Arg.. gotta pull 200+ reloads...


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Anmut
March 3, 2013, 06:53 PM
Over the weekend I have been loading some .40sw. I have some Hornady HAP 180g HP's and Accurate #5 which is the same powder I use for my .45, 380 and 44mag loads.

Anyway my Lee load book that I uses as my bible says starting load is 6.2g up to 7g. I load on the light side because, well why put up with the extra flash and recoil if you don't have to and I've got a glock 22, known for their KB's with the stock barrel and hot loads.

So last night I get on the Accurate website and check our their load data and for the same jacketed bullet and weight their start load is 5.6 and their top end is 6.6.

Because I use the Lee powder measure and do a starting and ending load I can tell the most of my powder throws were going to be in the 6.2-6.4 which was before on the starting side but now close to the max load.

So instead of taking a chance I'm going to pull them and reload them. I bought an RCBS puller and a 40 size collet for it for $30.

What a pain - but better than blowing up a barrel/mag/hand, right?

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Muddydogs
March 3, 2013, 07:04 PM
So the Lee book that is used by thousands of reloader says the load is all right up to 7 grains. You check another site and there top load is 6.6, you think your loads are between 6.2 to 6.4 and you feel there unsafe? Did you work up your load, I assume not or you would know they were safe. But still you are under the book max and are worried about it. Pick a book and stay with it, I use Speer #14 for all my loading needs unless they don't list a bullet or I am shooting something like an all copper bullet. You can pick up 20 books and they will all have a different listing for the same bullet powder combo in the end you are going to drive yourself crazy.

Work up your load then you will know whats safe for your weapon.

jgh4445
March 3, 2013, 07:06 PM
What he said!

Trent
March 3, 2013, 07:20 PM
Man.. I'd shoot 'em.

But that's just me.

If you are REAL worried, work up a set of rounds to GET you to where you are at.

THEN shoot them once you've proven up to that point. :)

But either way, I'd shoot 'em.

Anmut
March 3, 2013, 07:21 PM
Muddydogs - well it's a pretty significant difference in start and max grains. Not only that but if you google Accurate #5 and glock kb's there are a lot of different instances. One of the things that I noticed in all of them was that most were loading 6.5-8g's of powder!

I'm going to error on the side of caution when it comes to creating small bombs in my favorite carry piece.

Mike 27
March 3, 2013, 07:22 PM
If you are concerned work some up from 5.6 and check on the way to where you have the others loaded. If you get there successfully then I would not pull them. You may find a better load lower anyway. My 2 cents.....I check a few sources before selecting a start point as I have jumped on with a certain book and found them all very hot. My rule of thumb is check 2 to 3 sources.

Anmut
March 3, 2013, 07:24 PM
Oh and I forgot to add to this story was that I had to settle for small pistol magnum primers (due to the current climate) so I'm already starting with a 10% over pressure in my load.

Reefinmike
March 3, 2013, 07:24 PM
Just load up 5 of each of 5.6, 5.8 and 6.0 grains. shoot em starting low, catching the brass and inspecting it for any pressure signs such as splits, buldges or flatened/cratered primers. If the 6.0 load is fine, then move up to the 6.2/6.3 that you loaded up and check for pressure signs.

when working up a new load with a different powder or bullet, make up several of each powder charge and test em to see what you like the best. im sure the 200 you loaded up are safe.

Muddydogs
March 3, 2013, 07:27 PM
Muddydogs - well it's a pretty significant difference in start and max grains. Not only that but if you google Accurate #5 and glock kb's there are a lot of different instances. One of the things that I noticed in all of them was that most were loading 6.5-8g's of powder!

I'm going to error on the side of caution when it comes to creating small bombs in my favorite carry piece.
Well I guess if you were that worried about your favorite carry piece then you should have worked up the load. Do what others suggest and work up a load and see were you get pressure. If you don't past your current loaded rounds then you are good to go.

Anmut
March 3, 2013, 07:27 PM
Mike 27 - I'm going to do exactly that - or at least get close to it. Like I said originally I'm not a fan of hot loads for practice shooting so even if I wasn't worried about hot load in an stock glock barrel in the .40sw caliber I would have probably pulled them anyway.

It's a learning experience for me though, I should have double checked the manufactures website first and compared it like I have in the past. Instead I went into full ammo making mode and cranked them out on my single-stage!

bds
March 3, 2013, 07:28 PM
Accurate load data (http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/accurate_load_data_3.5.pdf) lists 5.9 gr as start charge and 6.6 gr as max charge for 1.135" OAL. AFAIK, HAP is similar to XTP but has more rounded nose profile for easier feeding/chambering for match shooting. If it was me, I would shoot the 6.2 - 6.4 gr loads if the OAL was not too short. What OAL are you using?

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=180735&stc=1&d=1362356803

Anmut
March 3, 2013, 07:30 PM
Muddydogs - With the bullet puller in the mail I'm going to try to do some reverse engineering on some of my favorite factory loads and work from there.

Anmut
March 3, 2013, 07:37 PM
1.132 is the OAL of the loads.

bds
March 3, 2013, 07:39 PM
If you are using 1.132" OAL, I would pull a few random samples to verify the powder charge of 6.2-6.4 grains and shoot them.


I'm going to try to do some reverse engineering on some of my favorite factory loads and work from there.
You do realize that factory ammunition uses bulk non-canister powders that are different from canister powders we use?

Many have tried to match factory ammunition but only come close using published load data and chrono.

Here's a thread that shows factory ammunition pulled apart use different powder than what we use - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=706260

Steve H
March 3, 2013, 07:42 PM
I'd choot 'em

beatledog7
March 3, 2013, 07:48 PM
Leave 'em loaded, work up to the charge they have--changing nothing else but the powder charge, and see how the workup goes. If you make it to 6.2 with no pressure issues, then they're good to go.

Anmut
March 3, 2013, 07:49 PM
BDS yes I get that -well measure out the grains, compare it to the reloading book, find something similar, build up and shoot! Sounds like a good time!

BYJO4
March 3, 2013, 08:04 PM
Better safe than sorry as the old saying goes. If you have doubts, then I would pull the bullets. It wont take that long and you will feel better. As already mentioned, I also look at starting loads from several sources before I begin a new load. While manuals always vary, it makes since not to go overboard on a starting load. I use the Lyman and Speer manuals for the majority of my info.

ljnowell
March 3, 2013, 08:23 PM
OP, I have been using a Lee Powder measure for over 5 years. I use AA#2 and AA#5 because they meter perfectly in my powder measure. I cant believe you are getting that kind of variation with that fine of a granule powder.

Otto
March 3, 2013, 08:26 PM
When using Hornady bullets you should use Hornady load data.
The MAX is 7.3 of AA5 for a 180gr HAP in 40S&W.
At 6.4gr you're way under the maximum....and there's absolutely no need to pull any bullets.

Elkins45
March 3, 2013, 08:33 PM
There are some interesting contrasts here. On the one hand you are so cautious that you want to pull 200 rounds that may well be perfectly safe, but on the other you are willing to "reverse engineer" factory ammo by attempting to visually identify what is certainly a non-canister grade powder.

One of these things is MUCH more dangerous than the other, and it ain't the one that uses published load data.

35 Whelen
March 3, 2013, 09:21 PM
Sounds like the real problem is the Glock. I'd get something that's not so fragile and shoot the ammo.

35W

Fire_Moose
March 3, 2013, 09:57 PM
There are some interesting contrasts here. On the one hand you are so cautious that you want to pull 200 rounds that may well be perfectly safe, but on the other you are willing to "reverse engineer" factory ammo by attempting to visually identify what is certainly a non-canister grade powder.

One of these things is MUCH more dangerous than the other, and it ain't the one that uses published load data.

I was thinking the same thing.

Although maybe you should pull 150 of them as punishment for not working the load up with 5-10 or each charge.

Be safe.


PS I second ditching the glock :p

Sent from my CZ85 Combat

ljnowell
March 3, 2013, 10:12 PM
Sounds like the real problem is the Glock. I'd get something that's not so fragile and shoot the ammo.

35W

Never miss an opportunity to bash someones gun of choice(especially a glock) right?:cuss:

Its great when people post something that isnt helpful at all, just to sneak an insult in. Its exactly what the name The High Road is all about!:banghead:

bds
March 3, 2013, 10:27 PM
ljnowell, I read on an internet forum that Glocks cause reloaders to load squibs, overcharged and double-charged loads on Saturdays but not on Sundays ... so what Whelen posted could be true. :uhoh:

:D:D:D

edfardos
March 3, 2013, 10:27 PM
I've shot thousands of 180's with 6.5 grains of aa#5 (spp). Mostly plated berry's and xtreme seated to 1.125. I shot a few at 6.7 too.. Around 875fps iirc.. Mag primer might add 30-50fps.

I'd shoot'm,

edfardos

gamestalker
March 3, 2013, 11:41 PM
I know the feeling, I just pulled about 150 rounds of 7mm RM a couple of days ago using the old trusty kinetic hammer method, yuk!

GS

35 Whelen
March 4, 2013, 12:08 AM
Never miss an opportunity to bash someones gun of choice(especially a glock) right?:cuss:

Its great when people post something that isnt helpful at all, just to sneak an insult in. Its exactly what the name The High Road is all about!:banghead:
Lighten up Pee Wee. I'm not bashing anyone's gun.

If a firearm is known to have an inherent weakness, why own it be it a S&W, Colt, Taurus, Ruger or Glock?

Toyota had a recall of vehicles due to the possibility of the accelerator sticking in some of their 2009/2010 models. Knowing this problem existed, would you buy one of the recalled models? Me neither...

35W

Trent
March 4, 2013, 12:15 AM
There's plenty of 40 S&W that don't have fully supported chambers.

But.. I wouldn't bash Glocks because they're more popular (and have proportionally more kabooms reported) than other brands.

It's a handgun.

Load responsibly.

(But ... not fearfully. If you proof up to or past that load in .1 gr increments, and you're not seeing guppy bellies or flattened primers, SHOOT THEM.)

Can't live life in a bubble-wrapped room.

ljnowell
March 4, 2013, 12:31 AM
Lighten up Pee Wee. I'm not bashing anyone's gun.

If a firearm is known to have an inherent weakness, why own it be it a S&W, Colt, Taurus, Ruger or Glock?

Toyota had a recall of vehicles due to the possibility of the accelerator sticking in some of their 2009/2010 models. Knowing this problem existed, would you buy one of the recalled models? Me neither...

35W
__________________

Hey its PeeWee now, huh? Why doesnt that surprise me any. Again, you sure are being helpful in this reloading thread. Real High Road again. You sure are an asset to this forum, let me tell you.

This was a question about variances in load data. You chose the low road and started in on Glocks, and now choose it again in name calling. I think its fantastic that you show us all how helpful you are!

bds
March 4, 2013, 12:39 AM
Before things go south, let's take the High Road and get back to helping the OP. :D

gamestalker
March 4, 2013, 12:41 AM
What Trent said. I load for all kinds of .40's, including Glocks. And if a reloader is using the tried and tested methods, he, or she, should never have problems because of a weapons inherent characteristics. It's the nature of the hobby, as is using sensible work up procedures.

GS

rondog
March 4, 2013, 01:26 AM
I feel your pain. I recently broke down 500 .303 Brit reloads because my Enfields don't like boat-tailed bullets, and they were keyholing every time.

ljnowell
March 4, 2013, 01:31 AM
Before things go south, let's take the High Road and get back to helping the OP.

Sounds like a plan!

Lost Sheep
March 4, 2013, 01:59 AM
Muddydogs - With the bullet puller in the mail I'm going to try to do some reverse engineering on some of my favorite factory loads and work from there.
Reverse engineering on factory ammunition?

Unless you know what powder and primer they used, you are shooting in the dark. No one I have ever heard of has ever reverse engineered factory ammunition.

Yes, you have a learning event here.

You loaded a boatload of ammunition with an unproven powder charge. Unproven by research and unproven in your gun through diligent workup. The good new is that your 200 rounds are mid-range in one manual's data, so might be perfectly fine.

If you had started at 5.6 grains you might have found them not powerful enough to cycle the action and would have moved up in charge weight. Eventually, you might have gotten up to 6.4 and found them safe in your gun.

My advice: Put these aside. Work up a load your gun likes. If the load is a lot less than the 6.2-6.4 grains in your set aside cartridges, pull the bullets. If the load you work up to your liking is in the 6.2 to 6.4 grains, then there never was any need to pull them.

Most of the kabooms in Glocks are attributed to shooting jacketed bullets in their polygonal barrels that had a buildup of leading. Easily solved by 1) judicious cleaning of the lead or 2) using aftermarket barrels with conventional rifling.

Lost Sheep

ljnowell
March 4, 2013, 03:28 AM
You loaded a boatload of ammunition with an unproven powder charge. Unproven by research and unproven in your gun through diligent workup. The good new is that your 200 rounds are mid-range in one manual's data, so might be perfectly fine.

If you had started at 5.6 grains you might have found them not powerful enough to cycle the action and would have moved up in charge weight. Eventually, you might have gotten up to 6.4 and found them safe in your gun.


You are hitting on the truth of the issue right there. If the OP would read about load development he would know that you should always look for at least TWO sources of data for a particular load. Then you can decide on where to start.

Safety would dictate that he loads a few rounds a few tenths of a grain under what he has loaded now, and work his way up to it, just to be sure they are safe.

Personally I dont ever start at the bottom of load data with an autoloader. Its a waste of time in many cases as it may not even cycle the slide. I usually start midway in the load data and work my way up looking for groups and anything out of the ordinary. When I find accuracy without undue dirtyness, we have a load.

kingmt
March 4, 2013, 07:02 AM
Hate to tell you but load data from someone else is just that someone else's data. It is where they started & finished. You don't have their gun. Brass is different, chambers are different, feed ramps are different, slides, springs, & actions are all different. If you want true starting load work down to the last round that will function your slide & burns clean then add .2gn. If there is no signs of pressure then this is your start load. Now you can work up to where you see fit. If you can't do this without signs of pressure your going to have to change spring, powder, or bullet.

mgmorden
March 4, 2013, 09:04 PM
Hornady's manual (8th ed) for that bullet lists a range for AA#5 at 5.9 to 7.3gr at 1.125" OAL.

Speer (13th ed) naturally doesn't have info on the Hornady bullet but for a 180gr Gold Dot (similar bullet type) they list a range for AA#5 at 7.0 to 7.8gr at 1.120" OAL.

As you note Lee lists 6.2 to 7.0gr.

You're well within the LOWER half of listed data from 3 manuals. Personally I wouldn't hesitate at all to shoot what you have loaded.

Anmut
March 4, 2013, 10:52 PM
ljnowell - I'm getting some leakage out of where the device rotates - very very small amounts but enough to throw the load off. I've been meaning to take it apart and see *** is going on but because I load light I don't worry about it - well unless I find that there are significant differences in load data!!

Anmut
March 4, 2013, 11:03 PM
Thanks to everyone on this thread that offered sound advice - I'm keeping the rounds assembled for now but I did order a bullet puller and collet just in case.

I loaded 15 at a lighter load that I'm going to test and then work up from there. I've loaded 1000's of 44mag / 45acp / 223 so by no means am I new to this but, like anything in life, it's a learning process.

The .40 caliber's pressure and the glock's unsupported barrel and the many KB's that i've read about made my pucker factor rise enough to the point of where I thought I would seek the advice from the guys at THR.

Ya'll have done your part well - and I'll update this thread after I put some rounds down range.

ljnowell
March 5, 2013, 12:42 AM
ljnowell - I'm getting some leakage out of where the device rotates - very very small amounts but enough to throw the load off. I've been meaning to take it apart and see *** is going on but because I load light I don't worry about it - well unless I find that there are significant differences in load data!!

That leakage is coming out of the hopper, on top of the disk or charge bar, not from underneath. All AA powders leak from the lee measure. It shouldnt be affecting charge weight though. I would stick to thje data from Accurate, and no one elses, if it were me(which I do).

rondog
March 5, 2013, 12:53 AM
I take it a lot of you don't have to drive 2 hours to try out loads and experiment. That gets expensive.

Lost Sheep
March 5, 2013, 02:03 AM
I take it a lot of you don't have to drive 2 hours to try out loads and experiment. That gets expensive.
A nice drive is a nice drive. Provided the road to your range is a nice drive. If not, you have my sympathies. The road north from Anchorage is pleasant in the summer, and I/we stop for a nice breakfast on the way and make a day of it. Break some clay pigeons, punch some holes in paper.

All that is beside the point, though. Proper, safe load development is worth a drive.

I know that you know this. Not everyone reading this thread will.

Lost Sheep

higgite
March 5, 2013, 02:05 AM
Funny, my Lee 2nd Edition says in their 40 S&W section "Do not use reloads in Glocks or similar guns with chambers that do not fully support the cartridge due to the intrusion of the feed ramp." I don't believe I'd use Lee's data if I was reloading for a 40 S&W Glock, but maybe that's just me.

Trent
March 5, 2013, 10:19 AM
Funny, my Lee 2nd Edition says in their 40 S&W section "Do not use reloads in Glocks or similar guns with chambers that do not fully support the cartridge due to the intrusion of the feed ramp." I don't believe I'd use Lee's data if I was reloading for a 40 S&W Glock, but maybe that's just me.

Well, two things.

Handloaders are prone to "push" their loads.

And ... handloaders (especially new ones) are prone to being idiots who don't pay attention to the rules, particularly neck tension, proper load development, and seating depth.

One thing you ABSOLUTELY have to avoid on the little 40 S&W is bullet setback, or deep seating. A "moderate" load can go to "critical mass" in just a few hundredths of an inch on 40 S&W, ramping pressures up from ~40k to ~70K+.

Shooting ammunition out of an unsupported chamber is something I do just about every weekend. Have done so for 15 years, shooting reloads, and still have all my fingers.

Proper load development on an unsupported chamber should be:

1. Load 5 rounds each, from the starting load on up, with .2gr increments.
2. Each batch of expended casings, bag in a ziplock and label (so you can examine under good light, later)
3. Watch and FEEL for "guppy belly" as you progress. This is a sign that the pressures are starting to exceed the web strength.
4. STOP when the guppy bellies are easily detectable on 4/5 or all of ejected cartridges. (3/5 or more if shooting mixed brass)
5. Pull down remaining cartridges.

Also, try to keep headstamps THE SAME. If you are shooting mixed brass, SORT it by headstamp. Some brass is naturally harder than others, or have walls / webs of differing thickness.

Glocks have an unsupported chamber that exceeds the webbing area. You'll notice guppy bellies starting with a circular line .230" or so from the base; the thick web extends only .180" on most brands of brass. Thus the guppy belly will be a bulge that is more pronounced towards the front edge.

Pay CLOSE attention to your seating depth and tension. Load dummy rounds with that brand of brass (no powder or primers) and test chambering 2-3x each, measuring before and after, by releasing the slide from full-rear (do not guide forward). This will give you an idea of how much setback you will experience. If the setback is .010" or greater, that's bad, on a high-pressure 40S&W. You will almost always see SOME setback on repeated chamberings but it should only be .002 to .005".

The reason we test load 5x each level is because not every piece of brass is the same, not every powder meter is the same, and not every bullet will set back the same on chambering. Shooting a string of 5 each on load development will give you the minimum amount I'd consider using for load development. (I usually do 5 for each gun I own in that caliber).

The reason to bag the brass and label it separately after firing is so you can examine it closer back at home, with magnification and good light. You might see stuff you miss when casually observing it at the range.

That's my advice.

109Hammer
March 5, 2013, 10:07 PM
Man.. I'd shoot 'em.

But that's just me.

If you are REAL worried, work up a set of rounds to GET you to where you are at.

THEN shoot them once you've proven up to that point. :)

But either way, I'd shoot 'em.
+1.

OrangePwrx9
March 8, 2013, 01:10 PM
An opportunity is being missed, here. Buy a Browning HP in .40 S&W and shoot 'em up. You NEED that BHP to properly dispose of these potentially hazardous reloads. It's good to have the proper tool available when there's a problem. :evil:

Doesn't that sound better than spending an evening in the basement banging away with a bullet puller?

Catpop
March 9, 2013, 08:47 PM
An option no one mentioned is send them to Catpop for proper disposal!:neener:

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