Collegedale TN bans guns


PDA






OldMac
February 26, 2013, 11:00 PM
I just learned that a veteran with a State issued handgun carry permit was arrested in Collegedale TN, weapon confiscated, and tossed in jail after a traffic stop. This shocked me since it is easy to pull off the interstate into the City and get trapped. Can their City code trump a state permit? Is he screwed or should he fight this nonsense? How can you travel if these small town traps pop up in the previously friendly states?

Title 11, chapter 7 states:

"11-702. Weapons and firearms generally. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry in any manner whatever, with the intent to go armed, any razor, dirk, knife, blackjack, brass knucks, pistol, revolver, or any other dangerous weapon or instrument. However, the foregoing prohibition shall not apply to members of the United States Armed Forces carrying such weapons as are prescribed by applicable regulations nor to any officer or policemen engaged in his official duties, in the execution of process, or while searching for or engaged in arresting persons suspected of having committed crimes. Furthermore, the prohibition shall not apply to persons who may have been summoned by such officer or policemen to assist in the discharge of his duties.
(1977 Code, 10-212)"
http://www.collegedaletn.gov/index.aspx?NID=290

If you enjoyed reading about "Collegedale TN bans guns" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
TrickyDick
February 26, 2013, 11:17 PM
depends on the state law of whether a city can create such an ordinance. in Maine, there's a state law prohibiting cities from enacting tougher gun regulation as well as other things. however, i think this should be an easy fight if he's not from that town. but if he is, then it's my wonder to how he obtained a permit with that town as his residence. aside from that, i would fight it all the way.

gc70
February 26, 2013, 11:46 PM
It appears that the city's 1977 code may be valid (1977 Code, 10-212).

39-17-1314 (http://law.justia.com/codes/tennessee/2010/title-39/chapter-17/part-13/39-17-1314/). Local regulation of firearms and ammunition preempted by state regulation Actions against firearms or ammunition manufacturers, trade associations or dealers.

(a) Except as provided in 39-17-1311(d), which allows counties and municipalities to prohibit the possession of handguns while within or on a public park, natural area, historic park, nature trail, campground, forest, greenway, waterway or other similar public place that is owned or operated by a county, a municipality or instrumentality thereof, no city, county, or metropolitan government shall occupy any part of the field of regulation of the transfer, ownership, possession or transportation of firearms, ammunition or components of firearms or combinations thereof; provided, that this section shall be prospective only and shall not affect the validity of any ordinance or resolution lawfully enacted before April 8, 1986.

TNBilly
February 27, 2013, 12:12 PM
he'll have to fight it....... you have to understand Collegedale is the bastion of the Seventh Day folks as well. The law was pretty common and may still be in a lot of places around the country but it is being enforced differently now.

Spammy_H
February 27, 2013, 12:25 PM
My understanding of TN law is that you can't carry in government buildings, schools, and hospitals. Parks were also completely off limits (owned by the gov't) until a couple of years ago, when they made an allowance for local governments to decide whether or not to allow carry inside their parks.

I believe that when that law was changed, the state parks were immediately made "ok" to carry, but obviously this municipality decided to maintain the ban.

Can't allow guns in parks, or that way people would be allowed to defend themselves.

LubeckTech
February 27, 2013, 01:04 PM
he'll have to fight it....... you have to understand Collegedale is the bastion of the Seventh Day folks as well. The law was pretty common and may still be in a lot of places around the country but it is being enforced differently now.
Seventh Day Adventists or people infavor of Blue Laws??

DMK
February 27, 2013, 01:17 PM
How is it even possible for a traveler to understand the myriad of laws in each and every city along his/her travels?

Doesn't the FOPA protect a traveler from this type of thing?

Bovice
February 27, 2013, 01:23 PM
This is a classic example of when somebody should have kept their mouth shut. If it was a regular type traffic stop, there's no reason that a cop should have seen any weapons.

Repeat after me: what they don't know won't hurt them, but it might bury me if they did.

Seriously, shut up guys. LE is hardly your friend.

TenDriver
February 27, 2013, 01:43 PM
That one will have to be fought, but it's going to be expensive. It appears (I'm no lawyer) that the law is legal under state code, but I'm thinking the Federal courts would strike it.

Cosmoline
February 27, 2013, 02:02 PM
It appears to be a mere offense. Like a traffic violation. And yes they CAN throw you in jail for a traffic violation. But it might be worth fighting.

Bovice
February 27, 2013, 02:24 PM
It appears to be a mere offense. Like a traffic violation. And yes they CAN throw you in jail for a traffic violation. But it might be worth fighting.
Maybe if you didn't pay the ticket. Unless it's a criminal offense like DUI, you aren't going to jail from a traffic stop.

DMK
February 27, 2013, 02:27 PM
This is a classic example of when somebody should have kept their mouth shut. If it was a regular type traffic stop, there's no reason that a cop should have seen any weapons.

Repeat after me: what they don't know won't hurt them, but it might bury me if they did.

Seriously, shut up guys. LE is hardly your friend.

While I agree with you completely, in some places you are required by law to inform.

Bovice
February 27, 2013, 02:33 PM
While I agree with you completely, in some places you are required by law to inform.
So I've heard. There's also an amendment to the constitution protecting us from unreasonable search and seizure. Let's say I was required to say if I had a gun. I say I don't. It stops right there. They have no reason to believe otherwise, so a search wouldn't be legal, and when the traffic stop is over, I'm on my way.

shaggy430
February 27, 2013, 02:40 PM
That is very interesting. I drive through Collegedale all of the time and am usually carrying concealed. I have a feeling there is more to this story.......

Zonamo
February 27, 2013, 06:12 PM
10 states,Alaska,Arizona,Louisiana,Michigan,Nebraska,North Carolina,Ohio,Oklahoma,South Carolina and Texas, TMK.

I think you are correct on the others, but it is not required by law in Arizona to inform.

Arizona Gun Laws (http://handgunlaw.us/states/arizona.pdf)

MedWheeler
February 27, 2013, 06:30 PM
Makes me wonder how many of the "shall-notify" states have laws allowing locales to have such strong prohibitions.. Notify, as required by state law, and get hauled off to the hoosegow by the locals for breaking theirs..

Zonamo
February 27, 2013, 07:15 PM
13-3102. Misconduct Involving Weapons; Defenses; Classification; Definitions

1. Carrying a deadly weapon except a pocket knife concealed on his person or within his immediate control in or on a means of transportation:

I know we are on the subject of requirement to inform, but the way you quoted that it might be confusing as to whether having a firearm in the car is "misconduct" in Arizona. Just to be clear, the rest of the paragraph reads:

(a) In the furtherance of a serious offense as defined in section 13-706, a violent crime as defined in section 13-901.03 or any other felony offense; or (b)...

Arizona is an open carry state. It has always been legal in Arizona to have a firearm in your vehicle visible in a holster, or in luggage or the glove box, which was not considered "under immediate control."

To carry concealed you used to need a Concealed Carry permit, but about 2 years ago Arizona enacted Constitutional carry. Under current law, it is not misconduct to carry a concealed weapon even in a vehicle unless it is in furtherance of a serious crime or you are under 21.

As for requirement to inform, you are right that you must respond honestly if an officer asks you. But you are not obligated to volunteer the information. I personally have never been asked.

OldMac
February 27, 2013, 07:51 PM
From what i learned today, the hcp was seen when the drivers license was asked for and produced. The life member nra and ron paul bumper stickers did the talking unfortunately. I guess they thought exercising your 1st, waives your 4th, and cost your 2nd. I have also been through collegedale many times and even lived in the limits for a few years without ever hearing of this code until now. If a business has to post a sign, it seems like a city should post this ban at the city line. I assume this is not the only trap city around.

razorback2003
February 27, 2013, 08:23 PM
I'm in West TN. The permit is good statewide.

About the only places you cannot legally carry in are these:

1. Schools misdemeanor or felony
2. Courtroom during court felony
3. Properties both public and private with Proper signage misdemeanor 500 dollar fine

4. Some local parks high level misdemeanor


Something has to be more to this story for this guy to get arrested in a traffic stop when he has a permit.

philoe
February 27, 2013, 08:57 PM
I thought Big Whiskey was somewhere out west. :0 Embarrased to see this happened in my home state (based on being taken in for simply possessing with permit).

Waiting for more info before I comment further.

OldMac
February 27, 2013, 10:16 PM
I know THR is all about obeying the law and their 1977 law may be valid. However, you can't obey the law if you dont know the laws in every 2 bit village. I sincerely hope he beats this rap and gets these old hidden laws removed to protect all of us. The state should at least provide a list of places that your permit is not valid. We all know about schools, courts, post offices, etc. but nobody mentioned towns.

baz
February 28, 2013, 12:04 AM
I was thinking about a vacation in TN sometime this year. Maybe I should contact the state's department of tourism (all states have something along the lines) and ask them specifically which cities I should avoid visiting if I don't want to be arrested.

Seriously, I am from next door (Arkansas) and travel through TN frequently carrying on the basis of my AR CHL being valid via reciprocity. But if there are cities where even TN's own permit is not valid, that needs to publicized somehow.

TNBilly
February 28, 2013, 12:18 AM
Baz.... go ahead and try if you like but I think you'll find all they know squat about is Dollywood, Seiverville, and the more common tourist areas. I'd be dead surprised if you'd find one of them that has a clue on gun laws.

Bovice
February 28, 2013, 05:03 AM
Ok, so if the crap hit the fan when the LEO saw his concealed weapons permit. If that's what set this all off, we learn a new lesson.

DON'T KEEP YOUR PERMIT IN PLAIN SIGHT! When you open your wallet, what do you see? If you see your permit, move it someplace it can't be seen, even if you remove your driver's license.

Anybody on state or federal payroll should be suspect. Don't make it so easy for them. Don't give them a thing.

baz
February 28, 2013, 08:27 AM
Baz.... go ahead and try if you like but I think you'll find all they know squat about is Dollywood, Seiverville, and the more common tourist areas. I'd be dead surprised if you'd find one of them that has a clue on gun laws.I was thinking, maybe, of making a more "political" point. But more practically, I guess, is there anyone in TN who would know? The State Police, perhaps? Does TN have any gun groups that might know? I'm not going to Dollywood, or any of the other tourist meccas. We're more into visiting historical sites and museums.

It isn't difficult to scratch Collegedale off the list of places to go see. We were not planning to go that far east. I think I will google for gun groups in TN and see what I can find out. But I'm glad this thread gave us a heads up on this as a potential problem in TN.

Bubba613
February 28, 2013, 09:46 AM
I call B.S. on the whole thing. TN has a state pre-emption. We have a valid carry permit program. No municipality can outlaw guns. I've never been to Collegedale but I would bet they are as gun friendly as any other place outside of Shelby County.
There is more to the story than we are being told. That is obvious. And that's assuming there is actually a story there.

fdashes
February 28, 2013, 10:24 AM
I have to go along with the "more to the story" crowd. As with so many cases like this one that usually turns out to be the case. I will keep an eye on the thread and hopefully will find out "the rest of the story."

razorback2003
February 28, 2013, 11:45 AM
A permit in TN is a defense to prosecution for the charge of 'intent to go armed' along with other defenses for hunters, judges, sport shooters, people at their home or business.

Technically, you could be arrested even with a permit for 'intent to go armed' or even having a gun at your business, but the minute you go to court the charge would be tossed.

There has to be more to this story than the guy having a permit and a gun.

OldMac
February 28, 2013, 01:12 PM
Bubba, see post #3 and the link to their 1977 law in post 1. The state preemption seems to start in 1986 and clearly states that it is not retroactive. That is the problem. I also keep my hcp next to my dl but i think their databases could be connected and pop up whether they see the card or not.

mnhntr
February 28, 2013, 01:22 PM
post 33 sums it up. Something is rotten in this story.

OldMac
February 28, 2013, 03:26 PM
:banghead: thank goodness that finally settles it. Bubba calls bs so now their 1977 ban is no longer valid. Bubba did what the states 1986 law did not do.

Sincere thanks to everyone else for their input. We should be vigilant and call bs on any other hidden gun bans in what ever form they exist.

dbp
February 28, 2013, 03:38 PM
Ok, so if the crap hit the fan when the LEO saw his concealed weapons permit. If that's what set this all off, we learn a new lesson.

DON'T KEEP YOUR PERMIT IN PLAIN SIGHT! When you open your wallet, what do you see? If you see your permit, move it someplace it can't be seen, even if you remove your driver's license.

Anybody on state or federal payroll should be suspect. Don't make it so easy for them. Don't give them a thing.
That won't work for us here in SC. We are required by law to present our CWP when we present our DL when stopped. Failure to do so and then being found to be carrying is big time trouble! I am not aware of any towns in SC that have any such law as has been discussed here though, so I don't worry much about presenting when stopped.

Frank Ettin
February 28, 2013, 03:49 PM
Closed at OP's request.

Frank Ettin
March 3, 2013, 12:56 AM
Thread opened for additional information.

r1derbike
March 3, 2013, 02:06 AM
10 states,Alaska,Arizona,Louisiana,Michigan,Nebraska,North Carolina,Ohio,Oklahoma,South Carolina and Texas, TMK.



You have never opened your mouth and been caught.Arkansas is another must inform state.

zxcvbob
March 3, 2013, 03:00 AM
Makes me wonder how many of the "shall-notify" states have laws allowing locales to have such strong prohibitions.. Notify, as required by state law, and get hauled off to the hoosegow by the locals for breaking theirs..

If you're armed illegally, there is no duty to inform because it would be self-incrimination. The problem is when you *think* you are legal because you don't know about the local ordinance in Big Whiskey.

Evergreen
March 3, 2013, 03:13 AM
I keep being disappointed about absurd gun laws in the South.. Screw it.. I won't live in a state where I Can become a criminal and stripped of my freedom, spending the rest of my life sharing a cell with murderers/rapists, just because I drove through the wrong town.

When the city of Seattle decided to try to push its own gun law, the WA government said cut it out or risk punishments for enacting illegal laws. The city backed off and found itself powerless.

All I know is some of the Old Confederate and "most" of the Old Yankee states seem to have a few unfortunate things in common. Over-policing and enacting bizarre laws that focus on incriminating the law-abiding?

-v-
March 3, 2013, 04:18 AM
Must be more to this story. Some things are just not adding up.

Also, in Tennessee your permit is linked to your driver's license - hell your permit number and driver's license number is the same number. Its really more of an extra endorsement more then anything.

Thus, our guy did not even need to show or flash his permit to the LEO. As soon as the cop ran his driver's license, it popped up on the display that this driver's license has a concealed carry permit associated with it, and that probably gave the LEO all the "probable cause" he needed to search his car.

Bubba613
March 3, 2013, 05:53 AM
Having a permit is not illegal. Thus there is no "probable cause" to search anything.
No, there is more going on here.

Risky
March 3, 2013, 06:33 AM
Having a permit is not illegal. Thus there is no "probable cause" to search anything.
No, there is more going on here.
Agreed. However, if the cop ran the DL, saw the permit, and walked back to the driver saying, "I see you have a CWP. Are you armed right now? Where is it?" how would the best response be under the Collegedale circumstance? Just respond with "I don't believe I have to answer that question.", or even "I don't consent to any searches or seizures."??

OldMac
March 3, 2013, 06:42 AM
Yes bubba, there always is more to the story but the intent of the op was to inquire if more of these hidden and possibly unenforced laws exist legally where they could tack on a charge if you happen to run accross the wrong situation. Nothing is being taught in ccw classes about possible pre1986 laws that are not preempted. I would like a national reciprocity but short of that i would at least like to know i am not at the enforcement discretion of whatever mayor just got elected. If it helps keep on track, lets say the alleged victim, if any, broke every other law in the book. The question is, can this pre1986 law be used against you or me? I know that I will not be breaking those other laws and may never be in Collegedale again, so my only concern is if I might unsuspectactly break one of these laws in tn just when they decide to enforce. How about a map of the towns with a pre1986 law. Maybe we could move this to the activism forum and get the pre 1986 exemption removed. Please forget about the rape victim having a short skirt and makeup. It doesnt matter.

Bubba613
March 3, 2013, 07:23 AM
The facts in this case are crucial to determing what happened. Currently the bs line is that Collegedale somehow trumps state law and is a bastion of gun grabbing within solidly GOP Hamilton County. A simpler explanation is that the driver was guilty of some actual infraction, like being drunk in possession and this is why the gun was taken. But in the absence of actual evidence here it is difficult to tell.

dbp
March 3, 2013, 11:01 PM
I keep being disappointed about absurd gun laws in the South.. Screw it.. I won't live in a state where I Can become a criminal and stripped of my freedom, spending the rest of my life sharing a cell with murderers/rapists, just because I drove through the wrong town.

In SC I do have to inform LEO of my carrying if asked for ID, but at least I don't have to worry about a local law being a problem as I pass through. See below:

LOCAL REGULATIONS

SECTION 23-31-510. Prohibition against regulation of certain matters.

No governing body of any county, municipality, or other political subdivision in this State may enact or promulgate any regulation or ordinance which regulates or attempts to regulate the transfer, ownership, possession, carrying, or transportation of firearms, ammunition, components of firearms, or any combination of these things.

HorseSoldier
March 3, 2013, 11:32 PM
Makes me wonder how many of the "shall-notify" states have laws allowing locales to have such strong prohibitions.. Notify, as required by state law, and get hauled off to the hoosegow by the locals for breaking theirs..

Can't speak for places besides Alaska, but we don't have any trip you up local laws, just the state law duty to inform.

jheath0520
March 4, 2013, 12:58 AM
The person that took the time to write the original post, reporting as fact that people are being arrested in Collegedale for otherwise legally carrying their firearms, is either severely delusional or horribly misinformed. Although that particular verbage does remain in the municipal code, our codes are continually being readdressed and clearly our commissioners (a conservative majority for many years) have not yet been made aware of this particular issue. These commissioners were the same ones that voted to allow the carrying of weapons in our public parks a few years ago, while other municipalities in our area were voting against it.

Rest assured however that no one, and I mean ABSOLUTELY no one has been arrested or even cited for legally carrying a firearm. Notice that I said "cited"!! We are talking about a CITY ORDINANCE here, just like the other Tennessee jurisdiction codes that were also provided in this thread. A city ordinance can never be more than a Class C Misdemeanor because it is a Fine Only Offense and therefore not an arrestable one. Not only the false reports of arrests being made, but also stating that a city ordinance was allowed to trump a state law is irresponsible and erroneous reporting and just plain rubbish!

Let me also reassure the rest of you that may live nearby, or may be considering a visit to the area, you will not be arrested if you are carrying your weapon in accordance with state law. We have many citizens that carry unimpeded and others that even carry open unharassed.

Our police department, although small, is one of the most respected within the area's legal community. Our officers are very professional and are diligent supporters of our Constitution and it's Bill of Rights! Several officers are even Oath Keepers.

If you are abiding by The Constitution and Tennessee state law, you have nothing to worry about in the city limits of Collegedale!

jheath0520
March 4, 2013, 01:31 AM
LOL!! Yes, I do work there and often run into these "sideways" stories where half truths turn the whole story false. I tend to take these bogus accounts seriously though because we not only care a lot about our city and her people, but also the misconceptions that false information can breed.

I was told of this post and an identical one on another site by a concerned citizen and started searching after reassuring the citizen that all was not as it may appear. Hence my "fine opening for a first post".

jheath0520
March 4, 2013, 02:04 AM
I work Criminal and Internal Investigations for the Collegedale Police Department. I won't share more than that because I only intended my first post, but if the OP wishes to share date and time specifics about the incident I would be glad to look it up when I get to the office tomorrow and reply with the "rest of the story".

Frank Ettin
March 4, 2013, 02:22 AM
jheath0520,

Thank you for your efforts to clear this up. But Johnny Dollar is correct about language like "severely delusional or horribly misinformed" not being appropriate here. Surely you could convey your thoughts in a more temperate fashion.

jheath0520
March 4, 2013, 02:52 AM
My intention was never to offend, but to only correct an offense. I pride myself on being able to do just that without resorting to the mindless and curse-laden diatribes you often see in too many Internet forums. Perhaps my good intentions were in vain, but I did not want to see what appears to be a lie regarding our stance on any citizen's legal right to bear arms to stand unchallenged. Maybe it's the old Marine in me, but I wanted to make sure our voice was heard.

The truth of the matter is that more than likely the weapon, or the possession of it, had absolutely nothing to do with the stop or the arrest; and this "veteran" had been arrested for a completely unrelated offense. If the weapon had indeed been confiscated from a legally authorized permit holder it would have been only because it had been used in the commission of an offense, or it had been removed from the vehicle for storage in the armory if the vehicle had been towed to impound.

Frank Ettin
March 4, 2013, 02:59 AM
My intention was never to offend, but to only correct an offense....We appreciate that. And we also understand being passionate about a point or issue. But we also try to maintain a particularly high standard of civility.

OldMac
March 4, 2013, 06:34 AM
jheath0520,
Thank you for joining since you may be able to clear this up. No offense taken since i dont know if i am one or both of your diagnosis. My original intent for posting, like yours, could have been framed better but it will no longer let me edit. My concern is less about the particular incident, if any, but rather the possibility that this law, and laws like it in other jurisdictions, could be used against me if my speedometer isnt working one day. You confirmed that the law does exist (-1), others pointed out the pre1986 exemption in state law (-1), you confirmed your depts strong 2a leanings under your current administration (+1), bubba called bs twice (+2), But, the question is....CAN the Law be enforced in Collegedale or other towns? If it can, we should all be concerned because policies and people change. Thank you for your inside help on this issue if you are willing. I dont want confirmation of the incident but only the assurance that my hcp trumps mayberry's code when i come to feed my little debbie addiction.

jheath0520
March 4, 2013, 12:09 PM
As I previously stated, you can rest assured that if you are abiding by The Constitution and Tennessee state law, you have nothing to worry about in the city limits of Collegedale!

Here are 2 thoughts from 2 attorneys that commented in the other forum that had also raised ths question:

1. "Yeah it's a pretty cut and dry law, any ordinances before 86 are still valid. But was the point of this thread that there are pre-86 ordinances that ban carry in entire cities? I believe the "intent to go armed" language would except carry permit holders, basically making those ordinances no different than the state statute on unlawful possession or carrying."

2. "In a nutshell, state law (your HCP), is going to over-ride local laws (ie pre-86 statutes or ordinances), anywhere except places operating or owned exclusively by the local government such as a park etc.."

I hope this helps!

mbogo
March 4, 2013, 12:58 PM
OldMac,

Do you have any further information on the arrest of the veteran with CHL? What charges, if any, have been filed?

mbogo

krupparms
March 5, 2013, 06:32 AM
Having lived in Collegedale Tennessee before moving to Oregon, I would have to say there is more to this story! As a former L.E.O.,I knew several Collegedale P.O.s & it is indeed a small department. This is a small mostly pro-gun Community. I have ridden thru town on a M.C.& a rifle in my hand!
No one stopped me! In '86' I was shooting within the CITY limits &had the chief stop &ask what I was shooting, nothing else was said! I have friends there that shoot &no one has taken them to jail or cited them! As to comments, I have been called all kind of things on this forum! Seems we all make mistakes no one is perfict! Live and let live! Let's get the whole story first!

If you enjoyed reading about "Collegedale TN bans guns" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!