Low recoil 9mm


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Madpap
February 27, 2013, 11:14 PM
My wife wants to start shooting with me so I bought her a Sig P239 in 9mm. She's a little recoil sensitive so I don't want her to develop a flinch right off the bat. Does anyone have a low power load using 124gr fmj's?

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Mccarty
February 27, 2013, 11:17 PM
Use a starting charge or just under and it should not be bad at all.
If you do use a reduced charge check to make sure it cycles action and does not leave one in the bore - thatcould make her very recoil sensitive.

rfwobbly
February 27, 2013, 11:17 PM
Your manual is full of them. They're called the "starting load". If your gun is sprung for defensive loads, then you may want to run those with a reduced spring set from Wolff Spring.

jmorris
February 27, 2013, 11:18 PM
Make them so weak you have to install a weaker coil spring to cycle the action.

Walkalong
February 27, 2013, 11:21 PM
3.9 Grs N320 and a 124/5 Gr bullet. Light as a feather from a full size 1911.

Any starting load with a fast powder will work. Bullseye, N310, WST, Clays, etc.

Madpap
February 27, 2013, 11:49 PM
Thanks Walkalong, that's what I was looking for. I know that the manuals are full of starting loads. That's not what I was asking. I was asking for loads that people have used. Supplies are to hard to come by to try every starting load in the book.

chris in va
February 28, 2013, 03:34 AM
You're not understanding...find a starting load in a manual with whatever powder and bullet you happen to find.

ArchAngelCD
February 28, 2013, 03:39 AM
If you can't find VV powders the light 9mm load I like is 4.4gr W231/HP-38 under a 124gr FMJ bullet. It's clean and accurate in every pistol I shoot...

Clark
February 28, 2013, 04:26 AM
Recoil pain is caused when too much pressure pushes on a nerve.

To reduce the pressure on that nerve and keep it lower than the threshold of pain, we can:
1) increase the mass of the gun
2) decrease the forward momentum of the bullet and gas
3) spread the impulse over time
4) spread the impulse over area

In addition, there is the perceived recoil from noise, so make the gun less noisy.
To do this good enough, I would start with a heavy pistol with a broad grip, like the Beretta 92.
Then work up a 9mm load that makes the brass land 5 feet away. When the brass goes more that 5 feet, the recoil is not just coupled to the hand through the recoil spring, but also through the slide hammering the stop on the frame. That hurts.
Use a fast powder, that will make less noise for the same forward momentum needed to drive the slide back fast enough to cycle.
Use a heavier bullet, that will take less powder to cycle the action.
Put ear plugs AND ear muffs on her.

Here is and example of what NOT to do:
Kel-Tec PF9
90 gr Gold Dot
Lots of Blue Dot powder so the cases land 20 feet away.
No hearing protection.

Here is an example of what to do:
Beretta 92
147 gr
Tiny charge of Red Dot or Bullseye so brass lands 5 feet away
ear plugs and ear muffs.

kingmt
February 28, 2013, 08:03 AM
Heaver bullets with faster powder.

J_McLeod
February 28, 2013, 08:40 AM
My favorite light load is a MBC 147gr with HP-38/231 or HS-6. It's even light with the HS-6.

Madpap
February 28, 2013, 08:43 AM
Thanks for the replies. I have a couple to try. I'll let you know which works.

ATLDave
February 28, 2013, 10:45 AM
I've had good luck with just over 4 grains of ZIP pushing a 124 grain bullet. Out of a steel or polymer-framed gun, it is super soft shooting.

ldlfh7
February 28, 2013, 11:11 AM
4 gr bullseye with 124 gr missouri bullet small ball. Very accurate and low recoil out of my sw9ve.

45lcshooter
February 28, 2013, 02:07 PM
Start small, start her on a 22revolver to get her trained not to flinch.

Train small, don't take a novice shooter out and hand them your 500S&W and tap on the back, don't flinch.

Anyone wanting to learn to shoot or even experienced shooters train at the bottom to get the feel for each gun, then work your way up from there.

If she is recoil sensitive, go with a 380 or 32. If those are out of the option, get her a tazer.

BBDartCA
March 2, 2013, 09:07 PM
look up loads with aa#7 and 147g FMJs, really keeps the 9mm from being "snappy" very manageable recoil, and the load translates well for training to use premium 147g HP PD rounds. I think something with the realitvely slow #7 powder helps control the snappiness as compared to wonderful PowerPistol or the dreaded TiteGroup.

Trent
March 2, 2013, 09:20 PM
Just don't load up TOO many starting loads without testing.

You ever shoot through 200x 147gr 9mm having to rack-tap-bang every single round because the slide doesn't get enough momentum to eject the round?

Trust me. Work up 5-10 of those. If they don't eject clean, bump it up .2 gr and try again.

:)

Madpap
March 3, 2013, 02:01 AM
No can't say I have. I don't know why anyone would load that many before trying them out. She's shooting 4.1grs of 231 right now and likes them. Tomorrow I'll try 3.9grs of N320 and see how that goes.

Madpap
March 3, 2013, 02:04 AM
Start small, start her on a 22revolver to get her trained not to flinch.

Train small, don't take a novice shooter out and hand them your 500S&W and tap on the back, don't flinch.

Anyone wanting to learn to shoot or even experienced shooters train at the bottom to get the feel for each gun, then work your way up from there.

If she is recoil sensitive, go with a 380 or 32. If those are out of the option, get her a tazer.

Why would anyone take a new shooter out and give them a large gun like that?

greyling22
March 3, 2013, 02:24 AM
rule of thumb: with any caliber in any handgun I generally start with the starting load of whatever powder I have handy and work down until the gun stops cycling or accuracy goes to pot. I am recoil shy myself. my 45's dropped about 18" from the gun.



Madpap, they do it to post on youtube and get a laugh. It's all about their entertainment, not about helping the shooter.

Walkalong
March 3, 2013, 09:07 AM
Tomorrow I'll try 3.9grs of N320 and see how that goes.In my Colt the brass just lands a couple of feet away in a nice pile.

I did have to replace the extractor and I also installed an over sized EGW FPS and gave it a small radius. The stop helps slow unlocking a hair, which helps the burn, and it keeps the extractor from clocking. The slide velocity is such that a poor extractor that was also clocking did not extract cases well. Now it just boringly piles them just to the right of my feet.

gonefishin1
March 3, 2013, 10:41 AM
The heavier the bullet the more recoil correct? So wouldn't you want a light bullet for less recoil?

Trent
March 3, 2013, 11:30 AM
Depends. The equations for recoil (momentum) differ from the equations for kinetic energy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_recoil

bds
March 3, 2013, 11:39 AM
The heavier the bullet the more recoil correct? So wouldn't you want a light bullet for less recoil?
Depends.
+1. Depends on powder charges used for the particular bullet weights.


But in general:

Heavier 124 gr FMJ with 4.4 gr W231/HP-38 will recoil "softer" than lighter 115 gr FMJ with 4.8 gr W231/HP-38.

Heavier 147 gr lead TC bullet with 3.5 gr W231/HP-38 will recoil "softer" than lighter 125 gr lead RN bullet with 4.0 gr W231/HP-38.

Trent
March 3, 2013, 11:58 AM
Pistol powder is FAST. It's not at all like rifle.

We know from Revolver shooting that pistol powder will typically fully "burn" before the bullet passes through the forcing cone. With autoloaders, that fast powder is burnt before that bullet is a half inch from the casing. (The PRESSURE keeps acting on the projectile longer on a longer barrel; but the powder is DONE).

The duration of the imparted momentum varies slightly by powder, but it don't take long. The momentum (work) is largely done in a very brief period of time, so powder has less effect on recoil than with rifles (you can FEEL the difference in powder burn rates on rifles, even on different powders that give approx the same pressure peak, if you shoot magnums; the curve happens over a longer duration).

Pistols, though, tend to give everything they're going to give to you all at once in a sharp slap.

So pushing out a lighter bullet with a heavier powder charge at higher velocity imparts more "work" to your hand, than a lower powder charge pushing out a heavier bullet. Velocity takes more work to build up (10% more powder might give 3-5% more velocity, but recoil is going to be much harder).

I've been reading up about this because I have a couple of newer revolvers that I found I'm somewhat recoil sensitive to (357 and 44 mag, to be precise....)

I plan on honing in on a load I can comfortably fire but imparts the maximum energy I can stand, for self defense loads in the 357. The 44 mag, I need to find something I can shoot all day, without breaking myself, for practice, and save the filling-rattling loads for hunting.

Same basic premise.

BTW, I have my USPSA 9mm loads dialed in at a power factor of 126.5, just comfortably enough above the minimum power factor threshhold to pass chrono on a cold day, while giving me the best split times. :)

bds
March 3, 2013, 12:04 PM
I need to find something I can shoot all day, without breaking myself, for practice
My range session averages 300-500+. I have my loads dialed in so I can hold a pen on Monday morning at work without any issues. Even with "snappy" 40S&W, I can produce low recoil loads with W231/HP-38 to allow me to work comfortably with a pen without sore hand on Monday. :D

The soft recoiling W231/HP-38/Promo loads are especially popular with older shooters with arthritis and female shooters. The 180 gr TCFP 40S&W load with 4.0 gr W231/HP-38 and 200 gr SWC 45ACP load with 4.0 gr Promo allow female shooters to enjoy shooting without heavy recoil issues.

greyling22
March 3, 2013, 01:50 PM
Trent, I'm not sure I agree with you about how fast pistol powder it. If it all burned up within the first inch or so, why do you still get muzzle flash at night? why would you get more muzzle velocity out of a longer barrel than a shorter one? (ex: 38spl out of a rifle barrel vs a pistol)

Madpap
March 3, 2013, 04:00 PM
Tried N320 at 3.9 and 4.1. The 4.1 I think is what we are going with.

Walkalong
March 3, 2013, 04:22 PM
Yep, 3.9 to 4.1 will do the trick in most guns. All depends on the actual bullet, and OAL makes a big difference. The 2011 Vihtavuori PDF shows 4.0 to 4.3 as max with different 124/5 Gr bullets.

Trent
March 3, 2013, 04:38 PM
Trent, I'm not sure I agree with you about how fast pistol powder it. If it all burned up within the first inch or so, why do you still get muzzle flash at night? why would you get more muzzle velocity out of a longer barrel than a shorter one? (ex: 38spl out of a rifle barrel vs a pistol)

You get muzzle flash on handguns because the powder is still under incredible pressures, it's a very hot, very high pressure gas. Bullseye, Unique, etc will be fully burnt by the time the bullet is out of a 1.5" barrel.

A charge of Unique in 38 special shot out of a 3" barrel is going to have a heck of a lot more flash than a rifle, because the gas is still under tremendous pressure at the time it exits the muzzle, compared to a 16" rifle. The gas pressure on a rifle has dropped MASSIVELY by the time that bullet exits the muzzle. Now, switch to a slower burning powder like Blue Dot, and you'll see something entirely different; traces (streaks) of unburnt powder out of the 3" barrel, and a bigger flash out of the 16" barrel.

Slower burning pistol powders on shorter barreled guns will show streaks (sometimes visible in daylight) which is powder still burning. Blue Dot and 3N38, for instance, will show nifty little "traces" when shot from 3" or shorter barrels - THAT is powder that's still burning. A little more impressive at night.

On larger magnum rifles, particularly 50 BMG, this effect is even more pronounced and the streaks burn longer. (I can see them very clearly in daylight when shooting my DShK, just as you see in the photo below, taken over in Syria):

http://i.imgur.com/C8k5QJIl.jpg

Hondo 60
March 3, 2013, 07:43 PM
Seems this thread has devolved some.
To get back to the OP's question ...

My go-to load is 4.1 gr of Tite Group under a 124 gr Berry's.
(Berry's recommends low to mid jacketed data - 4.1 is min according to Hodgdon)

Very soft shooting in a full-size 9mm, but still cycles the gun.
A bit energetic in a Kel-tec PF9 (small-very light weight)

sbrader
March 3, 2013, 10:11 PM
I put 4.3gr of 231 under a PD 124gr FMJ. It is very accurate in both my XD9sc and my SR9 and my wife can shoot them all day with no complaints. Your results may vary. Always independently verify your loads.

Scott

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