Shooting Reloads For Self Defense.


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Clippers
February 28, 2013, 09:22 PM
Why is that when I mention to people that I have a Conceal Carry permit and I reload, they always tell me " You better be careful shooting reloads for self defense, because you could get sued, its a legal issue". I think that sounds ridiculous. But what do I know. Any idea if there is any truth to their statement's, or is just more BS?

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cfullgraf
February 28, 2013, 09:26 PM
There are lots of differing opinions on the subject.

In my opinion, if you run into an overzealous prosecutor, you are screwed either way.

Crashbox
February 28, 2013, 09:27 PM
I do know Massad Ayoob strongly recommends against the use of reloads for self-defense in the Gun Digest book "Concealed Carry (I forget the rest of the title)" and his arguments do hold considerable water IMO.

That said, it's still your choice whether or not you want to.

Fire_Moose
February 28, 2013, 09:36 PM
Tell ya what. I trust my reloads a hell of a lot more then factory.stuff.
I carry 50/50 mix

Sent from my CZ85 Combat

ljnowell
February 28, 2013, 09:38 PM
No one has ever been prosecuted and had it used against them that anyone can document. Mas Ayoob points out Daniel Bias. In his case because they were handloads the GSR tests were invalid. He was convicted, but only because he shot and killed his wife.

wv109323
February 28, 2013, 10:01 PM
As noted there are no court cases where a handloaded SD round made a difference in a criminal case. Mostly BS
There have been a couple of cases where the prosecutor swayed a jury that the defendant used hollow point ammo and "hollow points" were mean evil rounds meant only to kill.
The people that say handloaded ammo is a no-no in SD have read M.A. book and believed it.

joneb
February 28, 2013, 11:20 PM
I like to practice with what I carry mostly, as I cannot afford to practice with premium SD ammo I mostly carry my reloads.
I take extra care when reloading, I have had misfires from lack of primer compound so I inspect primers before priming.
Each to their own I guess.

chris in va
February 28, 2013, 11:25 PM
Wish I could find the link, but someone posted a couple cases where homemade SD ammo was used and brought up in court. I'm sure someone will be along to post the links.

That being said I just carry handload XTP's in my 45 and call it good.

Clippers
February 28, 2013, 11:35 PM
Aren't most factory self defense rounds hollow points? What could a lawyer possibly argue about bullet type or powder used? I assume this is one of those deals where we hear that a criminal has more rights than the victim.

foxs
February 28, 2013, 11:53 PM
Next thing they will tell you is you planned the whole thing when you went to the store to buy ammo.

joneb
February 28, 2013, 11:54 PM
If you need to shoot somebody it is either a good or bad shoot the ammo used will likely be irrelevant.

abijohn
March 1, 2013, 12:04 AM
When we took our concealed carry class the instructor told us to buy and only carry "personal defense" loads from a major manufacturer. He said the big companies have a bigger legal dept. than most of us do. Let them explain the how/why of the load. The legal team on the other side will paint you as an extreme wacko killer if you carry hand loads that you rolled yourself. Makes sense to me. You can bet at the civil proceeding the bad guy will be made to look like an alter boy.

Mike Sr.
March 1, 2013, 12:09 AM
Let's see: a factory box of ammo 20-50 bucks vs thousands in legal fee's because I want to use my reloads in my CC weapon..................................................................make's perfect sense to me!

ljnowell
March 1, 2013, 12:09 AM
When we took our concealed carry class the instructor told us to buy and only carry "personal defense" loads from a major manufacturer. He said the big companies have a bigger legal dept. than most of us do. Let them explain the how/why of the load. The legal team on the other side will paint you as an extreme wacko killer if you carry hand loads that you rolled yourself. Makes sense to me. You can bet at the civil proceeding the bad guy will be made to look like an alter boy.

It may make sense, but its not true. Even in the daniel bias case it wasnt made out that he was wacko crazy because of handloads. The fact is the reloaded ammo line has been parroted by instructors and the like for years, but there is no justification for it.

holdencm9
March 1, 2013, 12:12 AM
It was discussed a fair amount here, in a thread I started.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=693885&highlight=getting+sued

IMO, it isn't even worth worrying about. No one could really point to any actual cases of it coming into play in a legitimate way. Many will say "why risk it?!?" or "you don't want to be the first!"

PlaneJain
March 1, 2013, 12:19 AM
Mcdonalds paid out $2.86 million to Stella Liebeck for spilling hot coffee on her lap. Any thing is possible in a lawsuit.

Arp32
March 1, 2013, 12:21 AM
I, too, think the supposed risks are overblown. Although I did agree with some advice I was given when I first got my CCW. The instructor suggested we find out what the local PD issued their officers and use that. If it ever came into question, he thought it was a reasonable argument to say you chose whatever ammo the local police thought was prudent.

Even so, I think that if this were something to worry over, we'd have plenty of relevant and non-hypothetical examples to argue about.

ljnowell
March 1, 2013, 12:43 AM
Any thing is possible in a lawsuit.

We arent talking about a civil lawsuit, we are talking about criminal convictions. Anything could happen your way to work tomorrow, but that doesnt mean it will.

Even so, I think that if this were something to worry over, we'd have plenty of relevant and non-hypothetical examples to argue about.

^^^Exactly!

gamestalker
March 1, 2013, 01:23 AM
I asked an expert that same question some time back and his reply was there is no case history of anyone having lost a civil action for such. I've been carrying my hand loads for SD for a very long time, and I don't plan to changing that.

GS

jehicks87
March 1, 2013, 06:53 AM
Mcdonalds paid out $2.86 million to Stella Liebeck for spilling hot coffee on her lap. Any thing is possible in a lawsuit.

You mean the 79 year old woman who had third degree burns all over her privates due to a McDonald's restaurant which had it's coffee somewhere on the order of 30* hotter their own (at the time) upper allowable limit, despite repeatedly being informed of the scalding temperatures by other customers in the months prior to said incident? 700 other burns had taken place before hers, incidentally.

Btw, her settlement was knocked down due to "tort reform" and she was out-of-pocket for her own medical bills. Yes, she was awarded millions but only paid a couple hundred thousand.

Sorry. Sore subject. To the OP, I've never heard of it actually being a problem. I've always heard that you shouldn't, but no one can say why. If you're carrying FMJ or Cast bullet loads, I'd think there would be no way they could point a finger at you being a "bloodthirsty gun-nut". As far as hollowpoints go, I prefer factory loads, so I never really cared.

springer99
March 1, 2013, 08:38 AM
Right. You sure don't want to be caught using reloads in your gun when involved in a self-defense situation. Also, make sure you don't install ANY aftermarket parts(like different trigger, hammer, amb. safety, better sights or grips), on your gun, that might allow an attorney to convince the jury that you've made the weapon more dangerous.:neener:

dragon813gt
March 1, 2013, 08:47 AM
Judged by 12 or Carried by 6?
I know it's cliché but it's exactly how I feel. There is a lengthy thread on another forum about carrying your own cast bullets over commercial jacketed. The hypotheticals get ramped up exponentially with that change. I carry my own reloads with Hornady XTP bullets. If I live to see a court case I will deal with it. If I die due to an ammo malfunction it will be my own fault and I'm willing to accept that responsibility. I've had to many malfunctions w/ factory ammo to trust my life to it.


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7075-T7
March 1, 2013, 08:51 AM
For my 9mm and .40S&W (since I don't reload for them anyway) I carry factory SD loads, more specifically the winchester ranger white box line, cheap enough to practice with and uses the same bullets as the $1+ a round stuff, just not as pretty and with brass cases.

The one caliber that I would consider using my own reloads would be .44 magnum with my Alaskan. I don't need a full-house load for SD, so a "light magnum" loaded 240gr XTP would be preferable. I figure you could always argue that you loaded down to make them less dangerous to the non-intended target.

beatledog7
March 1, 2013, 09:11 AM
I'm not a lawyer and I've never had to defend myself in an SD shoot. But I'll say this:

It's legal to carry a firearm, legal to handload ammo, and legal to shoot that ammo (except for some kinds in some states). If I have to use such rounds to defend myself, what ammo I used should have no bearing, just as the sort of fuel I have in my car has no bearing on whether I did or didn't cause a crash.

EMC45
March 1, 2013, 09:13 AM
This again?......

Kleanbore
March 1, 2013, 09:27 AM
This has been covered numerous times before, and it's all here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=618021).

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