Which of these 2 rifles has seen more Combat?


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TrickyDick
March 6, 2013, 11:24 PM
Which of these 2 rifles has seen more combat overall. (i.e. wars, conflicts, engagements, etc. NOT total number of them used) the two options are the Mosin Nagant, in service since 1891. Chambered in 7.62x54R, and only the variants in that caliber will be considered. the 2nd option is the AK-47/AKM, in service since 1947. Chambered in 7.62x39, and only variants in that caliber will be considered, so NOT AK74's,galil's,PSL's,Vepr's, etc.

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-v-
March 6, 2013, 11:38 PM
Here's a better question, in what conflicts since the 1959 has the AKM not been involved in? I'd say I would be hard pressed to name any.

PGT
March 6, 2013, 11:44 PM
based on how many Ruskies died in WWII carrying the Mosin, chances are good the Mosin has seen more combat. Hands down, the AK has delivered more combat however. Heck, the design of the AK was prompted by WWII and how outdated the Mosin was proven to be.

Ehtereon11B
March 7, 2013, 12:29 AM
The AK family by far. With all the variants produced by Russia, China, Romania, Pakistan, and every other country it is estimated that there are about 70 million in service.

jim243
March 7, 2013, 12:40 AM
Which of these 2 rifles has seen more combat overall.

The controlling word here is SEEN. While there may be more AKs produced, it did not come out untill after WWII and saw no combat during that war.

Actually I would think that the SKS saw more combat than the AK eventhough we think of the AK as the bad Axx commie rifle.

Jim

2zulu1
March 7, 2013, 01:49 AM
The M-N has seen more combat than the AK, by a very large margin, from the Czars to Stalin. Add up all the Middle East, Iraq, Afghanistan and Vietnam wars, et al, that AK has been in and it doesn't come close to the combat usage of the M-N used by the Russian and Soviet armies.

allaroundhunter
March 7, 2013, 02:10 AM
Mosins have also been used by insurgents and rebels in all wars and conflicts that the AK has been in....And then the ones prior to the AKs development.

Bohemus
March 7, 2013, 04:52 AM
Here's a better question, in what conflicts since the 1959 has the AKM not been involved in? I'd say I would be hard pressed to name any.
Falklands/Malvinas?

And to OP: Using approach "just one rifle in wholle conflict is enough to count it" then Mosin - still used in small scale in A-stan.

Kachok
March 7, 2013, 05:10 AM
Number of conflicts I would say the Mosin since it is older, for volume of fighting the AK by a huge margin.

cal30_sniper
March 7, 2013, 11:15 AM
Hard two increase volume on the main rifle of one of the largest nations in two world wars...

The mosin has seen more combat, the AK has seen a lot of small scale conflict.

Steel Horse Rider
March 7, 2013, 12:43 PM
The M-N was also used as the primary weapon by both sides in the Russo/Fin war.

LeonCarr
March 7, 2013, 01:13 PM
My vote goes to the M-N, beat the AK into service by about 56 years.

In the Falklands both sides had the FN FAL, I believe the Brits had the Inch Pattern FAL and the Argentines the Metric.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

BSA1
March 7, 2013, 01:29 PM
True wars in size, numbers of nations involved and participants hands down the Mosin Nagant.

For the Mosin;
1904 -1905; Russo-Japanese War
1914 -1918; WW1
1917 - 1918; The Russian Revolution
1939 - 1940; The Winter War
1941 - 1945; WW2

In addtion it was used both against and by Finland, in the Spanish Civil War and during the Cold War, from Korea and Vietnam to Afghanistan and along the Iron Curtain in Europe. Virtually every country that received military aid from the Soviet Union, China, and Eastern Europe during the Cold War used Mosin–Nagants at various times.

The AK while undoubtly widely exported and adopted by many small nations the size and numbers of participants are far, far smaller. Largely through use of television has made it appear likeit has been more commonly used.

Sav .250
March 7, 2013, 02:08 PM
That information will be a benefit......why?

TrickyDick
March 7, 2013, 02:29 PM
remember, the amount of rifles used is irrelevant. its which model has been in more skirmishes of all sorts. read the OP.

Cosmoline
March 7, 2013, 02:34 PM
The AK's have been around in most if not all brush wars and insurgencies since the 60's. But while there have been plenty of massacres in places like the Congo, the actual combat is intermittent, not continuous.

The Mosin-Nagant on the other hand saw extensive service in the two worst wars in human history, along with many smaller wars of incredibly intensity like the Winter War and the Korean War. Remember that the big wars include innumerable skirmishes, ambushes, incursions, etc. So all the stuff that happens in a brushfire war also happens in a big war. Plus the enormous History Book battles.

In the end there's not much of a contest.

Float Pilot
March 7, 2013, 04:59 PM
The AKs have been in constant combat use in places like Africa, Central America , the middle-east, various pacific island nations and South America since the around 1959-1960 until the present. SO at least 54 years of constant front line use, spread around the globe.

In many of those places, you do not see any or at least very few Mosins.

AethelstanAegen
March 7, 2013, 05:19 PM
With service in both World Wars (and we should note that the worst and vast majority of ground combat in WW2 occurred on the eastern front), the Mosin-Nagant easily surpasses the AK. The AK has been in a great number of conflicts as well but the sheer scale of those world wars dwarfs the AK's combat even without factoring in the other wars the M-N was in before the AK existed.

JustinJ
March 7, 2013, 05:54 PM
Given the scope of WWI and WWII it's hard to believe though that the AK could have the Mosin beat.

Fishbed77
March 7, 2013, 06:17 PM
Given the scope of WWI and WWII it's hard to believe though that the AK could have the Mosin beat.

Indeed. The Mosin is the clear winner due to the scope of combat on the Eastern Front.

You could add together every other conflict since WWII, and they still would not equal the bloodshed of that theater of operations.

-v-
March 7, 2013, 08:37 PM
Falklands/Malvinas? Damn...You got me there.

I guess the question is just how small do we go down as far as conflict. If we include any situation where two armed parties with rifles shot at each other with rifles of some sort, I'd say AK. I would even say you would be hard-pressed to find even a WEEK between 1960-present day when two parties were not actively shooting at each other with AK-variants. Heck, probably as you're reading this, there's probably a few dozen firefights actively going on in Africa and the Middle East using the AK right this moment. If we're only considering large-scale declared wars, then yes the M-N wins. But, there was that pesky interwar period between WW1 and WW2 when no one was actively shooting at each other non-stop.

My other suspision is the MN is not as widespread as the AK. While the MN saw service in Korea and Vietnam, I am not sure how many if any MN participated in say the Sino-Soviet conflict in the 1970's, Grenada, Various brush wars in South America. While MN have popped up in both Iraq and Afganistan, I would say the 99%+ of the volume of small arms fighting is done with AKs of some sort.

Again, depends what sort of metrics we want to use to gauge this.

RustHunter87
March 7, 2013, 10:50 PM
Africa...

MCgunner
March 7, 2013, 11:06 PM
hands down AK. The soviets supplied every anti-western country in the world with 'em and they're all over the third world shooting in hot wars even today, from Africa to the middle east to South America 67 years after adoption by the USSR.

splattergun
March 7, 2013, 11:15 PM
Mosin used primarily by Commbloc countries during and shortly after WWII. AKs used in nearly every international and civil conflict around the world since inception, often by both sides.

Definately the AKs.

Steel Horse Rider
March 8, 2013, 12:02 AM
I eould venture that the Mosin has been used in nearly all the communist supported conflicts that the AK was used in. Even the dearly departed tyrant Chavez had units parading with M/N's.

The-Reaver
March 8, 2013, 12:32 AM
The mosin has been around a lot longer, but been seen in almost every battle field the AK has. My vote goes to the Mosin just based on age and ease of access.

TrickyDick
March 8, 2013, 11:30 PM
i think alot of people forget that just about every conflict involving the AK, the M/N was there with it.... I would go with M/N

Deus Machina
March 9, 2013, 05:52 AM
Agree with Tricky Dick and and all the ones like that.

Very few wars since WW2 have been between solid standing armies with well-equipped troops. I doubt there's a single one that hasn't used the AK, but these scrabble-up fighters use whatever's around, and there's not a country on this planet without Nagants that could wind up in their hands.

Kachok
March 9, 2013, 02:27 PM
While the Mosin has seen it's fair share of fighting remember the AK is still the hot ticket item for every violent bad guy group across the globe and has been for many many years now, if you start doing the body count on the numerous and endless wars all across the middle east, Korea, Vietnam, tribal wars in Africa, Chechnya, communist factions/drug cartels in south America, and absolutely countless skirmishes across the globe very often the AK being the standard rifle on both sides I think it is safe to say that the AK has seen more violence then any other firearm ever invented.
To look at it in another perspective there were 37 million MN rifle made, in contrast there were over 75 million AK47s made, supposedly the total made around the world (counting knockoffs) exceeds 100 million but still trying to verify that number, the Mosin and all bolt actions became very obsolete as a main battle rifle when the AK came about and has been a "leftover" military rifle since then. AK for the win absolutely no doubt about it.

2zulu1
March 9, 2013, 06:00 PM
While the Mosin has seen it's fair share of fighting remember the AK is still the hot ticket item for every violent bad guy group across the globe and has been for many many years now, if you start doing the body count on the numerous and endless wars all across the middle east, Korea, Vietnam, tribal wars in Africa, Chechnya, communist factions/drug cartels in south America, and absolutely countless skirmishes across the globe very often the AK being the standard rifle on both sides I think it is safe to say that the AK has seen more violence then any other firearm ever invented.
To look at it in another perspective there were 37 million MN rifle made, in contrast there were over 75 million AK47s made, supposedly the total made around the world (counting knockoffs) exceeds 100 million but still trying to verify that number, the Mosin and all bolt actions became very obsolete as a main battle rifle when the AK came about and has been a "leftover" military rifle since then. AK for the win absolutely no doubt about it.
I couldn't disagree with your more. The AK has never seen combat on the scale of WWI and WWII, 3/4 of the German army was on the Eastern front during WWII. The Eastern front in in WWII was ~1800 miles wide, the siege at Leningrad lasted 900 days. The Eastern front was the largest and bloodiest confrontation in human history with the loss of ~10.6 million Soviet soldiers, yet there were close to 7 million Soviet soldiers in uniform in 1945.

During a 15 day period in 1942 there were ~340 trains supplying ammunition, all types, to the front, those numbers work out to 8200+ tons/day.

The AK has never been subjected to the sheer magnitude and intensity as was witnessed at Leningrad, Stalingrad, Kursk and the drive to Berlin.

Simply because the AK has has been manufactured in larger numbers than the Moisin doesn't mean it's been used more. Start cranking out the combat numbers and the AK doesn't come close to the Moisin usage, and we haven't even included WWI and the other Russian/Soviet wars.

Deus Machina
March 9, 2013, 10:39 PM
Not to mention that the Mosin Nagant was standard issue for most of Stalin's reign, including his purges.
Not sure that's considered combat, though.

Cee Zee
March 9, 2013, 11:00 PM
Both world wars were massive in scope compared to any other war in the history of man. Nothing else comes close. The Soviets had 27 MILLION casualties in WWII. Only half of those (only?) were soldiers but think about how many of those soldiers were carrying MN's. And then there was WWI. The Russians had about 3.5 million casualties in that war. But they were far from being the only country using the MN.

The plain fact is that aside from the Chinese Civil War nothing since WWII has produced massive casualties. And that Chinese War ended long before the AK became standard fare for the communists. And since many of the Chinese were fighting against the commies it's pretty unlikely they had any AK's.

I'd venture to say that the number of casualties inflicted by the MN would be at least 10 times as high as the AK has produced and possibly as much as 100 times as high. It's a massive divide with the AK far on the short end of that stick. Name a single war that produced the kind of casualties from WWII where the combatants used the AK. It can't be done because it hasn't happened. Sure there have been some devastating wars but nothing, I repeat, NOTHING compareseeer to what happened in WWII. And the country with the most soldiers involved by far carried the MN. The same is true in WWI. The AK47 doesn't come anywhere near the total number of MN's used in battle.

Kachok
March 9, 2013, 11:43 PM
Not to mention that the Mosin Nagant was standard issue for most of Stalin's reign, including his purges.
Not sure that's considered combat, though.
No that is not combat, that is genocide, and he usually used starvation to kill rather then wasting bullets.
I lived in Russia for years, the Russians have the utmost respect for Lenin they call him grandpa, there is no such love for Stalin, they hardly mention him, kind of like how we don't talk about the Carter years much.
Granted the battle for Stalingrad (Leningrad/Saint Petersburg) was one of the most intense battles in human history, but put that few years plus a few small wars up against the decades of continues conflicts the AK has seen all over the world and the AK trumps everything else. Today as we speak there are wars/revolutions being fought in several countries with the AK as the weapon of choice on BOTH sides.
BTW Germany lost 3.5 million soldiers in Russia, even if every one of them had died as the result of a Mosin (Russia had several other issued firearms as well, not to mention tanks and artillery) I would still say the AK holds a sizable advantage. It is currently estimated to be responsible for aprox 250,000 deaths a year with no major wars going on. It is indeed an overly efficient tool of death in the wrong hands :(

twofifty
March 10, 2013, 01:35 AM
I did a quick wiki browse for the major battle rifles used in the 20th century:

They are listed first showing the numbers built, then the rifle model, then the number of countries that are know to have used it (in battle, for familarization trg., etc) no matter how few or many were on hand.

As expected, the AK-47 and the Mosin-Nagant win the numbers produced sweepstake.

75 mil AK-47 93 countries
37 mil Mosin-Nagant 43 countries

17 mil Lee-Enfield SMLE 37 countries
15 mil SKS 42 countries
14.6 mil Mauser K98 29 countries
10.2 mil AKM 90 countries
10 mil M-16 74 countries

6.5 mil M1 carbine 60 countries
6.2 mil M1 Garand 29 countries
5 mil AK-74 26 countries

2 mil FN-FAL 88 countries
1.5 mil M-14 24 countries

? HK-G3 73 countries

Cee Zee
March 10, 2013, 01:57 AM
Granted the battle for Stalingrad (Leningrad/Saint Petersburg)

Surely you aren't suggesting that Leningrad and Stalingrad are the same city, are you? It seems that way. Of course St. Petersburg is Leningrad's current name but Stalingrad is a long way from that city.

BTW no one said the measure of which rifle had "seen more combat" was determined by how many people were killed by the rifle. All those Russians were carrying MN's for the most part in WWII. Or at least a large percentage of them are. And you seem to have ignored WWI in this conversation not to mention the fact that both sides used the MN in the Winter War. In fact there are a great many wars that included the MN as a common weapon for the troops. It dates back to 1891. Two Russian Wars with Japan, the Finnish Civil War, and the Communist Revolution all the way up to the Iraq War - the MN has been in all those conflicts and many, many more besides including the two great wars. Those 2 wars alone were so much bigger in scale that it is staggeing

Also a lot of the deaths attributed to the AK in recent decades have also been more about genocide than combat.

The MN was one of the most common rifles in both World Wars and it has factored into many major conflicts in the 130 years it's been in service. From Korea, to Turkey, to Cambodia, to Poland, etc. etc. etc. it's a rifle that has seen a LOT of combat. There's just no way the AK47 could have seen as many fire fights.

Also I have to question the validity of the numbers listed here. I'm sure they were found by the poster but the person that put the list together may not have had the facts straight. For one thing I've heard there more AK's produced than are listed. Also I've seen other numbers like 17.5 million 91/30's produced during WWII for the largest army ever assembled. Yes there were other rifles but the MN was the primary rifle.

Kachok
March 10, 2013, 03:29 AM
No, confusing name changes over the years, just poking fun. Stalingrad was Tsaritsyn and is now Volgograd. Leningrad was Petrograd and is now Saint Petersberg, love how they do that depending on the political climate LOL

WaywardAce
March 10, 2013, 08:11 AM
The Mosin has seen combat from the Victorian era until today. The AK 47 has seen combat from the late forties until today. Mosin for the win ..... it's an easily answered question.

BulletArc47
March 10, 2013, 08:40 AM
Hmmm pretty tough question. Now I'm not fully studied in the complete history of either of these two fine weapons, but my vote goes to the Mosin Nagant for its sheer service life; hell I'm pretty sure the insurgents in Afghanistan are using Mosin Nagants right now.

Skyshot
March 10, 2013, 11:32 AM
Mosin, two world wars. The AK has been limited to regional conflicts,even though every army has them.

jaysouth
March 10, 2013, 12:48 PM
Grossly hijacking your thread:

The MN and its many variants in the hands of Vietnamese peasants working fields and going about their daily lives shot down as many multimillion dollar US planes as did their ground to air missles furnished by the Russians.

Cee Zee
March 10, 2013, 06:48 PM
They shot down more than a few helicopters with the MN but planes? I would have to see proof of that. I know there were the slow and low flying planes but they weren't going to shoot down any B-52's.

Kachok it's amazing that people in those cities sometimes still want to use the different versions of their names too. I have some friends that live in St. Petersburg and it's a whole other way of life than what we know. I came close to going over there to work for a while but I didn't. My wife convinced me I was too old and my health wasn't good enough for such a strenuous place to live and she was probably right.

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