John knows how much the new storage area network cost me (hence his comment above), but for the most part Staff do what they feel is in the best interest of the forum while I just keep the place running and occasionally comment on the day-to-day stuff.

With this sales issue, this is something that Staff thought was necessary. After lots of discussion, including lots of talking about this here in tech support, it was decided that if you're selling more than 12 long guns, 12 pistols, and as many accessories in a year then you're probably a commercial seller. If you're making money from selling here, then you can pay for the privilege (and segregate your sales so that someone looking for a face-to-face purchase doesn't go through a week of negotiations only to discover he's found an in-state gun shop). If you're *not* making money from it, then you should be able to batch sell your offerings so you only post once per month with all your long guns for sale, for instance.

And if you're selling a lot but not making money, it was decided that you're a failed businessman, or you're lying about your commercial interest. If you sell 20 handguns here a year, then a commercial membership costs you less than $10 per sale. If you can't cover that, then you should simply post multiple items per post and you shouldn't see your use of the buy/sell/trade forums impacted much.

Beyond that, talk to staff. The decision's been made, and there are lots of complaints from a few high-volume sellers, but staff have still decided to crack down a bit more.

It's not mercenary; it's part of keeping THR on the path staff want for it. That is, THR is a resource for its users primarily, and there are very few folks who sell more than 12 items per category per year. Sometimes regular users get caught, but we're here to deal with those issues directly -- just PM someone on staff.

Rail Driver
April 13, 2013, 06:08 PM
Remember the slowness we saw in December/January? That was fixed by installing a new SAN, which wasn't cheap. Monthly hosting costs don't rise to the same level as my mortgage, but they're not a whole lot less expensive, either.

I'm not saying this to complain or generate sympathy; rather, I'm saying that THR's hosting costs are significant, and if you're used to hosting a few servers that only require the horsepower that Linode can give you for $20 per month or so, then you're using an invalid metric.

With regard to paid commercial memberships, they don't generate much and I'm kind of indifferent, which is why I put off implementing them for so long. There are members of staff who see this as an important issue, however. In the end, my understanding is that it comes down to an issue of fairness: THR is a community where a lot of us talk about guns and shooting. We've got a lot of members who are only here to buy and sell, however, who don't generally contribute in other ways.

This rankles lots of staff members, who invest more hours in keeping this place tidy than they would to a second job. The consensus seems to be that if you're using THR as an extension of your business (a virtual extension to your gun counter, for instance), then you ought to contribute in some way. Some commercial sellers didn't pay anything monetary to the upkeep here, but they did contribute something of value to someone here that can use it.

It's really a fairness issue.

If it was about money I'd just sell the thing to Cheaper than Dirt, cash the check, and be done with it.

I care much more about the community however, but funding this entire thing out of pocket (with the occasional contribution) was no longer possible a couple of years ago.

I've tried hard to insure that monetary concerns don't have any more than a minor effect on the community, however. Ads are limited to a maximum of two per page if you're logged in, and one (more intrusive) ad if you're just browsing as a guest.
Ads you see are topical, with a bunch thrown in to promote responsible firearm ownership (our mission). I could fill these in with paid ads from an ad network and increase revenue, but I don't need to in order to cover costs, so I don't.
Guests do see ads from ad networks. If they don't like them, then can join. ;) This seems fair as until you join and contribute you're not really a member of the community.
There are no plans to increase the number of ads displayed on THR, though I'd love to land some big advertisers and have more paying ads in the current ad slots. (Are you listening, Smith & Wesson?)
Ownership concerns are clearly delineated from the day-to-day running of the forum. Staff has veto power over most everything that doesn't expose THR to unnecessary legal risks. That disclaimer at the bottom of the page was one of these -- my lawyer seemed to think it was really important.I pay to run this place and put the time and effort in to keep things running technically. I also take the blame when stuff breaks, or when a cost saving measure I make (like my choice of storage area network, which was way too slow to keep up last year) fails to deliver as promised.

But monetary considerations are pretty well isolated from the decision making that runs this place. John knows how much the new storage area network cost me (hence his comment above), but for the most part Staff do what they feel is in the best interest of the forum while I just keep the place running and occasionally comment on the day-to-day stuff.

With this sales issue, this is something that Staff thought was necessary. After lots of discussion, including lots of talking about this here in tech support, it was decided that if you're selling more than 12 long guns, 12 pistols, and as many accessories in a year then you're probably a commercial seller. If you're making money from selling here, then you can pay for the privilege (and segregate your sales so that someone looking for a face-to-face purchase doesn't go through a week of negotiations only to discover he's found an in-state gun shop). If you're *not* making money from it, then you should be able to batch sell your offerings so you only post once per month with all your long guns for sale, for instance.

And if you're selling a lot but not making money, it was decided that you're a failed businessman, or you're lying about your commercial interest. If you sell 20 handguns here a year, then a commercial membership costs you less than $10 per sale. If you can't cover that, then you should simply post multiple items per post and you shouldn't see your use of the buy/sell/trade forums impacted much.

Beyond that, talk to staff. The decision's been made, and there are lots of complaints from a few high-volume sellers, but staff have still decided to crack down a bit more.

It's not mercenary; it's part of keeping THR on the path staff want for it. That is, THR is a resource for its users primarily, and there are very few folks who sell more than 12 items per category per year. Sometimes regular users get caught, but we're here to deal with those issues directly -- just PM someone on staff.

Thanks for taking the time to explain it - One thing I'd like to note - Perhaps granting regular users the ability to edit their for sale posts would be a good idea then? I feel it would be in the interest of NOT having to bother overworked mods with making changes to or delete a 12 page for sale ad simply because the way the forum is set up with the thread limit. The inability to edit for sale threads prevents batching in an easy to read manner, instead requiring one to simply add to a potentially already long thread, especially for those who buy sell and trade frequently, but not so much that it could be considered "engaging in the business of..." After all - many of us don't ONLY post for sale threads - many of us post "want to buy" threads too.

I'm not saying the limitation is wrong or bad - just that it could use some fine tuning in my opinion.

**Edit to add: I also just noticed that you've only got one moderator for the entire for sale section of the forum, even though it has almost as much activity of some of the other subforums that have 2 or 3 moderators - perhaps that's also something that might benefit from some attention? (granted, I'm not sure whether it's always been that way, or if that's a new thing - but you did mention how much time the classifieds section takes for the mods to deal with, yet there's only one mod to deal with it out of 20+ moderators)

Walkalong
April 13, 2013, 06:10 PM
THR reaches a great audience. That makes it a great place for sellers to advertise their wares and make money. High volume sellers simply cannot expect to continue to use that benefit for free.

The average gun owner/member wanting to sell off an item here or there that they have grown tired of or want to raise money for something else with, are unlikely to be affected by the limits.

jj1962hemi
April 13, 2013, 06:15 PM
Thanks for your insights Derek. I've never used the B/S/T features, and I am enjoying the fellowship and knowledge shared by this bunch. If it really annoys people (who aren't paying), they can go over to GB or somewhere that has an express purpose of selling things.

Keep up the good work!

JJ

Derek Zeanah
April 13, 2013, 06:17 PM
Thanks for taking the time to explain it - One thing I'd like to note - Perhaps granting regular users the ability to edit their for sale posts would be a good idea then? I feel it would be in the interest of NOT having to bother overworked mods with making changes to or delete a 12 page for sale ad simply because the way the forum is set up with the thread limit. The inability to edit for sale threads prevents batching in an easy to read manner, instead requiring one to simply add to a potentially already long thread, especially for those who buy sell and trade frequently, but not so much that it could be considered "engaging in the business of..." After all - many of us don't ONLY post for sale threads - many of us post "want to buy" threads too.
There are a couple of problems with that:
Once upon a time we had scammers sell an item, then tweak the for sale post, then deliver something else. Not exactly fair.
If you can keep 12 for sale posts running per for sale forum, then an online gun dealer can use those as 12 running inventory slots and continue to just sell here rather than contributing in some more meaningful way.If there was a way to segregate out WTB or trade-only threads then I think we'd probably do that, but it's not really possible the way vBulletin is built. Maybe once we upgrade or move to a new platform (which probably will happen in the next year due to end-of-life and PHP support issues), but we're delaying that as long as possible.

Platform changes are painful for everyone.

Derek Zeanah
April 13, 2013, 06:30 PM
**Edit to add: I also just noticed that you've only got one moderator for the entire for sale section of the forum, even though it has almost as much activity of some of the other subforums that have 2 or 3 moderators - perhaps that's also something that might benefit from some attention? (granted, I'm not sure whether it's always been that way, or if that's a new thing - but you did mention how much time the classifieds section takes for the mods to deal with, yet there's only one mod to deal with it out of 20+ moderators)
That for sale forum moderator was needed, but he was only added a week ago or so. :)

There's been a lot of talk about how to handle the buy/sell/trade area. We're getting it under control, though there's still some dissatisfaction with our solutions.

JShirley
April 14, 2013, 12:11 PM
Rail Driver.

You seemed to have missed one (to me, painfully) obvious point: if THR doesn't bring in enough money, it won't exist. Member donations absolutely will not support a high-volume board. It's nearly impossible to get a significant number of members just to purchase a product that they say they want, and have pledged to buy. I say this with 17 years of observation under my belt.

"More and more ads"? Not unless you mean greater variety. THR was a "labor of love" when it "only" cost as much to maintain each year as buying a decent used car. Now paying its costs would only be that "labor of love" if the owner was independently wealthy.

All of the staff except for Derek (who gives more) gives as much of our time to the forum as a part-time job. Hopefully, that's enough "love" for you. Oddly enough, the hardware, software, and network providers we use don't accept "love" as legal tender. :rolleyes:

Now, as Derek very patiently explained, limits in the Exchange were implemented by staff request. Frankly, THR has too many "members" who do not act as part of our community. We are tired of seeing Derek's good nature abused. We are tired of seeing "members" who have never contributed to a discussion using THR as their personal swap meet. If you'd actually been paying attention, the Exchange was, until recently, Staff moderated, which means that our entire Staff could make changes. Bikerdoc is a dedicated moderator, which means the Exchange is his beat...and the rest of staff can still make changes.


John

Rail Driver
April 14, 2013, 12:47 PM
Rail Driver.

You seemed to have missed one (to me, painfully) obvious point: if THR doesn't bring in enough money, it won't exist. Member donations absolutely will not support a high-volume board. It's nearly impossible to get a significant number of members just to purchase a product that they say they want, and have pledged to buy. I say this with 17 years of observation under my belt.

"More and more ads"? Not unless you mean greater variety. THR was a "labor of love" when it "only" cost as much to maintain each year as buying a decent used car. Now paying its costs would only be that "labor of love" if the owner was independently wealthy.

All of the staff except for Derek (who gives more) gives as much of our time to the forum as a part-time job. Hopefully, that's enough "love" for you. Oddly enough, the hardware, software, and network providers we use don't accept "love" as legal tender. :rolleyes:

Now, as Derek very patiently explained, limits in the Exchange were implemented by staff request. Frankly, THR has too many "members" who do not act as part of our community. We are tired of seeing Derek's good nature abused. We are tired of seeing "members" who have never contributed to a discussion using THR as their personal swap meet. If you'd actually been paying attention, the Exchange was, until recently, Staff moderated, which means that our entire Staff could make changes. Bikerdoc is a dedicated moderator, which means the Exchange is his beat...and the rest of staff can still make changes.


John
I think you're being a little more defensive/aggressive than you need to be. I was asking questions and Derek was kind enough to explain it to me. Now that he has explained it a little, and I've done some research into higher level network solutions that are capable of handling the traffic that THR receives, I realize that those overhead costs are much higher than I initially presumed. Thanks for your responses, but the attitude wasn't necessary. I'm not a child.

I joined this discussion and asked the questions I asked because I thought it might be an opportunity to suggest something or other than might help make the day to day running of the forum a little easier. I wasn't attacking anyone as you seem to think. I wasn't accusing anyone of anything, and I certainly wasn't trying to be insulting. In short - thanks for your response. If I misread your response or got something you didn't intend out of that, I apologize, but you came across to me in a certain way and that caused me to respond in kind.

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