I need help identifying this. Is it the world's first assault rifle?


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five.five-six
March 5, 2013, 04:17 PM
When I first looked at it, I thought it was a modern reproduction of something, I am not even sure what. but after looking at the gold inlays and details I am starting to think that it is a lot older than I first thought.

Here are some photos, hopefully someone can tell me what it is.

http://imageshack.us/a/img203/1131/img0579dk.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img708/7967/img0580y.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img845/6343/img0581bx.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img594/7618/img0582kf.jpg

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gunsablazin
March 5, 2013, 04:37 PM
Is it an AR-1 ? :P

PGT
March 5, 2013, 04:41 PM
I think it was a prototype developed by that great warrior, Chingatchgook. Here's a pic with his previous iteration with the grip on the opposite side:

http://i45.tinypic.com/15s8ozp.jpg

GCBurner
March 5, 2013, 04:59 PM
Looks like a Liege, Belgium proof, the "portee garantie" means the range is guaranteed, but I don't know what range it means. Is it a shotgun? I don't see any rifle sights, but the hooked buttplate looks like it would go on a target rifle. Or maybe a shotgun custom made for someone with only one arm?

five.five-six
March 5, 2013, 06:34 PM
I will have to measure the bore but IIRC it's in the range of 54 cal, probably not a shotgun. I think there was a rear sight but it's gone missing, probably before I was born.

Curator
March 5, 2013, 07:02 PM
Definitely Belgian, maybe original 1860-ish. The pistol-grip is from that time period. There were a lot of innovators trying new designs at that time. Check the barrel and lock for maker's marks or other proof marks. More pics will help in identification.

robhof
March 5, 2013, 07:51 PM
Definitely a unique piece, I've been to many gun museums and never seen anything like that. I've seen some antique competition rifles that had pretty exotic stocks, closely resembling modern olympic style stocks. Thanks for sharing that photo and I hope someone can get you some specifics, I'd love to know the history of it.

jhvaughan2
March 6, 2013, 12:30 AM
lock up the kids! It has a pistol grip!

pitw
March 6, 2013, 08:09 AM
Wish I could help. That is most impressive.

IROCZ
March 6, 2013, 08:28 AM
I think that one is on the "Banned List".....

Mp7
March 6, 2013, 08:31 AM
very unique.

And to a collector, probably worth a lot.


Me think its very beautiful.

desidog
March 6, 2013, 01:14 PM
Definitely looks like an amputee's custom gun, given the pistol grip, short foregrip / butt-heavy balance, and the hooked butt plate.

GCBurner
March 6, 2013, 09:48 PM
Definitely looks like an amputee's custom gun, given the pistol grip, short foregrip / butt-heavy balance, and the hooked butt plate.
That was my first thought. In the movie Brotherhood Of The Wolf, a one-armed nobleman uses something similar, only it's a flintlock.

Patocazador
March 8, 2013, 09:05 AM
The world's first "Bull Pup" not the first assault rifle.

Neat.

kBob
March 8, 2013, 10:01 AM
pato,

That is not a bull pup as the action is at or forward of the pistol grip.

I think it may have been a rifle specifically for shooting from the standing position much like breech loading Shutzen rifles. Long barrel to provide long sight distance, hook to take some of the wright of the gun and hold the rifle in the correct spot, pistol grip to prevent side pressures on the stock, short fore stock to keep forward weight down and provide just enough stock to use an elbow on "hip" off hand hold.

Ich bein ein "Cracker".....just so folks know it takes a Floridian to correct a Floridian.

MCgunner
March 8, 2013, 11:14 AM
Pistol grips are for pistols. :rolleyes: Odd, I must admit, a tacticool front loader. I doubt it would sell to the kids now days, no high cap mags for it.

BHP FAN
March 9, 2013, 03:41 AM
Jefferson Herb and I had a friend with a withered, undersized left arm from childhood polio. It wasn't quite useless, it could hold something like a ramrod, but wasn't strong enough to do anything with, and it had limited movement.He favored guns like that,and had quite a few short barreled, butt heavy muzzle loaders, including a swivel barrel over and under .45 carbine.

five.five-six
March 29, 2013, 02:40 PM
Definitely looks like an amputee's custom gun, given the pistol grip, short foregrip / butt-heavy balance, and the hooked butt plate.
I sholdered it today one handed and the front sight and where the rear site would be lined right up with my eye automatically. Very natural, very balanced, almost what the snipers hide guys call NPA.

The bore is grooved but not rifled and measures some where from 60-65 caliber.

I could find no other proofs on the gun, what pictures would you like to see?

SDC
March 29, 2013, 02:45 PM
Definitely Belgian, and the "Fortee Garantie" just means "Strength Guaranteed"; are there any other marks at all, on the lockplate, or the other side? The ELG proof without the crown over it shows it was built before 1898, so it`s definitely an antique.

Busyhands94
March 29, 2013, 03:56 PM
Pistol grips are for pistols. :rolleyes: Odd, I must admit, a tacticool front loader. I doubt it would sell to the kids now days, no high cap mags for it.
Hey now! I'm 19, I'd buy it if it were for a good price! :D

Cosmoline
March 29, 2013, 04:05 PM
Never seen the like, but it does appear to be a genuine antique piece. Please take care of it! You could be holding something quite important there. I know of no earlier stocks with that design, and by the look of it someone selected a tree with the right shape. You should send some photos to the NRA's museum.

five.five-six
March 29, 2013, 06:07 PM
It would be kinda neet if it turned out to be historicly significant, of course then I would have to quash my plans to cut it down and put a synthetic stock on it, drill/tap the barrel and install a red dot.

robhof
March 29, 2013, 09:21 PM
AIEHHHHHHH!!!!!!Don't even joke about that. Had a friend in high school that had an original Kentucky/Pennsylvania rifle from the 1700's in very good condition, his father wanted to shoot it, but felt the barrel was too long, so he had it cut down, even then I knew it was a sin...:cuss::banghead::banghead::fire:

five.five-six
March 29, 2013, 09:39 PM
Forgive the lousy photo, no tripod and poor light, but I pushed the apature and shutter speed so you can get an idea of what the rifleing looks like. on the right is the head of the ramrod

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/1584/img0776kc.jpg

gunner69
March 29, 2013, 10:33 PM
I too, will go with Belguim. Nice piece for the collection or a museum.

dogrunner
March 29, 2013, 10:35 PM
It's missing the 'shoulder thingy that goes up'!!

BCRider
April 3, 2013, 05:51 PM
The fact that it so readily fell into position when shoulder one handed suggest that it was indeed built for a richer amputee.

Consider that the pistol grip would make for a far easier time of supporting the gun one hande. In particular since it appears that it was built to balance right on the pistol grip point.

For patched round ball I'm guessing that the grooving is decently effective at imparting the spin. And grooves of this sort would be MUCH easier to cut than the amount removed by proper rifling.

1 old 0311-1
April 3, 2013, 07:46 PM
First 'night scope?'

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n489/kcq1/SAA-T005x800ps.jpg

five.five-six
April 4, 2013, 11:25 AM
If I remember my history correctly, rifling was somewhat of an accident. The grooves initially intended as innovation to allow more shots fired between muzzle cleanings. someone made grooves with a twist and that's when the accuracy advantages of rifling was discovered.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I437 using Tapatalk 2

Loyalist Dave
April 4, 2013, 11:47 AM
You might want to send the photo of your rifle to the NRA, so that they can use the image next time somebody in Congress goes to whining about the evil, modern, pistol grip on a rifle of some type.

LD

raa-7
April 4, 2013, 12:03 PM
Sure, I wouldnt doubt that rifling came about in that way.According to wikipedia,they say that rifling was invented in Augsburg,Germany at the end of the 15th century,and in 1520 this guy named August Kotter,an armourer,improved on it.There's really no way to actually pinpoint when it was discovered but there's alot of good positive proof on it's known discovery.I'll bet long ago that some guy,people like us,that love to shoot,might have figured it out and just didnt get credit for it exclusively.JMHO :D

raa-7
April 4, 2013, 12:10 PM
[QUOTE=Loyalist Dave;8851652]You might want to send the photo of your rifle to the NRA, so that they can use the image next time somebody in Congress goes to whining about the evil, modern, pistol grip on a rifle of some type.

Thats a great idea,they could probably tell you everything.

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