Stuck another rifle case! yaaaaay!


PDA






1KPerDay
March 1, 2013, 10:47 AM
My bad luck with rifle reloading continues... LOL
A couple of years ago when I started reloading, I stuck the first case I ever tried to resize, a .30-06. Everyone blamed it on the Hornady One Shot I was using. I ordered the RCBS stuck case remover and some imperial sizing wax, and got it sorted out shortly. I have had no issues since, using imperial.

However,
Yesterday I sized my first .223 case, using imperial, and STUCK it.:fire::banghead:

Just managed to coax it out with the RCBS stuck case remover, but managed to bend the decapping/expander pin in the process (I removed the lock screws and banged on it first as per the Lee die instructions, apparently to drive the case out). Don't try it with RCBS :uhoh: and I doubt that method would even work with the Lee.

Anywho... any advice on how to avoid stuck cases going forward? Should I just accept that the reloading gods don't wish me to load rifle? I'm okay with handgun stuff, and enjoy it. But my attempts with bottleneck rifle reloading have been less than enjoyable so far. :rolleyes:

I was using the Lyman x26 shell plate, RCBS full length sizing die (dated 77) and (what I thought to be) an appropriate amount of Imperial Sizing Wax.

Maybe I just need to sacrifice the first one to the reloading gods for each caliber I try. :D

If you enjoyed reading about "Stuck another rifle case! yaaaaay!" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
choppinlow
March 1, 2013, 11:03 AM
223 can be pain. Especially for the first few rounds make sure you have plenty lube evenly over the whole case and in the neck. For 223, I make sure Every cartridge is well lubed including the neck to help avoid this common problem. Proper lube and you should not have this issue.....it is just that 223 is one you have to be more diligent about lube than other rounds.

Certaindeaf
March 1, 2013, 11:25 AM
Yea, it's that first one that'll get ya unless you lube it slightly heavier and or very lightly pre-charge the die itself with like a Q-Tip.

Innovative
March 1, 2013, 11:28 AM
1KPerDay ......

Imperial Sizing Die Wax is the most effective high pressure lubricant (suitable for resizing) that I've ever tested. I developed a die for belted magnum calibers that uses a steel collet, and it requires the best high pressure lube available. (I've tested more lubricants than you can imagine.)

However, it's important to store your die wax at room temperature. If this stuff gets warm, it'll turn into Imperial Sizing Die "Oil", and that reduces it's effectiveness considerably.

MEHavey
March 1, 2013, 11:46 AM
I used Imperial for a couple of years -- until I stuck two cases back-to-back in a 308Win small-base die.

Returned to my trusty RCBS Case Lube (not the spray-on) ...and it was night & day (dramatically so)... especially noticeable in small-base sizing

All I can say is what I've experienced. :neener:

rcmodel
March 1, 2013, 11:51 AM
Many stuck case problems can be traced to shell holders that don't fit the cases rims correctly.

I used to stick a lot of them many years ago when using Herters press & Herters shell holders.
I was constantly pulling the rims off GI .223, and an occasional 30-06.
Using the same RCBS .223 dies I am still using.

I have never stuck another case since I switched to RCBS equipment in 1970.
RCBS shell holders just plain fit what they say they fit.

If the brass is in spec?
And thats another thing to check.
See if the offending cases are a different headstamp then the ones that aren't pull the rims off.

rc

icanthitabarn
March 1, 2013, 12:06 PM
I now have and use some RCBS lube, but often just pour 90% Isopropyl into my homemade pad and skip the lanolin. Never had a case stick out of 1000's or noticed the tiny dents. I never make any effort to do the necks and especially the insides.

Innovative
March 1, 2013, 12:07 PM
MEHavey ..........

That is an extremely common symptom when using small base dies. I've found that 99% of the time, SB dies are not needed. Most shooters don't accurately measure their shoulder clearance, they assume that using a tighter SB die will make their handkoads fit better.

Here's what really happens:

When your handloads have the shoulder pushed back too far, the case stretches too much when it's fired. This occurs every time the case is fired, and the cumulative stretching makes the brass become paper thin above the web (solid part of the case). Then, the case bulges during the reloading process, especially when you use a SB die. They're rarely needed in a properly cut chamber.

You might find that "some" of your cases will resize easier than others, but that is not because a lubricant appears to be better than Imperial Sizing Die Wax. (No . . . . I don't sell the stuff.)

RustyFN
March 1, 2013, 12:13 PM
Just managed to coax it out with the RCBS stuck case remover, but managed to bend the decapping/expander pin in the process (I removed the lock screws and banged on it first as per the Lee die instructions, apparently to drive the case out). Don't try it with RCBS and I doubt that method would even work with the Lee.

It works great with Lee dies. I have had to do it a couple of times, very fast and easy.

James2
March 1, 2013, 12:15 PM
RC, been the rounds with the Herters shell holders too. I finally got an adapter made and now use RCBS shell holders in the Herters press.

Case lube? I have had very good luck using high-pressure bearing grease. The same stuff I put in the grease gun for lubing machinery. I put a couple squirts in a small lid off some trash container. Then just get a small amount on the fingers and rub the casing before sizing. It only takes a light film. Too much lube can put dimples on the shoulder of rifle brass. If you should have this occur, you need to clean the die, then start over.

Yesterday I sized my first .223 case, using imperial, and STUCK it.

Yep, seems the first one is always the worst. I have learned to lube the first one very well, then cut it back some after that.

Centurian22
March 1, 2013, 12:16 PM
I'm going to keep on keepin on with my lanolin alcohol mix spray till I have a problem. Good luck with your first round sacrifice.

jr_roosa
March 1, 2013, 12:39 PM
Never stuck anything with RCBS lube.

Only case I ever stuck was in my new Forster coax that advertised that you can size a case without lube. It will, but if only one side of the shell holder jaws are engaged, off comes half the rim. Fun fun fun.

J.

rsrocket1
March 1, 2013, 01:08 PM
My best luck has been with STP oil additive or Bag Balm. The trick is to put a thin, even lube all the way down the case. Lube does not flow down the case as the die pushes against it and assuming so will guarantee a stuck case. Thin is important because if too much is used, you'll end up with shoulder dents.

The Dillon lube/IPA-Lanolin is nice, but it leaves a sticky residue and you still have to either re-tumble or wipe with a solvent-dampened rag so the savings in effort compared to finger-lubing are minor.

1KPerDay
March 1, 2013, 01:08 PM
Thanks for the ideas, guys. I'll superloob the first case on my next attempt. It did look like the shellholder ripped just the two outside edges off the rim.

rcmodel
March 1, 2013, 01:19 PM
ripped just the two outside edges off the rimWell theres your problem then.

No kind of lube is going to work if your shell plate isn't pulling evenly clear around the rim.

Same problem I had with the old Herters shell holders.
They didn't fit right.

rc

c.latrans
March 1, 2013, 01:25 PM
From RC: "Many stuck case problems can be traced to shell holders that don't fit the cases rims correctly."

This, exactly. Use the precise shell holder every time. And yeah, .223 is one of the worst in terms of sticking...stuck a couple myself the other day doing a batch of 500...and I have been doing this for 40 plus years, so you will likely see it again. But then, thats why stuck case removers are for sale.

dubbleA
March 1, 2013, 01:25 PM
In the 40+ years I have been handloading I have stuck one case and that was my fault for the lack of lube on the case. Truth is just about any grease/oil will work, its just that some will clean up easier and more convenient to use.

I have found out that sizing and caseforming is just like any other mechanical operation. If something doesnt work as designed and has to be forced, stop and find out why. There is a reason for it happening, after the fact it's to late.
You will gain a "feel" with every operation with handloading and should realize when something isnt right.

jmorris
March 1, 2013, 01:28 PM
Well, of the reloading gods are against you, I would suggest getting Dillon dies. They won't keep you from sticking a case but there are no dies out there that make removing a stuck case easyer. All you need is a wrench that fits the hex head on top.

GT1
March 1, 2013, 02:19 PM
You said the very first case. New die set or long unused die? A new (freshly cleaned, yes?) die or one that hasn't been used in a long time needs extra lube.
I get that paranoid feeling on the very first one now too. :uhoh:

1KPerDay
March 1, 2013, 02:23 PM
Anyone have an RCBS or other properly fitting .223 Rem shellholder they want to sell me cheap? :D

EDIT: wait... the .380 shellholder is the same size, right? I have a Lee in .380. Maybe I'll try that.

gamestalker
March 1, 2013, 05:25 PM
Been reloading for over 30 yrs. and have yet to stick a case. Make sure to lube the entire neck, body, and a very light film on the inside of the neck and you shouldn't ever stick a case. I even use spray on lubes and have never had a close call with those. When I first started reloading (.270 win and 30-06) I had a couple of stutters, but I quickly learned to take a little more care in proper lube application and it's been smooth sailing ever since.
GS

mtrmn
March 1, 2013, 06:01 PM
"Maybe I just need to sacrifice the first one to the reloading gods for each caliber I try."

THIS^^^^

MEHavey
March 1, 2013, 09:23 PM
MEHavey ..........

That is an extremely common symptom when using small base dies. I've found that 99% of the time, SB dies are not needed. Most shooters don't accurately measure their shoulder clearance, they assume that using a tighter SB die will make their handkoads fit better.Sorry troops, But I small-base all my gas guns: Three AR actions and two Garands (M1/M1A).** The difference is night & day between Imperial wax & the older/classic RCBS Case Lube.

As you know, the small base sizing action addresses a totally different case dimension than the shoulder. But as far as sizing/shoulder set-back, I also set the die/check afterwards based upon Stoney Point "headspace" gauge settings tailored to each gun -- determined and documented in the loading record book I keep for each.

I'm not overdoing it. Just paranoid. ;)




**While I might not "have" to do it (SB), it's just another insurance policy effort on my part. No big deal once you just make it part of the routine.

rcmodel
March 1, 2013, 09:30 PM
All this is well & good guys.

But if the OP's shell holder is tearing the rim off on ony two sides, and not 3/4 of the way around the rim???

It has nothing at all to do with what kind of case lube he is using.

His shell holder doesn't fit his rims all the way around.
And he will continue to pull rims off on the sides and stick cases until he gets a shell holder that fits properly and pulls all the way around the rim.

It could also be his shell holder does fit properly.
But the ram in his press is not aligned with the die properly, so the case rim is off-center with the die.

rc

Innovative
March 1, 2013, 10:02 PM
RC .......

I don't think the "uneven ripped-off case rim" was mentioned until around post #14, and you're right - that would suggest someone possibly using the wrong shellholder. (Most handloaders would notice that.)

However, after answering handloader's phone calls (on a daily basis) for 10 years, this symptom is usually caused by not using enough case lube or by using some cheap, homemade concoction. That's a bad idea when the cost of a lifetime supply of Imperial Sizing Die Wax is less than $8.

Most handloaders also need to know to lightly lube the case neck (absolutely no lube on the shoulder), and use more lube farther down the body.

kingmt
March 2, 2013, 12:06 AM
I've beat a few case out of my Lee die. I use the press leverage at the same time.

oldreloader
March 2, 2013, 01:58 AM
Yep..Been reloading for 40 + years and stuck my first case about a month ago. It was a .223 and I'm sure a poor fitting shell holder was the main contributing factor. I did another 100 last night with NO problems..

Trent
March 2, 2013, 03:35 AM
The last time I stuck a case was ... umm.. two or three nights ago.

Forgot to swap the shell holder. :)

I haven't stuck one due to lack of lube in 15 years. Been using RCBS #2 lube since day 1, except for big batches of 223, I use some spray & roll stuff. Forgot who makes it off the top of my head. Don't like that spray stuff as much. Doesn't seem to save any time over grabbing a handful and rolling them myself on the pad.

Trent
March 2, 2013, 03:37 AM
BTW if you use the wrong SHELLHOLDER... back the decap pin out, run the ram up, and slide the CORRECT one over the base. Then pull the case out and reset your decap pin.

No need to get a hammer or any of that crap. :)

Barr
March 2, 2013, 08:18 AM
Unfortunately I have been in your shoes before. One thing not mentioned is it is also helpful to ensure the inside of the die is clean. Rubbing alcohol is the easiest.

If you do remove a stuck case with the Lee method (decapping pin) it is helpful to either use a proper dia punch with the collet still engaged or use a bench vise to press out the decapping pin. If you do use a hammer and no collet you can mushroom the head of the pin and cold work the head.

I started loading some 6.5x52mm Carcano for a friend and none of the shell holders (we tried two brands) made properly fit the rim. When full length sizing we could not get the case to come out of the die without ripping the rim off the case. We even tried 3 different kinds of lubricant. We eventually settled for neck sizing only to prolong the life of the case and our sanity.

gypsynolan
March 2, 2013, 08:47 AM
old trick i learned about reloading. get yourself a block of parafin(sic) wax; u can buy it at any grocery store in the canning dept. roll your bullets in it when you r reloading. keeps gun from jamming. also easiest/cheapest way to reload is to use LEE loaders.most accurate too.

Centurian22
March 2, 2013, 09:23 AM
In the spirit of staying "high road" all I will say about the above post is take it with a HUGE grain of salt and do your own research before following the advice of others.

Out of curiosity gypsynolan, are you talking about rolling just the bullet or the whole cartridge, and how does rolling the bullets in parafin keep the gun from jamming?

ranger335v
March 2, 2013, 09:45 AM
AA - "In the 40+ years I have been handloading I have stuck one case and that was my fault for the lack of lube on the case. Truth is just about any grease/oil will work, its just that some will clean up easier and more convenient to use.

I have found out that sizing and caseforming is just like any other mechanical operation. If something doesnt work as designed and has to be forced, stop and find out why."


That's the truth. Most complaints about a 'poor case lube' can be traced to poor practice. Seems a lot of people want to lube the upper half of the case (including inside the neck) and that's NOT where cases get stuck! Lube the lower, thicker part of the case well - where they DO stick - and any case lube will do fine. And be aware of the effort needed to drive a case into the die --- if we have to hang off the lever that's a bit of a clue that we just may not have lubed it properly!

It's amusing to read about Imperial not being good for use in SB dies. I've used it to reform .30-06 into .22-250; no SB die will require what such massive case reforming requires! Of course Bag Balm, Hornady's Unique, toilet seal wax rings and a lot of other stuff will work just as well.

I started loading in '65 using STP (relabled and sold as RCBS case lube) and hated the sticky, nasty, messy stuff. Finally tried Lee's white toothpaste lube (a soap actually) and never looked back ... until I tried Imperial. Stayed with Imperial because it's even easier/faster to apply, a little cleaner to use and easy to wipe off with a paper towel.

Obviously the shell holder has to fit or any case will easily get the rim pulled off. I've never found a bad shell holder - or press or die for that matter - but it's certain to happen from time to time so we need to pay attention to our tools when problems suddenly appear.

kingmt
March 2, 2013, 11:53 AM
Funny I've been thing about this about a week. When I started I used spray funiture polish. It seemed to work well on most of the cases but a few were hard to extract & I stuck one. I ripped the rim off & bent the mandrel trying to get it out. I had to drill a hole big enough to get the mandrel out then drill the case thinner then tissue paper to fold the sides & take it out. I then switched to Meguiar's cleaner each.

Meguiar's works great but I got to wondering if the problem was I wasn't getting it on the bottom of the case. I was standing them up & spraying the top. I'm pretty sure that was the problem.

I'm cheep tho & the only use I have for the Meguiar's is reloading so I'll stick with it. My 8 year old started lubing cases for me so must of the mess is gone. :-)

AABEN
March 2, 2013, 12:23 PM
I have had no stock cases after going to RCBS pump sprayer. I did have trouble with one shoot.

doubleh
March 2, 2013, 12:57 PM
I bought a set of Lee shellholders years ago. Some fit great but part of them didn't. I have discarded the .223 holder after pulling the rim off a case . It was just too sloppy a fit. I use RCBS mostly now and every one fits like it should.

I've never used Imperial sizing wax. I did do an experiment with Johnson's paste wax fully expecting to have to remove a stuck case a while ago. It worked great and it is what I use for rifle cases now and haven't had a stuck case with it. It's very little more trouble than the spray. Guess I'll use up my full bottle of spray on tough pistol cases like 44 mag to make the carbide dies slippery.

ljnowell
March 2, 2013, 03:23 PM
old trick i learned about reloading. get yourself a block of parafin(sic) wax; u can buy it at any grocery store in the canning dept. roll your bullets in it when you r reloading. keeps gun from jamming. also easiest/cheapest way to reload is to use LEE loaders.most accurate too.

Um......uh..............ok.

In the spirit of staying "high road" all I will say about the above post is take it with a HUGE grain of salt and do your own research before following the advice of others.

Out of curiosity gypsynolan, are you talking about rolling just the bullet or the whole cartridge, and how does rolling the bullets in parafin keep the gun from jamming?

I'll second that. :D

scottishkat
March 9, 2013, 07:15 PM
I'm with c-latrans sometimes the shell holders are pretty large and the case rims can be small as well. I've had stuck cases with my 222 rem and RCBS case lube-2 works good don't use to much though.

david bachelder
March 10, 2013, 11:43 AM
I use RCBS Case Lube-2 and the lube pad, its all I've ever used. Its water soluble and does not feel greasy on my hands. I have never stuck a case and I've used it on 30-06 and .243 cases. I've used it on every case I've ever lubed both rifle and pistol. I never wash it off my finished cases, I'm not sure what happens to it, I guess it just disappears.

It works, its easy, its not messy, and I have had the same bottle well over a year. I don't understand why anyone would want or need to use anything else.

rogn
March 10, 2013, 12:32 PM
I think Imperial comes from 2 different sources. One is wonderful, the other aint. Ive been well underwhelmed with it. The fort required for sizing almost any case is 30% higher than most other lubes. Lanolin as high presssure lube is unbeatable. Gives the lowest effort with the most difficult sizing. Its not the most user friendly however. Kiwi mink oil is pretty darn good. Small batch-Lee case lube is great, if you want volume mix w/alcohol in a bag or closed contained and shake cases-100 at a time. Use RCBS properly and you'll never stick a case. Poor match of case holder and rim is trouble with any case. All rims are not created equal, and I dont know why. Ive been lucky over the years and have only stuck about 3 cases. Everyone due to stupid. Ive been lucky that way also as stupid is only allowed at the loading bench every 10 years and it has to be checked out.

1KPerDay
March 10, 2013, 02:43 PM
stupid is only allowed at the loading bench every 10 years well I'm waaaaay over my quota, then... :uhoh::D

BTW I had a close look at the lyman case holder and it SEEMS to fit the rim completely and relatively securely. I compared it to the .380 one from my Lee kit and the lee lets the rim rattle around more.

But the evidence suggests that the rim isn't fully engaged against the curved rear of the case holder. I've ripped the entire rim off a .30-06 with this same setup (different case holder obviously) so I assume it's centered re: die/ram, but since the .223 case had only its sides ripped off it makes me wonder how that could happen.

1KPerDay
March 10, 2013, 02:44 PM
BTW I emailed RCBS cust/serv over a week ago; sent via their website form and also emailed a duplicate via personal email. Haven't heard a peep back from them.

PhotoBiker
March 10, 2013, 06:29 PM
I jammed a .308 today in my Hornady. I was using the case lube, everything was fine. It sized fine, I removed it, wiped it down, and dropped it my gauge to find it wasn't seating all the way. I decided to put it back in the press, the rim snapped off in the shell holder.

I took a quick trip to the hardware store to create a puller kit (1/4" Fine & 5/16" tap, bolts, bushing, and drill bits). Took about 5 minutes to drill it out and remove it after I got back. This is a case (no pun) where I had all the tools but they were in toolboxes all around the house. I now have a kit with all the correct tools in my die drawer.

lightman
March 10, 2013, 07:20 PM
To me, thats the nice thing about the RCBS, and probably the other brands, is the box. It stacks and stores well on my die shelf. Lightman

highbrow
March 11, 2013, 09:05 PM
The last time I stuck a case was ... umm.. two or three nights ago.

Forgot to swap the shell holder. :)

I haven't stuck one due to lack of lube in 15 years. Been using RCBS #2 lube since day 1, except for big batches of 223, I use some spray & roll stuff. Forgot who makes it off the top of my head. Don't like that spray stuff as much. Doesn't seem to save any time over grabbing a handful and rolling them myself on the pad.


Been there, done that, more than once.:banghead:

fiftybmg
March 13, 2013, 05:07 AM
The Hornady one-shot works.

How you apply it determines the result. A vague squirt here and there is not going to cut it. The spray in a bag and shake method is not going to cut it.

For my .223 resizing, I stack the brass in a reloading tray, base down, using every second hole. That leaves gaps between the brass. Then spray One-Shot , once from each side of the tray.

I sized 400 mixed brass in one sitting, with not even a squeak from the sizing die.

Previously, I had used the RCBS spray, and I got many stuck .223 cases. It's not such a great lube, I'll use the rest of it on my pistol brass.

I know the Imperial Sizing Wax is the best lube out there, but I don't have time to individually lube hundreds of 223 cases.

blarby
March 13, 2013, 06:28 AM
I think you forgot to have your dies blessed before using them.

I remember that thread.

Bad luck happens- but a little die prep can go a long way.

Sorry for your luck ! All of the good answers have already been given.

fguffey
March 13, 2013, 12:31 PM
March 1, 2013, 12:19 PM #15
rcmodel
Member


Join Date: September 17, 2007
Location: Eastern KS
Posts: 40,209 Quote:
ripped just the two outside edges off the rim

Well theres your problem then.

No kind of lube is going to work if your shell plate isn't pulling evenly clear around the rim.

Same problem I had with the old Herters shell holders.
They didn't fit right.

rc
__________________
Don't put all your eggs in one basket.
Or all your primers in a glass jar!



Yes RC, I believe you should listen to L. Willis, beyond ripping the case head off or pulling the rim from the case there are two set screws that release the Herter’s shell holder, back the screws our, lower the ram then remove the shell holder, after removing the shell holder remove the die with the stuck case, then, screw the die into the press from the bottom with the case head up.

With RCBS type shell holders, rotate the shell holder until it it can be removed from the stuck case and from the ram at the same time, after removing the shell holder remove the die with the stuck case and reinstall it from the bottom. This procedure/technique allows the press to be used as a holding devise/vise.

Herters and precision shell holders? My favorite shell holder is the RCBS, my opinion? The RCBS shell holder is the versatile shell holders, with the RCBS shell holder I do not need Redding Competition shell holders, I do not need small base dies and I do not need short dies for sizing cases for short chambers. Back to Herter shell holders, I am limited as to what I can do with Herters, they have advantages if the reloader is firing and then sizing his fired cases.

F. Guffey

fguffey
March 13, 2013, 12:47 PM
remodel, back to the two set screws, the two set screws were not design to hold the shell holder with the same effort used when the ram is raised, when the ram is/was raised the shell holder set on the top of the ram with no load on the screws, when lowering the ram the screws were the only thing holding the shell holder.

Herters and fit, nothing fit better than Herters, again, my favorite? is brand is RCBS, fits like a shirt, it fits if it touches.

F. Guffey

Arkansas Paul
March 13, 2013, 12:56 PM
also easiest/cheapest way to reload is to use LEE loaders.


Right.
And the easiest way to mow your 5 acre yard is with a push mower.
And the easiest way to cut lumber is with a handsaw.
And the easiest way to start a fire is rubbing two sticks together.
I could do this all day.

1KPerDay
March 13, 2013, 02:32 PM
BTW I emailed RCBS cust/serv over a week ago; sent via their website form and also emailed a duplicate via personal email. Haven't heard a peep back from them.
Follow up: I called RCBS custserv just now, waited 6 minutes on hold, and they're sending me a replacement decapping pin/rod gratis. Thanks RCBS!

Centurian22
March 13, 2013, 03:47 PM
Glad they're taking care of you. I was going to have to retaliate against all those who so loudly bash Lee customer service and say how amazing RCBS is. Lol

1KPerDay
March 21, 2013, 02:44 PM
Got two packages from RCBS yesterday... 2 complete sets of replacement decapping rods, nuts, and 10 replacement pins.

Makes me happy I've bought so much RCBS stuff and ensures I will continue to do so. :cool:

Now I just need to find a better shellholder... I'm paranoid about using the Lyman and Lee ones I have now... :uhoh:

PhotoBiker
March 21, 2013, 09:52 PM
FYI: I was in a rush last night, stuck another LC case in my die. Since I had my "kit" in my reloading drawer, I had the case pulled and was back resizing in under 10 minutes.

1KPerDay
March 22, 2013, 01:22 PM
question: when you stick a case with the expander ball inside the case... how do you get the depriming rod/expander ball out of the case?? I've never been able to do that.

Innovative
March 22, 2013, 04:03 PM
1KPerDay ........
You're right. Once the rim is pulled off a case, it's usually difficult to remove the decapping rod. That's another benefit of using bushing type dies (like the Redding S-Type). However, depending on who's die you're using, you can try this:

1.) Unscrew the upper lock-nut from your die, and remove it.
2.) Then, pull back on the decapping rod until it's tight.
3.) Then, unscrew the decapping rod, leaving the expander ball to fall inside your case.
4.) Then, use a close fitting steel rid and a mallet to whack the case free.

1KPerDay
March 22, 2013, 05:23 PM
I can't unscrew the deapping rod from the expander ball even with them out of the case... I dunno how I'd do it with them in the case. They are TIGHT on there and I don't want to mar the ball by using pliers or whatever.

ranger335v
March 22, 2013, 07:18 PM
I stuck a lot of cases decades ago when experimenting with commercial and substitute case lubes. I didn't find any commercial lube - nor a lot of substitutes - to be lacking when it was properly applied - but nothing works very well if it's not properly applied.

About the only practical difference I found between lubes was the method of application and getting it back off but all that's a matter of personal preference. Bottom line, if we lube the lower, thicker case well (because that's where they get stuck) and any commercial lube will do fine.

So far as small base dies being more sticky than others, I sometimes reform .30-06 to .22-250 with Imperial and similar softened waxes (Kiwi Mink Oil, Bag Balm, etc) with total satisfaction; no .223 SB die has a harder job to do than that!

I get amused at the oft posted cautions to lube inside the case necks to prevent sticking. It helps expanders get out but I don't know how lube matters on a case surface that never touches the die! :D

1KPerDay
March 23, 2013, 09:42 PM
STUCK ANOTHER ONE@!$#!@#!! :cuss:

Installed the new guts, tried Lee case holder for .223, made sure the ball was lightly lubed, made sure the neck was lubed, lubed the outside of the case with Imperial sizing wax, sized it, went fine. wiped it off, measured in case gauge, needed more setback, turned in the die quarter turn, lubed it, sized it, measured okay. Got the next case, lubed the neck, lubed the case, ran it into the die and stuck it. It took noticeably more force to size, but it was the same headstamp (LC06). But of course by the time you feel it taking more force it's too late. It doesn't say small base or S.B. on the RCBS die. Just RCBS 77 .223. Could it be undersized?? My brass was fired in ARs and SCARs and Minis, not a machine gun or anything...

Swear. Remove the sizing rod, ball stays in case. Look in kit for bit to drill case. Bit isn't there. Look up on internet, says .20". I mic a few bits. Don't have anything the right size. Go to ace hardware and buy $5 11/64 bit. Drive home, bit spins in chuck/binds in case. Drop something, look on floor of garage and find the #7 bit that came with RCBS kit. Drill case. Attempt to thread case. Crappy japanese tap that came with RCBS kit has been worn out in 2 uses... teeth are broken, dulled, won't tap the case, slips out. Ride motorcycle to Ace hardware, buy $6 1/4x20 tap. Ride home, tap works fine. Remove case.

I have an RCBS shellholder on the way from Midway. But after spending what feels like a ridiculous amount of money and time and effort on this enterprise I'm seriously about ready to throw this POS out the window and accept the fact that I simply wasn't meant to reload .223. :fire::banghead:

Innovative
March 24, 2013, 12:04 AM
1KPerDay ......

When you turned your die in another 1/4 turn, that shows that you were guessing at chamber clearance. Research the Digital Headspace Gauge, and you'll see how to FL resize accurately. Your handloads will always chamber perfectly. The rest of your reloading technique is fine.

Anmut
March 24, 2013, 12:18 AM
Another vote for RCBS case lube and a pad. It's so simple to take the case, roll it on the pad and run it into the die I'm not sure why people need to reinvent the wheel with lubing constantly...

1KPerDay
March 24, 2013, 12:21 AM
1KPerDay ......

When you turned your die in another 1/4 turn, that shows that you were guessing at chamber clearance. Research the Digital Headspace Gauge, and you'll see how to FL resize accurately. Your handloads will always chamber perfectly. The rest of your reloading technique is fine.
I have a Wilson case gauge that shows min and max headspace clearance and overall length... do I need something else?

And there's somethingwrong or I wouldn't be having to drill/tap 2 out of three cases to get them un-stuck. I've literally produced ONE sized case in a month of trying.

dmazur
March 24, 2013, 12:34 AM
...do I need something else?

Probably not. Calipers can be used with the Wilson gauge. (One way is to use the depth rod to measure the head with the tail of the calipers "straddling" the upper step on the gauge.)

Other tools, such as the RCBS Precision Mic or Innovative's dial gauge, make it easier. But they are not required.

All you need is a standard to compare your fired case headspace to resized case headspace. (In this context "headspace" is cartridge headspace, the distance from the head of the case to the shoulder datum.)

What may not have been mentioned is that mixed range brass may not resize the same, due to different number of firings making the brass progressively harder.

If you have consistent brass, consistent lube, and the die is adjusted properly (and locked down tight), you should get consistent resizing. :)

Innovative
March 24, 2013, 09:39 AM
1KPerDay ......

The Wilson case gauge works "assuming" that your chamber is correct, and it doesn't show the exact clearance that you have. Unlike the RCBS Precision Mic, the Digital Headspace Gauge works on ALL different calibers.

There are other tools that can measure your handloads, but they require special bushings or attachments and some of them require 3 hands to operate.

Most shooters don't use any method of measuring their handloads, and they seem to get by fine. However, when you're experiencing problems with your handloads, accurate measuring will show you exactly where (and how bad) your problem is. It's best to know (for sure) how your handloads fit. Make them chamber with 100% reliability, and reduce unwanted clearance for best accuracy and longer brass life.

1KPerDay
March 25, 2013, 12:28 PM
I checked out your gizmo; looks cool! If i were reloading for one rifle I'd definitely be in the market. However I'm reloading for several... so I'm going to have to live with potentially shorter case life in the name of universal compatibility.

Got it working... using a different press. Single stage Bair from prehistoric times. Primers go everywhere but it's working, by gum! Lubed the heck out of the brass and dented the first couple shoulders, and then it settled in. Still takes a lot of effort to size, particularly LC brass. But haven't stuck another (yet) :rolleyes: .

I need to get a universal decapper that works for .223; I have one that is awesome but is .27-caliber and up. I could decap in my Lee press (which has a primer dump tube) and then size in the Bair. I got a blister from sizing about 15 cases this morning... the Bair has no linkage to make it easier to shove the case into the die or yank it out. But the cases are measuring fine in my Wilson case gauge so I guess I'm off and running. Now to figure out a better system for removing primer crimps.

Innovative
March 25, 2013, 01:09 PM
1KPerDay ......

- The Digital Headspage Gauge is universal, and it works on ALL different calibers.

- For removing primers, I use a $3. Lee Universal Primer Punch, a plastic mallet and a shellholder sitting on the bench. It's just as quick as using a decapping die, and the primers stay put.

John3921
March 25, 2013, 01:37 PM
1k - I have precisely '0' experience with the .223. I have managed to stick a few .300 win mag cases though. Being too cheap to buy a stuck case remover I just use a hex head self drilling screw. find a socket that is big enough to seat on the base of your die - without trapping the case, get a hex head self drilling screw that will go through the socket- maybe a 1/4" screw and long enough to go through the socket and completely through the base of the hull with the threads. Instant and cheap stuck case remover. It does not work if can't back the expander ball out far enough to clear the tapping tip on the screw though.

Certaindeaf
March 25, 2013, 01:47 PM
You will notice that many given Lee shell holders will hold more cartridges than let's say RCBS (I don't know about Lyman).. check and see for yourself. If a given shellholder will hold more cases than another brand, that holder is more "sloppy". Sometimes you may well have to "splurge" on an RCBS or other holder.. sometimes not. Good luck and that sucks.

fguffey
March 25, 2013, 04:01 PM
Today, 12:37 PM #67
John3921
Member


Join Date: February 2, 2012
Location: Montana
Posts: 87 1k - I have precisely '0' experience with the .223. I have managed to stick a few .300 win mag cases though. Being too cheap to buy a stuck case remover I just use a hex head self drilling screw. find a socket that is big enough to seat on the base of your die - without trapping the case, get a hex head self drilling screw that will go through the socket- maybe a 1/4" screw and long enough to go through the socket and completely through the base of the hull with the threads. Instant and cheap stuck case remover. It does not work if can't back the expander ball out far enough to clear the tapping tip on the screw though.
__________________
NRA Life member


John3921
View Public Profile
Find More Posts by John3921

Today, 12:47 PM #68
Certaindeaf
Member


Join Date: January 16, 2012
Location: Wet Oregon
Posts: 3,997 You will notice that many given Lee shell holders will hold more cartridges than let's say RCBS (I don't know about Lyman).. check and see for yourself. If a given shellholder will hold more cases than another brand, that holder is more "sloppy". Sometimes you may well have to "splurge" on an RCBS or other holder.. sometimes not. Good luck and that sucks.
__________________
Sent from my computer using my fingers.



A reloader insist on drilling the hole in the head of the case with a 1/4” drill then tap, I can not help those reloaders, I drill the hole in the head of the case to .375”. the 3/8” (.375”) hole will allow most sizer plug/recapping assembles to be removed out the bottom. then there is the perceived difference between shell holders, the deck height of a shell holder is .125” I do not care what brand, if the deck height is not .125 get your money back.
BUT!!! before you do di the research, there are advantages to having shell holders with different deck heights, some reloaders spend $40.00 for a set of 5 shell holders with different deck heights that range from +.002 to +.010, I purchases a set of #6 for $5.00, three if them were off by .001” each. I did not need them but for $5.00 dollars, I could not pass them up. I can do anything the Reddidng shell holders can accomplish with a $11.00 feeler gage plus I can size cases for short chamber with the same feeler gage.

Then there is the unnecessary separating the case from the shell holder when the ram is lowered, the case can be separated from the shell holder by rotating the shell holder until it can be removed from the ram and case at the same time. After seperating the case from the shell holder remove the die with the stuck case then reinstall/ screw in back into the press from the bottom, this method will allow the reloader to use the press as a vise or means of holding the die while drilling the case head. Again, drill the hole large enough to allow the removal of the primer punch/sizer plug assemble.

F. Guffey

fguffey
March 25, 2013, 04:14 PM
March 23, 2013, 10:04 PM #60
Innovative
Member


Join Date: October 24, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 253 1KPerDay ......

When you turned your die in another 1/4 turn, that shows that you were guessing at chamber clearance. Research the Digital Headspace Gauge, and you'll see how to FL resize accurately. Your handloads will always chamber perfectly. The rest of your reloading technique is fine.
__________________
Visit our website at WWW.LARRYWILLIS.COM it's devoted to helping shooters make the best handloads possible.





“Research the Digital Headspace Gauge” I did, there is nothing about the “Digital Headspace Gauge” that looks like a head space gage, then there is SAAMI, SAAMI does not list head space on the cartridge, only the chamber, the case has 2 length, one from the head of the case to the mouth of the case, the other is the length of the case from the shoulder/datum back to the head of the case.

Wilson calls their gage a case length gage complete with a datum. I use the same feeler gage I use for setting up my dies when sizing as I do to determine the length of the case from Wilsons datum. With the use of a straight edge or flat surface of a set-up table I can determine the length of the case in thousandths from the Wilson Datum to the head of the case, again, for the same $11.00 dollars.

F. Guffey

taliv
March 25, 2013, 04:40 PM
how are you guys getting cases stuck? i don't get it. i've reloaded probably close to 100k 223 cases (only a couple thousand LC though) mostly RP and PPU on 3 different presses with 3 brands of dies (wilson, redding, dillon). Only one I ever stuck was when i didn't use lube, and it didn't stick that bad. i was able to beat it out with a hammer and punch.

i'm using the same lube / wax too.

what gives?

1KPerDay
March 25, 2013, 04:44 PM
1KPerDay ......

- The Digital Headspage Gauge is universal, and it works on ALL different calibers.

I realize that... but my understanding is that your device gives you the measurements for A particular rifle, based on measuring a fired case, and helps you set up your dies to load for THAT particular rifle. I'm loading .223 for multiple rifles. Does that make sense?

1KPerDay
March 25, 2013, 04:48 PM
how are you guys getting cases stuck? i don't get it. i've reloaded probably close to 100k 223 cases (only a couple thousand LC though) mostly RP and PPU on 3 different presses with 3 brands of dies (wilson, redding, dillon). Only one I ever stuck was when i didn't use lube, and it didn't stick that bad. i was able to beat it out with a hammer and punch.

i'm using the same lube / wax too.

what gives?
You tell me, man... it's a mystery to me. I think PERHAPS the combination of a pretty snug FL sizing die and POSSIBLY an off-center ram on the LCT (though it's given me nothing but joy over thousands of handgun rounds) combined with a slightly loose shellholder conspired against me.

MAYBE the die just needed to get more lube in its guts. MAYBE my Bair single stage press' ram is centered properly and that makes the difference with the shellholder. Maybe the "cam-over" action of the older press does something to help... but in any case, I got it working, as noted above. I'd take the die out of the Bair and put it back in the Lee and do a test to see if the lee sticks again, but I don't want to reset the Die (nor do I want to drill out ANOTHER case).

Innovative
March 25, 2013, 05:17 PM
1KPerDay ........

Once the Digital Headspace Gauge is calibrated for one rifle you're you're all set. If you reload one caliber for several rifles, and you want fully interchangable ammo, you can simply calibrate this gauge to factory ammo.

However, for belted magnum and rimmed calibers, it's important to not calibrate to factory loads. This is because the repetitive case stretching (with factory shoulder clearances) can cause case head separation.

Guffey will be glad to know that I now have Precision Die Shims that fit under the FL sizing die. The Digital Headspace Gauge shows exactly which shim(s) to use for each chamber. They adjust die height quickly in .001" increments all the way to .017"

fguffey
March 25, 2013, 06:28 PM
Today, 04:17 PM #74
Innovative
Member


Join Date: October 24, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 254 1KPerDay ........



Guffey will be glad to know that I now have Precision Die Shims that fit under the FL sizing die. The Digital Headspace Gauge shows exactly which shim(s) to use for each chamber. They adjust die height quickly in .001" increments all the way to .017"
__________________
Visit our website at WWW.LARRYWILLIS.COM it's devoted to helping shooters make the best hand loads possible.


And you did that all by yourself with no help from the Internet and or Skip’s shims?

Again, nice to have? but not necessary, the next question. How do you verify the adjustment?

F. Guffey

1KPerDay
March 25, 2013, 07:07 PM
Mr Guffey, FYI if you would like to quote someone in your post, click on the little paper and quill to the right of their post ("quick reply to this message") and then type your post in the quick reply window below, and be sure to click "quote message in reply" below the window. And if you want to edit parts of their quote, you can then click click "go advanced" and it will show the quoted text and you can remove any parts you don't wish to repeat in your post.

:)

lightman
March 25, 2013, 07:24 PM
It sounds like you have something wrong. I would give the inside of the die a good look. I would also get a bore brush and some solvent after it. I might even go farther, and get a bore mop and some polish, and use an electric drill to polish it a little. 35 year old dies have had lots of time to pick up a load of crud, or rust! The correct shell holder is also very important. Lightman

Innovative
March 25, 2013, 09:25 PM
Guffey ........

After the Digital Headspace Gauge is calibrated to your fired case, just measure one of your first handloads. The gauge then displays the exact shoulder clearance that your handloads in your particular chamber. Just use the appropriate die shim to get the chamber clearance you want.

My die shims look exactly like Skip's. However, unlike Skip's shims, my set includes a .001" shim, each shim is individually measured with a 6 digit micrometer, and my shims are a bit cheaper.
Did I get help from someone ?
(Some of my products are not patented.)

Even though you can reload without "extra" equipment, it would solve a whole lot of resizing problems (including stuck cases, fail to chamber and case head separations).

1KPerDay
March 25, 2013, 10:34 PM
How does it solve stuck cases?

Innovative
March 25, 2013, 11:47 PM
1KPerDay .........

It prevents cases from getting stuck.

Here's how:

When the shoulder of a case gets pushed back too far, it is blown too far forward every time it is fired. This stretches (and thins the case) more at every firing. Thin brass bulges easily with any downward pressure from reloading, and trying to resize a bulged base is often way too tight for your sizing die. Case bulge always occurs above the web where thin brass transitions to solid brass.

Accurate measuring helps to maintain the minimum shoulder clearance that reduces stretched brass case bulge. It also helps to increase brass life, ensures reliable chambering, and it can reduce case run-out.

fguffey
March 26, 2013, 01:46 PM
Yesterday, 08:25 PM #78
Innovative
Member


Join Date: October 24, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 256 Guffey ........

After the Digital Headspace Gauge is calibrated to your fired case, just measure one of your first handloads. The gauge then displays the exact shoulder clearance that your handloads in your particular chamber. Just use the appropriate die shim to get the chamber clearance you want.

My die shims look exactly like Skip's. However, unlike Skip's shims, my set includes a .001" shim, each shim is individually measured with a 6 digit micrometer, and my shims are a bit cheaper.
Did I get help from someone ?
(Some of my products are not patented.)

Even though you can reload without "extra" equipment, it would solve a whole lot of resizing problems (including stuck cases, fail to chamber and case head separations).
__________________
Visit our website at WWW.LARRYWILLIS.COM it's devoted to helping shooters make the best handloads possible.



The question: WAS, about validating the adjustment.

Yesterday, 05:28 PM #75
fguffey
Member


Join Date: August 28, 2008
Posts: 1,454 Today, 04:17 PM #74
Innovative
Member




Guffey will be glad to know that I now have Precision Die Shims that fit under the FL sizing die. The Digital Headspace Gauge shows exactly which shim(s) to use for each chamber. They adjust die height quickly in .001" increments all the way to .017"
__________________
Visit our website at WWW.LARRYWILLIS.COM it's devoted to helping shooters make the best hand loads possible.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Guffey will be glad to know that I now have Precision Die Shims” Not sure why you would think I would be glad, I never thought ‘Skip’s Shims’ were a good ideal, to install a shim between the locking ring and press the die must be removed, then there is that part where the lock ring is secured to the die, I adjust my die to the shell holder every time, meaning? I do not secure the lock ring to the die, I secure the die to the press with the lock ring. Back to the question, “How do you validate the adjustment”, again, I am the fan of standards, transfers and validating. I skip Skip’s shims, I go straight to validating, I validate the adjustment with the feeler gage (Redding refers to the feeler gage as being a thickness gage), I do not remove the die to make adjustments, I have never found it necessary, but if I did I would still validate the adjustment.

Logic? Why make an adjustment by adding a shim by removing the die to add, then validate the effect the shim made on the adjustment? Forget the shim, go straight to validating with the feeler gage. Then there is never, never a recommendation to measure the case that is new minimum length/full length sized before firing. WHY? I do not know. Why can’t a reloader determine if the press successfully sized the case when the ram was raised? The only way a case is restored to minimum length/full length sized the die must contact the shell holder, When the die does not contact the shell holder the case being sized is holding the die off the shell holder, again, the feeler gage, the transfer, the standard can be used to determine the amount of case that did not get sized by measuring the gap between the die and shell holder, I know, some use light, again, if I was a light measuring individual I would still validate the results with the feeler gage. You? I am not sure how you would get the digital case comparator between the shell holder and bottom of the die,

Back to resistance to sizing, in the perfect world I use new cases when forming, then there are once fired cases, after that? It is down hill. The reloader needs/should know an increase in resistance to sizing requires and additional increase in the presses ability to overcome case resistance to being sized. I have presses that are guaranteed not to flex, 3 total. I do not get a promise cases will not stick.

I received a set of dies that belonged to a collector, reloader, shooter in Pennsylvania, the dies belonged to his father, the dies were RCBS 30/06. He had stuck a case, I know he could have sent the dies to Oreville. Cal. he did not to know there was a case stuck in the die, he wanted to know why there was a case stuck in his die. I started by removing the stuck case, then I started with my cases and lube available to everyone, I stuck the first 3 cases, finally after sticking, sizing and removing cases I sized 60 cases, after sizing 60 cases the die stopped keeping the cases, the only information I had when determining the problem was the part provided information about cleaning, I do not clean dies like they were brake drums/disc and oil saturated shoes. I clean dies with a towel in a dowel, I avoid cross hatches, burnishing, honing, it is not easy to improve on the finish, and I am the fan of 100% contact. The collector, reloader, shooter kept the dies as back-ups, he did not trust the dies.

F. Guffey

Backing the die off to avoid sizing is a bad habit, unless the reloader knows the length of the chamber, your method is based on measuring fired cases, meaning? the reloader did not/does not know the length of the chamber before firing, I am the fan of knowing the length of the chamber before firing, I can make a case comparator (case length gage) using tools that exist and available on the reloading bench. I had a 6 digit gage to the right of the decimal point, approximate weight is 35 pounds, I could brag about having the gage or use it, I removed the electronics then installed a dial indicator on the stylist, the gage still requires standards and transfers, the advantage was the height, 11 inches, wringing gages together helps when zeroing the gage.

1KPerDay
March 26, 2013, 02:35 PM
You know something? This sucks! I just want these to go bang and be reasonably accurate and not blow up rifles. I sized a bunch more and realized I still had to tumble, ream crimps, clean primer pockets, trim, deburr, confirm safe cartridge headspace (LC 06 is apparently more "springy" than some WCC and TW brass I have; it measures a thousandth or two above the gauge while the others are fine). etc. etc.

It isn't worth the time and effort to me. Handgun reloading is fun and easy. I enjoy it and I have success with it. It saves me a lot of money. It's like kindergarten while rifle reloading is like engineering grad school. :barf:

I still have a small amount of .223. If/when I run out, I'll take some time off work and send my wife and kids on vacation and spend a few weeks making 20 rounds. :rolleyes: :banghead:

I'm seriously about ready to toss the whole kit and kaboodle and list all my rifle dies, tools, and components for sale. Or trade for valium... :rolleyes:

Innovative
March 26, 2013, 02:49 PM
!KPerDay .......
Rifle handloads are very easy to make. (Some people just make it sound complicated.) Read one or two reloading manuals, and you'll learn a whole lot. It's better than solving technical problems by committee on the Internet.

Sometimes a shooting forum can help. However, it's best (if you have a specific question), to ask someone in the reloading industry. Every company in this industry has technicians that would be glad to help you solve a problem.

1KPerDay
March 26, 2013, 03:30 PM
!KPerDay .......
Rifle handloads are very easy to make. .
If you say so.... :)

Certaindeaf
March 26, 2013, 03:41 PM
.the..
guff, the way you quote stuff is fairly confusing.. I don't even read it.

fguffey
March 26, 2013, 04:07 PM
Certaindeaf,

“guff, the way you quote stuff is fairly confusing.. I don't even read it”

And that is OK, you are neither obligated and no demand is placed on you to even try.

F. Guffey

Certaindeaf
March 26, 2013, 04:35 PM
^
I hear you and don't worry about it.. just trying to help.

If you enjoyed reading about "Stuck another rifle case! yaaaaay!" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!