Joe Biden's Ignorance and The Anti gun community in general.


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Sharpie443
March 3, 2013, 09:04 PM
I have been arguing with the anti-gun community off and on since this whole push for more regulations started and I am fed up with some of the things that are being said. Iím not talking about them pushing for more regulation. If that is what they feel is needed then they have every right to come out and say that. I do however have a problem with the way they portray gun owners and the complete lack of knowledge about the things they want to regulate. The frankly bigoted way they pigeonhole every gun owner is insulting. Iíve come to see this as the one biggest problem we have when it comes to swaying public opinion to our side. I spend a lot of time gun shows, shooting clubs, machine gun shoots and can normally be found hanging out in my friendís gun shop. I see quite a bit of diversity in the community but you would think we are all uneducated far right white christen supremacists if all you do is listen how the media and the anti-gun crowed portrays us.

Video on this subject.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0yREhUj1uQ

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Deanimator
March 3, 2013, 09:17 PM
There are two kinds of anti-gunner, ignorant and dishonest. Some manage to combine the two.

I have had FAR more racial slurs used against me by anti-gunners than pro-gun people.

A few years ago, an anti-gunner told me that the NRA should be "banned". When I told him, "The last time we started 'banning' organizations, we somehow misplaced 6,000,000 Jews somewhere." he replied that he "wasn't so sure that was such a BAD thing."

The history of gun control in North America is the history of violent White supremacism and the efforts of its proponents to create a "safe working environment" for themselves.

The level of racism, anti-Semitism, misogyny and homophobia that I've seen in the anti-gun movement has astonished me. They are everything they've accused gun owners of being, and much, much more.

Cryogaijin
March 3, 2013, 09:34 PM
Oddly I've had exactly the opposite experience, Deanimator, especially if you add in "anti-intellectual" to the "pro-gunners"

The major exception to this, surprisingly, would be my rabidly anti-gun, rabidly cloistered and ignorant jewish inlaws from Jersey.

I suspect this is largely a regional thing.

NMPOPS
March 3, 2013, 09:51 PM
One thing I've noticed is that Conservatives/ Pro-Gun people watch the national news be it Fox / CNN/ MSNBC or wahtever. We generally like to stay informed and actually listen to both sides. Liberal/Anti-Gun people are generally stuck in their views and refuse to watch news of any kind. That's why ratings are so low for CNN and MSNBC.

ShamboPyro
March 3, 2013, 09:56 PM
It kind of is a regional thing. People around here think I'm nuts for carrying a pocket knife and having an interest in firearms. Perhaps it's because I'm fifteen :).

SouthernBoy
March 3, 2013, 10:22 PM
Sometime back, I think it was the NRA that did some research on the educational levels of pro-gun vs anti-gun people. They found a higher level of education among pro-gunners than the anti's. Now statistics, polls, research projects, etc. all are prone to a slant when doing their "research". I was once contacted by a pollster during the early stages of the first Clinton administration. The first question pose to me was that the interviewer wanted to speak to the youngest male voter in the household. Right away anything that followed was going to be slanted.

I have no cites to offer for the study I mentioned above so please don't ask. I am not surprise with the "results" but would still question their sample population as I would for any study.

barnbwt
March 4, 2013, 01:32 AM
The level of racism, anti-Semitism, misogyny and homophobia that I've seen in the anti-gun movement has astonished me. They are everything they've accused gun owners of being, and much, much more.

My theory has always been that these folks are terrified at the thought of being trusted with firearms themselves, and transfer that notion onto society in general. "I don't trust myself with guns; why would I trust those ____ out there in the general public?"

TCB

Guy B. Meredith
March 4, 2013, 03:58 AM
SouthernBoy I'm not sure about the educational thing. The arguments against firearms ownership reek of lack of critical thinking which is in turn a sign of having been through some college or university.

Let's face it and get it out there in front of everyone--the firearms argument is the new Civil Rights battle with firearms owners fighting the same bigotry that our black citizens fought in the previous Civil Rights movement. I really feel sympathy for black firearms owners who are now having to do the same battle all over again.

Blackstone
March 4, 2013, 05:39 AM
SouthernBoy I'm not sure about the educational thing. The arguments against firearms ownership reek of lack of critical thinking which is in turn a sign of having been through some college or university.

Sad that that's the case

AlbertH
March 4, 2013, 06:21 AM
I have been arguing with the anti-gun community off and on since this whole push for more regulations started and I am fed up with some of the things that are being said. I’m not talking about them pushing for more regulation. If that is what they feel is needed then they have every right to come out and say that. I do however have a problem with the way they portray gun owners and the complete lack of knowledge about the things they want to regulate. The frankly bigoted way they pigeonhole every gun owner is insulting. I’ve come to see this as the one biggest problem we have when it comes to swaying public opinion to our side. I spend a lot of time gun shows, shooting clubs, machine gun shoots and can normally be found hanging out in my friend’s gun shop. I see quite a bit of diversity in the community but you would think we are all uneducated far right white christen supremacists if all you do is listen how the media and the anti-gun crowed portrays us.

Video on this subject.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0yREhUj1uQ
I hate to say it, but unfortunately far too many of the pro 2A posts in most any forum or reply field of articles come off as though the people writing them are RADICAL GUN OWNERS rather than from RESPONSIBLE GUN OWNERS. One must remember that 2A is just one sentence in the U S Constitution, not the entire constitution!

I was always taught that you can catch far more flies with honey than you can with vinegar. Maybe it's time to let those using that vinegar know that they are actually hurting our cause and destroying the image of the RESPONSIBLE GUN OWNER and that they should start using honey to catch those flies.

Al

Deanimator
March 4, 2013, 06:52 AM
I was always taught that you can catch far more flies with honey than you can with vinegar. Maybe it's time to let those using that vinegar know that they are actually hurting our cause and destroying the image of the RESPONSIBLE GUN OWNER and that they should start using honey to catch those flies.
Twenty plus years of experience online tells me that the other sides definition of a "responsible gun owner" is "somebody willing to stop BEING a gun owner".

I've dealt with Holocaust deniers and militant anti-gunners online. I treat them the same way, because they use the same tactics and express similar personality traits.

There isn't a one in a BILLION chance that I'm going to change Josh Sugerman's mind because I'm "nice" to him. I HAVE changed the minds of fence sitters by proving that anti-gun fanatics are liars, hypocrites and bigots.

ccsniper
March 4, 2013, 07:01 AM
One must remember that 2A is just one sentence in the U S Constitution, not the entire constitution!

But without it the rest of the constitution is fair game. If you think about it, it IS the whole constitution. It guarantees that if at any point the government wants to terminate anything else in the constitution, we can say no. Governments don't like their citizens to say no, that is why they are after any kind of gun. Because so long as the people are armed, they can say NO, I REFUSE!

Hacker15E
March 4, 2013, 08:52 AM
There is no shortage of ignorance and bigotry on both sides of the debate, unfortunately.

Akita1
March 4, 2013, 09:26 AM
It kind of is a regional thing. People around here think I'm nuts for carrying a pocket knife and having an interest in firearms. Perhaps it's because I'm fifteen :).
Way to go Sam - stay the course!.

Akita1
March 4, 2013, 09:34 AM
[QUOTE=The arguments against firearms ownership reek of lack of critical thinking which is in turn a sign of having been through some college or university.[/QUOTE]

What? I learned critical thinking at "some college or university" and it is exactly that critical thinking which allows me to separate thoughtful, reasonable positions on our favorite subject from a TON of noise. Don't knock education it until you try it - although there are institutions of higher learning that are factories of mind poison, it is up to the individual to decide what issues stand or fall on merit or weakness, respectively. If you get brainwashed, you were likely already weak-minded.

huntsman
March 4, 2013, 10:26 AM
I see quite a bit of diversity in the community but you would think we are all uneducated far right white christen supremacists if all you do is listen how the media and the anti-gun crowed portrays us.

Ahhh the magic word for the progressives diversity
what's wrong with being a White Christian, high school grad who prefers to socialize with other like minded folk?

I believe gun grabbers are educated, multicultural, diversity seeking urbanites is that stereotype wrong? So what if more gun owners are white rural Christians?

for gun culture 2.0 get off the whole mag/clip thing, yeah you may believe that it makes you seem gun smart but I knew a lot of old time gun guys who used the word clip and everyone knew what they meant and there was no need to criticize them.

Ignorance in the gun grabbers? Sure but that doesn’t bother me as much as their arrogance and lust for power.

The vid was a bit of a snoozer and I could only make to the 3min mark, I’m not sure the point it was trying to make.

JustinJ
March 4, 2013, 12:47 PM
I see quite a bit of diversity in the community but you would think we are all uneducated far right white christen supremacists if all you do is listen how the media and the anti-gun crowed portrays us.

What do you expect when Larry Pratt goes on a talk show and they talk about Obama raising a black army to attack whites and then nobody in the gun community speaks out against it? For the sane among us it is unfair but the sad truth is that there are many among us who aren't sane.

Bianchi?
March 4, 2013, 01:05 PM
I've spent quite a bit of time reading anti-gun boards, and I find it rather ironic that both sides are saying the same things about the other side; that they're "uneducated", stupid, ignorant, and part of the minority.......

beatledog7
March 4, 2013, 03:23 PM
...both sides are saying the same things about the other side; that they're "uneducated", stupid, ignorant, and part of the minority...

But the "facts" the antis claim that we're ignorant of are things they believe are facts but in truth are only what they wish were facts.

bigfinger76
March 4, 2013, 06:22 PM
SouthernBoy I'm not sure about the educational thing. The arguments against firearms ownership reek of lack of critical thinking which is in turn a sign of having been through some college or university.

I have to disagree. I too refined my critical thinking and logic skills in a university. I also was thoroughly schooled in statistics there. Unfortunately, painting higher education with that broad a brush tends to bolster the "anti" view of the pro-2A crowd as being anti-intellectual, and I can see their point.
Education is a good thing.

Billy Shears
March 4, 2013, 06:56 PM
I have to disagree. I too refined my critical thinking and logic skills in a university. I also was thoroughly schooled in statistics there. Unfortunately, painting higher education with that broad a brush tends to bolster the "anti" view of the pro-2A crowd as being anti-intellectual, and I can see their point.
Education is a good thing.

It is, but he's not wrong. Neither are you. Education is a good thing (though I think it's time we abandoned the nonsense that everyone need's a college education). I'm reminded of an essay that the late, great Robert A. Heinlein wrote for his 1981 book Expanded Universe (which is a collection of essays, articles, and short stories). In this essay, wherein Heinlein laments many of our then-present day ills, he outlines how to sail through a prestigious university and earn a bachelor's degree, all without ever learning a single useful thing, or acquiring any skills that will serve one in the job market. He emphasizes several times that at these universities, a first class education is quite available, for the student who wants one, but the point was to show that a lot of what is being taught in the schools, especially the liberal arts faculties, is useless fluff, and it's its entirely possible to study only that.

He was absolutely right. And too many students go through college unintentionally following Heinlein's program for getting an expensive four year degree and finishing school with no education worth having. They get a lot of indoctrination in feel-good causes "diversity" and "social awareness." But they're short on critical thinking skills, and have almost no exposure to differing opinions or points of view.

Millwright
March 4, 2013, 07:21 PM
Why are all these sorts of "debate" (on both sides) always confined to an inanimate machine ?

Seems to me "pro" gun advocates would better serve the cause by directing "threat issues" to the examination of the root causes causing the criminal use of a machine. Arguing the relative "threat" of various accessories and features strikes me as akin to women arguing over makeup. (We all have different ways to achieve the same objective.)

We don't have a "gun problem" in America. We do have a lot of "people problems", however. >MW

JustinJ
March 4, 2013, 07:29 PM
I have to disagree. I too refined my critical thinking and logic skills in a university. I also was thoroughly schooled in statistics there. Unfortunately, painting higher education with that broad a brush tends to bolster the "anti" view of the pro-2A crowd as being anti-intellectual, and I can see their point.
Education is a good thing.

I absolutely agree. Anti-intellectualism is the hallmark of one pandering to the ignorant. That tactic has served quite poorly political arena as of late and the gun community must divorce itself from this nonsense so as to quite alienating so many people.

Education is a good thing (though I think it's time we abandoned the nonsense that everyone need's a college education).

We can't abandon that because we never boarded it. Encouraging more people to go to school, as it is absolutely benefitial to learn more about the world one lives in, is not the same as 'everyone needs to go to college'.

Sharpie443
March 4, 2013, 08:13 PM
Well i don't know statistically which side is more educated or who pays more attention to the facts but the anti gun crowed dose seem to be more ideologically driven. Just look at the things they say. "If we could save one child wouldn't it be worth it?" It's driven by nothing but ideology and pure emotionalism. Not a shred of rational thought about how effective the regulations would actually be. That concerns me more than anything because they can rationalize doing just about anything to get to their end goal.

Billy Shears
March 4, 2013, 08:31 PM
We can't abandon that because we never boarded it. Encouraging more people to go to school, as it is absolutely benefitial to learn more about the world one lives in, is not the same as 'everyone needs to go to college'.
You may not have boarded it, that doesn't mean plenty of other people haven't. And just to make it clear, when I say everyone, I don't mean literally everyone. But I do mean something like what the author of this article says: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/national-affairs/obama-and-the-cult-of-college-why-rick-santorum-had-a-point-20120307 A lot of people out there are overselling the benefits of a college education, and downplaying the costs, and as a result, a lot of people who have bought the idea wholesale end up with crippling debt and not a lot in the way of marketable job skills. Student debt has now, for the first time, passed credit card debt.

And to get back to the point, a lot of people go into college, and rather than study engineering or hard sciences, they study a lot of fuzzy liberal arts programs, and don't learn a lot in the way of critical thinking.

btg3
March 4, 2013, 08:48 PM
...the firearms argument is the new Civil Rights battle with firearms owners fighting the same bigotry that our black citizens fought in the previous Civil Rights movement.
Perhaps only in a snapshot perspective. Fast forward -- while the demographic has increased for black citizens, I fear that it continues to decrease for gun owners. Does anyone have data over the past 50+ years for personal firearms per capita in the USA? In essence, gun owners may be heading for minority status unless we pass this part of our heritage along to the next generation. Given what the the public schools teach about guns and what the media exposure portrays, what projection might be likely for RKBA in just 1 or 2 more generations?

gym
March 5, 2013, 01:05 PM
As I read this I started thinking, the cities and states with the highest wage and best jobs, "which are also the most expensive to live in", have the most restrictve gun laws. Like NY- 3-10 grand a month to live in Manhatten, LA-,Beverly Hills, DC-most of the areas around the Capitol,Chicago, the home of the commodities exchange.
Is it that they don't trust educated people with guns, or educated people don't care for guns. If they are so smart,and command 6 figure plus salaries, why would they worry that someone is going to go crazy and shoot them?
The states with lower wages, less unions, like the Southern and Western states, have the best gun laws, "as far as pro gun". If we aren't as sophisticated and "intelligent" as they are, then how come we can get along without shooting each other as they would like us to believe.
The crime rates in those high wage states are amoung the highest in the country, it seems like an easy thing to figure out, their way doesn't work.What else is there to think about? Are more educated people more dangerous when weapons are thrown into the mix? Not to say there aren't just as many educated folks elseware, they just don't feel it's important to pay 4 times the amount of money for the same, food clothing and shelter to live in a city that has rules on how much soda you can drink, and how much fat is in your burger.
All that goes to the control of the citizens by the government, and everytime they pass more restrictive legislation it effects everyone somehow.It's simplly "you're going to do what we tell you period". The gun issue is the tipping point, as once they disarm us, then how can we possiblly be a threat to stopping such dictitorial thinking, it only requires a few men with guns, to control many without guns. This is why our forefathers stuck that 2nd ammendmant in there, for exactlly what is going on now.

Toml
March 5, 2013, 01:25 PM
Joe Biden is feigning ignorance so that others around him may appear to be reasonable, knowledgable, reassuring, competent, your favorite rock star, &tc.

JustinJ
March 5, 2013, 03:38 PM
As I read this I started thinking, the cities and states with the highest wage and best jobs, "which are also the most expensive to live in", have the most restrictve gun laws. Like NY- 3-10 grand a month to live in Manhatten, LA-,Beverly Hills, DC-most of the areas around the Capitol,Chicago, the home of the commodities exchange.
Is it that they don't trust educated people with guns, or educated people don't care for guns. If they are so smart,and command 6 figure plus salaries, why would they worry that someone is going to go crazy and shoot them?
The states with lower wages, less unions, like the Southern and Western states, have the best gun laws, "as far as pro gun". If we aren't as sophisticated and "intelligent" as they are, then how come we can get along without shooting each other as they would like us to believe.

There is no monolithic class of people in the places you refer to. No, they don't think to themselves, everybody here is highly educated and such people are not capable of handling guns. A higher proportion of highly educated people does not mean all people are such. The states you refer to tend to have extremely large urban areas with high population density and a wide diversity of economic classes, cultures and ethnicities. Such areas tend to have very high crime rates for various reasons. The states then pass draconian gun laws in response.

AlbertH
March 5, 2013, 03:58 PM
The crime rates in those high wage states are amoung the highest in the country, it seems like an easy thing to figure out, their way doesn't work.What else is there to think about? Unfortunately this is not the case, unless you are talking sheer numbers alone. If your talking per capita, unfortunately, low wages, illiteracy, crime, and killings seem to go hand in hand. The prime example is Michigan, Detroit by itself has one of the highest crime and murder rates in the country as well as one of the highest percentages poverty, BUT when you take Michigan as a whole, it is ranked 27 as far as crime goes per capita.

In reality, the higher the property tax rate and property values, the lower the crime rate for public services such as police and fire are not free.

jamesbeat
March 5, 2013, 10:05 PM
If THR members are typical, I have been pleasantly surprised at how diverse, intelligent and tolerant gun owners have been.
I have read many powerful anti- racism and ant- homophobic posts on this forum, and to say that many members advocate equality for women is an understatement.
I myself am a British immigrant, and have had many members say 'Welcome to America!' when I have mentioned it in my posts.

One thing is for sure, guns make everybody equal, and the general feel of THR is that members here heartily approve of that aspect of firearms ownership.

I think that the antis' stereotype of gun owners is so wrong that it would be funny if they didn't keep trying to take our guns away.

Guy B. Meredith
March 6, 2013, 02:38 AM
" The arguments against firearms ownership reek of lack of critical thinking which is in turn a sign of having been through some college or university."

That is a broad statement coming out of frustration. I've watched PC or agenda based thinking churned out since the "Free Speech" (as long as you read OUR script) movement. The anti gun attitude is too often rampant in cities and regions that consider themselves the seats of academia.

I'm sure there are many who make it through and gain something--I've gone to two universities in California and come out libertarian--but the noise ratio is disheartening.

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