Scope mounts and eye relief


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kac624
March 5, 2013, 11:19 PM
Hello all,

I am new here and still relatively new to firearms in general, so any help is much appreciated!

I just purchased by first rifle, a Savage Mark II GXP. It came with a 3-9x40 scope (Bushnell, I believe), and, as the rifle does not have iron sights, I'm trying to make things work with the scope.

The problem is that I can't get the scope back far enough to allow for proper eye relief. When I shoulder the rifle and look through the scope, I can't get a full FOV without uncomfortably jamming my neck forward.

So, I believe I need to get the scope back another two inches or so. The receiver is not drilled/tapped and only takes dovetail mounts, so my options are a bit limited. I found two potential solutions: a dovetail to picatinny rail adapter and an offset dovetail ring mount. Links to each:

http://www.amazon.com/UTG-Profile-Airgun-Picatinny-Adaptor/dp/B001CJ67E6

http://www.dhgate.com/p-ff8080813b21b532013b2bf2087446be.html?utm_source=GMC&utm_medium=Adwords&utm_campaign=vector-optics&utm_term=148482692&f=bm|148482692||GMC|Adwords||vector-optics|QL||&gclid=COPEoq2X57UCFY6e4AodiEwAeA

Do you think these might allow me to get the scope back enough (~2")? What other solutions might I try? Is there something I am not considering, like a problem with the scope itself or maybe issues with my cheek weld or how I'm shouldering the rifle?

One more thing, I currently have my scope rigged up in a way that I'm sure is problematic. I've laid down both rings behind the ejection port and connected them to the objective lens side of the elevation/windage dials on the scope to try and position it back farther. It's still not really adequate, but it's closer. I'd like to ask if anyone sees major problems with this setup, both for learning's sake and because I suspect I may have to rig the scope similarly even if I get one of the above-mentioned pieces to get the proper eye relief. (refer to pics to see what I mean)

Thanks again!

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ole farmerbuck
March 5, 2013, 11:22 PM
I dont know but maybe you need to have the stock cut off an inch or two.

PlaneJain
March 5, 2013, 11:26 PM
Check this option out. The 2 suggestions you have are doable, one is chinese junk, and may not hold over time. This company makes quality options:

http://www.diproductsinc.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=164826&CAT=3602

jstein650
March 5, 2013, 11:37 PM
Believe me, no one's being snarky here, but how tall are you? With most any factory stock, and standard scopes, the eyepiece bell is usually located less than midway through the pistol grip of such a stock, usually further forward. Is it possible your 'scope has a ER or extended eye relief? Some 'Scout' 'scopes are set as such.

WardenWolf
March 5, 2013, 11:39 PM
UTG's rail hardware is not just "Chinese junk". It's rock-solid. It'll stand the test of time.

Fire_Moose
March 6, 2013, 12:24 AM
Ya, I'd check if you can get a full FOV by moving you head back some...

Sent from my CZ85 Combat

kac624
March 6, 2013, 08:35 AM
Thanks for all the replies, guys.

Cutting the stock might become necessary, but I'm hoping not to have to resort to that. The guns feels fine as of now.

No problem asking about my height. But at 5'9", I'm only a bit under average. Think it could still be an issue?

The rail you suggested looks great, but my receiver isn't drilled or tapped, I only have dovetail grooves. I also need something that will extend back to get the scope closer to my eye.

And I don't think it has extended eye relief. I have to move my head forward to get a full FOV. Moving back only shrinks the view.

I'm thinking the UTG dovetail rail might be best. But what about mounting the scope like I have in the pics (both rings on the front half of the scope)? Think it's too prone to slippage?

chicharrones
March 6, 2013, 10:06 AM
No problem asking about my height. But at 5'9", I'm only a bit under average. Think it could still be an issue?


And I don't think it has extended eye relief. I have to move my head forward to get a full FOV. Moving back only shrinks the view.

I'm 5' 9" and I don't have to move my scopes back that far. That doesn't mean you don't have to, I'm just relating how it works for me.

One thing to check if you haven't already is, how does the eye relief work for you when in a prone shooting position or a bench shooting position? For me, those two positions naturally position your head further forward on the stock than if standing.

idcurrie
March 6, 2013, 10:16 AM
That scope is ridiculously far back. It's totally unacceptable. There's no way ANYONE could require that scope that far back. Even if it only had a 1" eye relief, you'd barely be on the stock...

There's something wrong with:

Your technique (do you even have a cheek weld)

-OR-

The scope

You could try replacing the scope with a quality piece.

I have a Leupold 2-7x28 rimfire on my Savage Mark 2. It works very well.

Edit: that's a bushnell 'sharpshooter' which is a $25 throw away scope made under a few different brand names. It's not even a rimfire scope. Replace it.

chas08
March 6, 2013, 10:48 AM
idcurrie said; "That scope is ridiculously far back." I have to agree! I've never seen a scope have to be pulled that far back! Something has to be wrong with either the scope or your technique! Two more inches back would put the ocular bell well past the wrist of the stock! That cant be right!

Pacsd
March 6, 2013, 12:15 PM
My guess is technique as well. Perhaps some coaching will cure the eye relief problem.

Haxby
March 6, 2013, 12:23 PM
Don't cut anything or order any parts until you decide if the scope is worth keeping.
How far away from the scope is your eyebrow, when you're close enough to get a full fov? Check that at 3X and at 9X.
If it's only an inch or two, the problem is the scope.

Doug b
March 6, 2013, 12:33 PM
Shouldn't there be a turret on the top and a turret on the right?

Bobson
March 6, 2013, 12:46 PM
That's a bushnell 'sharpshooter' which is a $25 throw away scope made under a few different brand names. It's not even a rimfire scope. Replace it.
Agreed. I'd take the whole rifle to a shop with optics, and see if they'll let you test the optics on a test rifle or plastic stock. Lots of shops are doing this now, so it shouldn't be an issue. Once you find the optic you want, have them mount it for you, based on your head position on the stock.

This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COoXVpGfXQE&list=PLLCvU1h-GrS13_iyMH1aykd0E05iagxBf&index=7) on setting up a scope probably won't solve your problem, but I highly recommend you watch it anyway.

adelbridge
March 6, 2013, 01:21 PM
Shouldn't there be a turret on the top and a turret on the right?

scope is definitely mounted upside down and no way to practically zero it. There is all kinds of wrong here that needs to be addressed before you can worry about relief. Youtube how to mount a scope, if you walk into a shop like this they are going to be biting their lips.

idcurrie
March 6, 2013, 03:01 PM
Shouldn't there be a turret on the top and a turret on the right?

Yes! The scope is installed upside down (verticle adjustments doing windage!)

desidog
March 6, 2013, 04:24 PM
With decent recoil you'll brain yourself; instead of just getting scope-eye. That is just downright dangerous.

Does the scope have any eye relief adjustment? It ought to.

Also, as per their website, didn't the rig come with the scope mounted and boresighted already?

kac624
March 6, 2013, 08:26 PM
Yes, the scope is on its side because its so far back that the windage dial interfered when working the bolt. I had the scope set up before according to how I was instructed from videos and a friend at the range and I believe it was correct. I haven't actually shot with this setup yet, I was just seeing how far back I could get it. And from the responses, I think it's good I asked before taking it to the range...

So it's either the scope or my technique. I've attached a pic of me with the rifle shouldered and my face forward enough for a full FOV. That's at 3x. It think I'm only like 2 inches off. Thoughts?

The rifle didn't come with the scope mounted. Like I said, I had it mounted normally before and got help zeroing it, but I couldn't make much use of it because I could hardly see properly when using it standing (on the bench was not as much of a problem because its easy to bring your face closer). Afterwards, I came up with the setup pictured above. I'll be sure to share it with no one else....

Again, thanks for all the help! I certainly need it....

Sun Tzu warrior
March 6, 2013, 09:22 PM
The picture in post #18 looks like about the normal eye relief. Try turning your torso about 45 degrees to the right from your target, as opposed to a right angle (90degrees)
or directly facing the target. When I shoulder a rifle, my nose is generally right above the back of the pistol grip on the stock where your thumb knuckle is in that picture. I don't think there is anything wrong with the equipment.

Caliper_RWVA
March 6, 2013, 09:40 PM
Strange problem, I always have the problem that I cannot get a scope far enough forward...

I can't see very much of your standing position in the picture, but either your body geometry is very unique or your position just needs a little work.

Position basics for standing (no sling)...

Stand with your body almost 90 degrees to the target (your chest should be basically facing the person in the next lane)

Bring the rifle up to your cheek as you shoulder it. Approx 1/2 of the buttplate should be sticking up over your shoulder.

Your firing arm should be held up about level in a "chicken wing". This deepens the natural pocket on your shoulder that the toe of the rifle butt is resting in and helps hold the rifle in place.

Your support hand should be a comfortable distance out on the stock, probably near the balance point of the rifle. The support arm should be held so your elbow is directly underneath the rifle.

Finally, lift your head up, extend your neck fully forward and drop your head down on the stock. We call this "turkey neck". Having your neck fully extended does several things: first, it gives a consistent cheek placement on the stock for consistent eye relief. Second, if keeps your head from rocking forward under recoil and hitting the scope (not such an issue with a .22, but a good habbit to develop nonetheless)

Try that out and see how it works for you. I know if I shouldered your rifle, either my cheek or my nose would be about where the firing hand thumb grips the stock. I am 6', but even most people shorter than you will end up somewhere similar.

Finally, make some time this spring to get to a Project Appleseed shoot (they are one of the sponsors of this site as well). I am an instructor with Appleseed in Mi, and I know nothing beats a weekend of instruction on how to use your rifle.

idcurrie
March 6, 2013, 10:17 PM
From that picture, it doesn't look like the rifle is tucked into your shoulder at all.

Isn't the but of the rifle right behind that drop at the end of the comb? If so, your technique is definitely the problem.

The rifle gets tucked into the pocket between the ball of your shoulder and your collar bone - a little lower I suppose. It's the soft, fleshy bit.

idcurrie
March 6, 2013, 10:18 PM
To ad, your head should not be completely verticle and upright like you are standing tall. that is not how you shoot a rifle. Maybe you need lower rings. How on earth would you ever shoot iron sights with that posture?

Why don't you try imagining that there are iron sights right along the top of the barrel and line your eye up to them. I bet you won't even be able to because your face will be pressed against the scope.

Keitha
March 7, 2013, 01:14 PM
I'm with most everyone else on this thread:
1) Re-mount the scope correctly - Rings on each side of the windage/elevation turrets and in the correct position. Rotate it 90* (* = degree) clockwise so that the windage turret is facing right and elevation is facing up. Look at other pictures of rifles with scopes and set your up to look similar.
2) Look at pictures of proper rifle holding technique. You don't want the rifle sticking out from your chest at a 90* angle. Rifle should be more like 30* - 45* across your chest. That will put your head much further forward on the stock and should be much more comfortable.
3) You should be able to make this scope work, just it is still a cheap scope. Don't expect too much out of it.

berettaprofessor
March 7, 2013, 01:26 PM
That scope is ridiculously far back.

Yeah, like about +15 here. You're doing something completely wrong and more wrong than just mounting the scope upside down.

Get some professional help in mounting this scope and for God's sake, don't cut off the stock as suggested above!

Keitha
March 7, 2013, 02:27 PM
Here are a few pictues to demonstrate "offhand" shooting positions:

greyling22
March 7, 2013, 07:20 PM
I'm with the incorrect shooting position camp. It's hard to tell from the picture, but it looks to me like your head is way too far back on the stock. Snuggle in, that 22 won't hurt you.

Inebriated
March 7, 2013, 07:57 PM
UTG's rail hardware is not just "Chinese junk". It's rock-solid. It'll stand the test of time.

My dogleg AK rail snapped in two..... I will classify UTG as chinese junk. lol

ole farmerbuck
March 7, 2013, 08:12 PM
Get another pic taken of you but from farther away. Then we'll be able to tell more.

kac624
March 8, 2013, 03:24 PM
Wow, I feel a bit foolish, but I guess that's how you learn.

Thanks so much for all the help. I think my best bet is to seek out some professional help or training. I was planning in it eventually anyway, might as well get to it.

joeschmoe
March 8, 2013, 03:56 PM
It also seems like that stock may be way too long for you. Combined with the way your holding it is putting your eye way too far from the action of the gun.
The answer is to bring you closer to the action, not bring the scope back more.

Correct your stance and maybe shorten the stock.

Sun Tzu warrior
March 10, 2013, 12:56 AM
KAC, There are no stupid questions, it is only stupid not to ask questions.
Glad you asked, before destroying your equipment. I suspect there are a large number of folks arming themselves who have no prior experience. At some point every experienced person, had no experience! It is good you are taking responsibility for your own well being.
(self defence) Get some training, there is no shame being a newbie. At some point everyone was a newbie! Soon you will be able to share the knowledge you learn, with someone else. That's what makes the world go round! Good Luck!

Geno
March 10, 2013, 09:50 AM
I use the following BKL mount on my Savage:

http://www.bkltech.com/BKl-1-6-Screw-Unitized-Dovetail-Mount-p/bkl-260.htm

Eye relief is no problem now. 8^)

Geno

MrCleanOK
March 10, 2013, 10:18 AM
Kac624, if there is an Appleseed event going on near you, that would be an excellent place to learn all the right habits.

http://appleseedinfo.org/

If that's not an option, find somebody truly knowledgeable to help you set up your optic and learn to shoot your rifle. I'm not trying to poke fun at you, but you are messed up like a football bat right now (which is to be expected for a new shooter). You obviously have a desire to learn, so with the right mentorship I think you'll be just fine.

kac624
March 11, 2013, 11:14 AM
Thanks for the encouragement! There are no Appleseed events near me, but I have found an NRA sponsored rifle training course in a few weekends that I imagine will be helpful. I'll let you know how it goes!

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