Can't figure out!!


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USMCGRUNT_0341
March 5, 2013, 11:36 AM
First off, hello all. I have trolled these forums for tons of information for quite some time. This time I need to see if anyone has encountered the same problem.

I am loading .30-06 in a Hornady AP press with the RCBS dies. I am full length sizing my R-P headstamp cases. My problem is that some of my casings are seating in the rifle perfect, some are tight, and some just straight up become stuck. I then get the ones that will work in my rifle, but try to test them in a different rifle and it is extremely tight or again become stuck. I have calipered every single area on the case for perfect measurements. I have tried dummy rounds, just casings, and fully loaded rounds.

I do not know if it the full length sizing die is going bad (it is fairly old)? Something to do with the progressive loading of a rifle case (I know single stage is better for rifles)? I even set the sizer to touch the plate and another quarter of a turn down to try and get the maximum out of the sizing.

Has anyone ever encountered this type of problem and have any suggestions for me? Thanks everyone!

:cuss::banghead:

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c.latrans
March 5, 2013, 11:54 AM
Could be lots of things....more info? Are you mixing case lots? It can make a difference, even with like head stamps. What rifle are you shooting them in, etc. Are you lubing the inside of your case necks? If the are coming out of the die very hard, you may actually be stretching the case length with the expanding button. Give us a little more info. if you can.

A-FIXER
March 5, 2013, 11:59 AM
pictures would help but it could be your not going down far enough are you lubing the cases? Have you trimmed the brass it could be too long. What type of die are you using? Is there a bulged shoulder on you brass? await your response.

USMCGRUNT_0341
March 5, 2013, 12:01 PM
Thanks C. latrans. I am mixing case lots. I recently acquired these cases so I do not know the full history on them. If I had to guess, I'd say once or twice fired. My rifle is a Remington model 721. I have tried them in Remington 700 SPS and Mossberg (100 I believe, forget what model my buddy had). The only lube I am using is the one-shot from Hornady right before I size them.

USMCGRUNT_0341
March 5, 2013, 12:08 PM
A-Fixer, I am using the RCBS full length in a Hornady AP press. I am trimming the brass to the recommended 2.484 length. The only lube I am using is the one-shot over the entire casing. I was thinking the same thing about a bulge, but from the caliper it doesn't appear to be so.

I just had one that was stuck and tried the extra quarter turn down after the die hits the plate. The casing loaded perfectly after that. I may try to do them all over again using the extra quarter turn method. But I will see the replies I get on here first.

I will attach a pick of a round that was stuck. I painted it blue and you can see how far the sizer went. This one works well in the Remington 721 now, but I have to check the other two rifles. I am wondering if that extra "quarter-turn" made a big difference?

USMCGRUNT_0341
March 5, 2013, 12:09 PM
I keep saying "stuck." When I am saying this, I mean in the rifle and not in the sizer. Sorry for any confusion.

ironworkerwill
March 5, 2013, 12:13 PM
I had the same problem once! All that needed to be done was bump the shoulders back a couple of thou. I dont know about the progressive loader tho because the solution to the problem is to make my single stage press cam over and push the sholders back. USE LUBE when the press cams over unlubed cases will stick!

rcmodel
March 5, 2013, 12:14 PM
set the sizer to touch the plate and another quarter of a turn downMaybe you set the sizing die too tight??

If it's too tight, the press linkage can't cam over or reach full extension stop, or whatever the Hornady AP press uses to limit full ram travel.

If it isn't able to reach full stop extension, sizing will be very inconsistent, just like you are experiencing.

Maybe loosen the die and start over with adjustment?
Run the ram up, screw the die down to touch the shell holder.
Then lower the ram and screw it down just a smooch more while feeling the press handle for full stop handle movement to a positive mechanical stop built in the press, and full shell plate travel.

Harder to explain then it is to do!

You might also want to invest in an L.E. Wilson .308 case gage.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/880646/le-wilson-case-length-headspace-gage-308-winchester

It's a surefire way to set dies, and avoid tight cases without having to try every one in the rifle.

rc

USMCGRUNT_0341
March 5, 2013, 12:17 PM
Iron, not to say "Misery loves company," but I am glad to hear that it has happened to someone else. After about a month of trying every test that I can think of, I was on the verge of throwing a 1000 cases in the middle of the street :cuss:.....haha. I will wait to see if anyone else had similar experiences and then try the best route. Thanks for the response!!

ironworkerwill
March 5, 2013, 12:26 PM
like r.c. said its harder to explain than to do. make adjustments to allow the press to cam over. i'll bet it'l fix your problem.

c.latrans
March 5, 2013, 12:29 PM
I was going to say to adjust your die to where your shell holder just kisses, but RC put it better. Try that first and let us know. At least, it should make things consistent so that they all chamber the same....then if you need to micro adjust post back up and that is easily fixed. For whatever reason I think some of your cases are not fully sizing. It's not an uncommon deal. A trip through the trimmer would not hurt either....and since your cases are an unknown quantity, the old bent paper clip trick to detect thinning just above the web might be worth the effort.

USMCGRUNT_0341
March 5, 2013, 12:33 PM
Thanks for all the replies. I am going to try again resetting the die first. I will run them all through the sizer and then give them a cut (if needed). I won't be able to get at them until this weekend, but I will check back with the completed results. Thanks again!

Skyshot
March 5, 2013, 12:34 PM
Do you think there is any chance those cases were fired in a BAR or some other semi-auto with a generous chamber. You may need a small base die.

USMCGRUNT_0341
March 5, 2013, 12:36 PM
Bar,

I would highly doubt that. But one never can be sure.

fguffey
March 5, 2013, 03:34 PM
MCGRUNT, I am doing some extreme sizing, for example, 50 BMG cases, I started with adjusting the die down to the shell holder with no additional turns after contact (no load, no slack). After making the adjustment I sized a 50 BMG case using Imperial wax, the press flexed .016”, I tried sizing another case with Dillon in the can and bottle, no better. The press is an Ammo Master RCBS.

I know the case is not being full length sized to minimum length because of the gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder, again, I use a feeler gage to measure the gap. To overcome the .016” I had to lower the die 2 turns .140”, after lowering the die and raising the ram to full length size there was no gap between the shell holder and bottom of the die. After lowering the die to size the case back to minimum length I thought the die and press was going to keep the case, after lowering the ram I thought the neck sizer ball/plug was going to shear off. When things go that ugly it is not easy to look like the operator of the handle knows what they are doing.


I am surrounded with tools, tons and tons of tools and equipment, after sizing a case I do not remove the case from the ram to determine if the case will chamber, I do not find it necessary to lower the ram to determine if the press won or the case won, I measure the gap between the shell holder and bottom of the die, the part of the case that is not sized is keeping the die from getting close to the shell holder. There are some configurations that punish presses. The bottom .125” of the case head is not sized because of the shell holder deck height. The work out for the press comes when sizing the case above the bottom .125”.

It is believed the web of the case is the though part to size, understanding when the case body is sized the shoulder is moved forward, I have no problem sizing cases with modified dies, the load comes when the case fits the die body, shoulder and neck, under a load the case must make the turn at the case body/shoulder juncture and the shoulder/neck juncture. It is easier to size cases with long case and shoulder tapers, when the case body angle is reduced and the shoulder angle is increased it becomes more difficult to compress the case and or get it to flow past the shoulder.

A good lube allows the case to be sized, and at the same time allows the case to be released when the ram is lowered. I do not find Imperial a good choice when extreme sizing, I am not the fan of fighting the die and press to give me the case back.

F. Guffey

USMCGRUNT_0341
March 5, 2013, 08:32 PM
F. Guffey, thank you for the in depth response.

ReloaderFred
March 5, 2013, 09:00 PM
It sounds to me like a headspace problem. The brass, not the rifle. You're just not setting the shoulder back enough for the round to fully chamber, since the shoulder is contacting the shoulder of the chamber. Ideally, you should be setting the shoulder back .002" from what your chamber is.

Chambers vary widely, but are still within spec. You have to set up your sizing die for your rifle.

Hope this helps.

Fred

edfardos
March 5, 2013, 09:13 PM
progressive? Is the brass holder bent? I'm wondering if each slot hold the brass at the same height.

just guessing,

edfardos

witchhunter
March 5, 2013, 10:55 PM
Make sure that your cases are all trimmed to the correct length. You could be jamming some of the case mouths past the chamber....

USMCGRUNT_0341
March 5, 2013, 10:57 PM
Thanks all. After reading until I have become cross-eyed, I think it has something to do with setting the shoulders back far enough. I ordered the Wilson headspace gauge, and may borrow a Dillon one tomorrow. I should have used that from the beginning.

egg250
March 5, 2013, 11:02 PM
Your problem is that you're an 0341! Just kidding. The cases are mixed, likely fired from different rifles. Using a case that does not fit your chamber, adjust the sizing die until that case will fit.

USMCGRUNT_0341
March 5, 2013, 11:05 PM
Haha...This is true Egg. I never had a problem loading a 60 or 81mm in a tube. They fit nice and easy.

My concern is to get the rounds to fit a few different rifles. It's all gonna work out here soon.

gamestalker
March 6, 2013, 12:08 AM
It's probably that the shoulders need to be bumped back another .001"-.002". I was just working with a new rifle today and encountered the same scenario. But it's not an unusual part of the reloading process for bottle necks when setting up for a new chamber, or using new brass, as it were. What I've determined is new brass, or brass that hasn't had more than one cycle through the chamber can bind up at the shoulders or the tapered body. After the second time through that chamber, the shoulders and tapered walls should be better formed / shaped / to that chambers physical characteristics, which means they will mate more evenly. Just continue adjusting your FL die down until the brass will at least chamber for now. On the next firing cycle and trip through the FL die, you will notice a much more consistent brass to chamber fit, which will also provide for less frustration when resetting shoulder height because they will be aligned more closely with each other.

GS

KansasSasquatch
March 6, 2013, 12:46 AM
With an LNL AP you can't simply adjust the sizing die down until it sizes properly. The press doesn't like to be "over-cammed". That's from my experience anyways. I get the best results when the sizing die is ran down until it just puts a very slight pressure on the shellplate. If that won't bump the shoulder back far enough then you may have to remove material from the bottom of the die so that it can be lowered further, or you can try another sizing die. You can over-cam a bit if you're willing to size only then run all the sized brass back through the press for the other stations. Over-camming on an LNL can cause the other stations to have fairly large variations if you try to run in full progressive, in my experience. But it sounds like you're already over-camming and still having sizing issues.

rayatphonix
March 6, 2013, 06:54 AM
0341, You said you bought a Wilson headspace gage. I had a similar problem and once I got my brass to work with the gage, my problems went away. The adjustments to the die are very, very fine and once I got it worked out, I used a locking die ring so I could return to the same place every time.

Walkalong
March 6, 2013, 07:26 AM
As touched on earlier, make sure the ram is all the way up when adjusting the die down to meet the shell holder or plate.

JRWhit
March 6, 2013, 07:28 AM
Out of curiosity,I'm more of a learner than a knower, do you think your getting enough leverage with the press your using? Also could this be an issue of case hardness? Maybe resize the same case more than once or anneal. If the case is hardened enough would it flex the press rather than size the case?
Like I said, I'm more of a learner, so I'm sorta piggy backing your thread, hope it's still helpful.

fguffey
March 6, 2013, 01:31 PM
Today, 08:28 AM #27
JRWhit
Member


Join Date: September 13, 2012
Location: MO
Posts: 244 Out of curiosity,I'm more of a learner than a knower, do you think your getting enough leverage with the press your using? Also could this be an issue of case hardness? Maybe resize the same case more than once or anneal. If the case is hardened enough would it flex the press rather than size the case?
Like I said, I'm more of a learner, so I'm sorta piggy backing your thread, hope it's still helpful.



JRWhit, Yes, if the ‘your’ in your question is referring to the presses I am using. In the reloading world there is a step sequence as in instructions to follow, first fire form, then fire and neck size the next 5 firings, after the case has jumped back, sprung back or snap back or when the case is fully grown ( which ever comes first) full length size back to minimum length to start over. I do not how that works, I find it most difficult to start over after the case has been fired 6 times.

A case that has been fired 5 times has increased in resistance to being sized. Back to my press and your question, I have presses that are guaranteed not to flex, that does not mean the die is going to give me the case back after sizing, it just means the presses have the ability to overcome the case’s ability to resist sizing. I have cases that have no memory of what they were before they were fired, I have cases that have been formed and never fired that absolutely have no memory of ever having been a 30/06 case and have never been fired, like 308 W, 257 Roberts, 7mm57, 8mm57 etc..

Your question: I have Pardoner presses I do not use, because of the range of work I do on a press it would be delegated to light work, they stay in a drawer. It is unseal for a reloader to determine if the press/die sized the case before lowering the ram, most will attempt chambering first. Then the part about how much effort is required, I have no interest, for me it would be too easy to determine the amount of effort the press produces, back to the part about sizing the case and its ability to resist sizing, again, that is easy, the part I do not like is getting the die to give the case back.

Machine gun fired, if the case is whipping the press the first culprit blamed is the machine gun, “musta been fired in a machine gun”. When helping work out a problem for/with someone they insist on using their case lube, problem, they insist I prefer their case lube, when finished?. Back to the die giving the case back, not easy to look like a reloader knows what they are doing when struggle with the press when the case will not give the case back., Imperail wax then Dillon in the bottle and Dillon in the can, and me offering to return home for something that ‘MIGHT WORK?’

We are forming cases for a few wildcat/bench rest chambers this afternoon, thought about cutting up some dies to get started then settled on a plan.

F, Guffey

armarsh
March 6, 2013, 01:32 PM
If a single stage press is available, that would help sorting this out.

First, are you crimping, or is your seating die low enough for you to hit the crimp ring? It is super easy to deform the shoulder with a too-aggressive crimp.

If the crimping is not the issue, take one of the problem brass, resize it and try just the brass it in all three of your guns before proceeding.

James2
March 6, 2013, 02:17 PM
Full length sizing of brass requires the shell holder to touch the die with the casing in the die and at full up. If your setup meets this requirement, you can not bump the shoulder any more than this, unless you want to take out the die and mill .002 off the bottom end of the die with a piece of fine emery paper.

Please note that presses likely have some spring in them, and setting the die to just barely kiss the shell holder with no load on it may not give sufficient sizing. You need to assure the shell holder kisses the die when under load.

If you can get by without full length sizing, your brass will last longer, however if the brass came from a mix of arms, it is advisable to full length size it since different arms may vary some in dimensions.

The point of cam over has been mentioned. This point is important for two reasons.
1. It is just before reaching full top that the press develops maximum torque.
2. Cam over is the highest point your ram will go.

I am not convinced it is necessary to make the press cam over to full length size properly. I like to set mine such that the shell holder hits the die at top of stroke, then turn the die in another 3/4 turn. At this point the press doesn't cam over, the pressure stroke finishes just before cam over so the max torque is in effect and the shell holder strikes the die firmly. (That part in bold is what means full length sizing.)

OK, if you don't want to full length size you can use your feeler gauges to leave .007, or so, gap between the shell holder and die at full up and try some. If you need to bump the shoulder a bit more, cut the gap down till you get what is needed. When doing this the press will cam over. It is that cam over point now that determines just how far the casing will go into the die. ( reason 2. above.)

USSR
March 6, 2013, 02:22 PM
I think it has something to do with setting the shoulders back far enough. I ordered the Wilson headspace gauge, and may borrow a Dillon one tomorrow. I should have used that from the beginning.


There ya go!

Don

James2
March 6, 2013, 02:44 PM
I got to wondering about shell holders. Just how far is it from the bottom where the brass sits to the top which kisses the die? If there was variation in shell holders from company to company the difference could affect your full length sizing depending on the shell holder.

Out of curiosity, I measured all of my shell holders. I have some from several companies. Some are old and some are recent purchases. Surprisingly they were all within .002 inch. Looks like there is an industry standard in effect on this.

I looking at my 270 win sizing die, the bottom inside is tapered to a depth of about .040 before sizing would begin. The shell holders were .125 deep. So there will be about .165 of the base of the casing that does not get sized. (It was hard to get an accurate measurement on the taper of the base of the die. But .040 is in the neighborhood. Point is: some of the base does not get sized. )

hovercat
March 6, 2013, 03:21 PM
James is on the right track. Run your shell holder over a fine sharpening stone a few times. Reset the die and problem should go away.

243winxb
March 6, 2013, 05:16 PM
1. The screw in the center of the shell plate must be as tight as possible, but stlll let the plate turn. 2. The deck height at each station should be about .125". 3. The sub plate may be flexing on sizing and/or the die bushings may have slop. Order Shims from Hornady. Deck Height > http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Firearms%20%20and%20%20Reloading/th_ShellHolder1.jpg (http://s338.beta.photobucket.com/user/joe1944usa/media/Firearms%20%20and%20%20Reloading/ShellHolder1.jpg.html) http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Firearms%20%20and%20%20Reloading/th_DillonShellPlate.jpg (http://s338.beta.photobucket.com/user/joe1944usa/media/Firearms%20%20and%20%20Reloading/DillonShellPlate.jpg.html) Spray lubes may not work. Try some RCBS lube & pad.

fguffey
March 6, 2013, 05:27 PM
Today, 03:17 PM #30
James2
Member


Join Date: November 27, 2009
Location: Northern Utah
Posts: 648
The point of cam over has been mentioned. This point is important for two reasons.
1. It is just before reaching full top that the press develops maximum torque.
2. Cam over is the highest point your ram will go.



I have 3 RCBS Rock Chucker presses, not one of them cam over, they all jam-up, cram-up or lock up, all three go into a bind and get tangled up with the toggle on the bottom. All three have a maximum travel to the top, I can modify my Rock Chuckers to cam over.

Again, there was a video on YouTube, the video was taken from the top without a die installed. All the comments were blaming CHINA stuff etc.. The video demonstrated the ram at the top of its travel kicking forward, some viewers got dizzy, some passed out, none of them contacted me, worst, they did not ask, they all did the usual, they assumed. The ram kicking forward is/was caused by the linkage getting tangled up at the bottom, the tangle caused the ram to kick in one direction on the bottom and the opposite at the top.

With a die installed and a case in the shell holder the ram is not allowed to kick, I have 2 progressive presses that use the Rock Chucker, both are Piggy Back 11, one set up for small primers, the other for large primers.

Then there are cam-over presses, I have at least 6 cam over presses. All my cam over presses go past top dead center, meaning adjusting the die to the shell holder when cammed over will require the ram to go up first before it can be lowered. Cam over presses can be adjusted to bump, meaning when the press is in cam over mode the shell holder is not contacting the shell holder. All my cam over presses bump twice, once on the way up and again on the way down.

Lots of complaints about the handle falling on Herter presses, if the die is adjusted to the shell holder when cammed over the handle stays up, I have instructions for adjusting cam over presses dated 1959 and 1961.

Another cam over press is the RCBS A2.

F. Guffey

fguffey
March 6, 2013, 05:45 PM
Then there are Competition shell holder holders, 5 to the set for $45.00, I purchased a #6 set at a gun show in Mesquite TX, for $5.00, three of the 5 were off .001” each, not a problem, The Redding shell holders are designed to prevent reducing the case length from the shoulder the case to the head of the case. Then there is reducing the length of the case from from the shoulder to the head of the case for short chambers.

F. Guffey

James2
March 6, 2013, 05:51 PM
Lots of complaints about the handle falling on Herter presses,

This was certainly true on the early Herter presses. Later models had a spring loaded ball in the frame and a divot in the ram to hold the handle up.

fguffey
March 6, 2013, 06:15 PM
Today, 06:51 PM #37
James2
Member


Join Date: November 27, 2009
Location: Northern Utah
Posts: 650 Quote:
Lots of complaints about the handle falling on Herter presses,

This was certainly true on the early Herter presses. Later models had a spring loaded ball in the frame and a divot in the ram to hold the handle up.
__________________
James


James2, I have one with ‘the detent’, adding the detent was always an option.

F. Guffey

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