[AlbertH]

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2013/03/07/police-teen-shot-in-face-during-horseplay-with-gun/

Don't let the word Detroit in the link fool you because this happened in rural western Michigan.

Now if these teenagers would have had taken gun safety classes this tragedy may have been avoided.

Al

[Godsgunman]

Sounds like some of Americas best and brightest. Before that they were probably sticking their fingers in the light sockets just to see what would happen.

[Robert]

Approach this from the safety and training angle and it will stay open. Otherwise it is just another case of people doing stupid things, and that would be off topic for THR.

[longdayjake]

Funny that attempted manslaughter is even a charge. The whole premise behind manslaughter is that you didn't purposefully do it. So you attempted to accidentally kill someone? Weird.

[45_auto]

Now if these teenagers would have had taken gun safety classes this tragedy may have been avoided.

You really believe that a gun-safety class would have any effect on an 18 year old stupid enough to point a loaded gun at someone's face?

Maybe if you just tell them that drugs are bad, and teenage sex leads to unwanted pregnancies in that same class, you could solve all those problems at the same time.

Always remember that half the people out there are below average in intelligence.

[Akita1]

You really believe that a gun-safety class would have any effect on an 18 year old stupid enough to point a loaded gun at someone's face?

Maybe if you just tell them that drugs are bad, and teenage sex leads to unwanted pregnancies in that same class, you could solve all those problems at the same time.

Always remember that half the people out there are below average in intelligence.
Yes, to an extent. Understanding that the frontal lobe is not fully developed until the 20's, logic is not part of the conversation so experience HAS to be the measuring stick. I taught my kids at 7/8 yrs how and, more importantly at that age, how NOT to handle firearms. They have taken firearms safety courses before 10 yrs and will take further training as they age. Yes, morons will be morons but training and experience will greatly mitigate the risk.

[AlbertH]

Obviously some of you have the DESIRE TO TURN THIS off topic in order to squelch the fact that there is INDEED a NEED for some type of Handgun safety classes....Not everyone is fortunate enough as you or me to have grown up with weapons in the house or had parents who taught us proper gun safety.....

What are you afraid of, an armed public that knows the proper handling of weapons is far more dangerous to the government than a bunch yahoos who mix guns n booze

[Carl N. Brown]

I wonder about the history of these kids with skateboards, cars, knives, matches, anything else dangerous.

I was taught from the age of six to treat all firearms with the respect due a lethal weapon; especially the unloaded ones.

That means no horseplay.:banghead:

Horseplay with a gun is stuck-on-stupid reckless endangerment. "Funny that attempted manslaughter is even a charge." I suspect sufficiently reckless behavior would get me an attempted manslaughter charge around here.

I suspect these kids were raised by TV shows like "Jackass" rather than by parents.

Added: to Albert-- I think universal gun safety classes could create the kind of positive peer pressure to reign in some of the reckless fools. We had a couple of young adults and a underage juvenile get in trouble locally when they target practiced w/o proper backstop; bullets crossed a road and endangered homes on the other side. Universal safety training cannot hurt.

[22-rimfire]

I would have to know the kids involved before I could make any serious comments. Guns and horseplay do not mix. I think the parents probably were a bit remiss in their safety training, but when you get a bunch of kids together, the herd mentality seems to prevail.

[dragon813gt]

18yo with a handgun? I couldn't purchase one until I was 21. So how did the 18yo come into possession of the handgun? There is more to the story that I'd like to know.


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[788Ham]

I've also seen some 45 year olds that shouldn't have been in possession of hand guns , social mentality comes into play here, as well as ignorance!

[Fryerpower]

18yo with a handgun? I couldn't purchase one until I was 21. So how did the 18yo come into possession of the handgun? There is more to the story that I'd like to know.

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Depends on the State. Tennessee is 18 to own, 21 to get a handgun permit that allows you to carry it loaded.

I do think that gun safety classes should at least be optional in school. Too bad they aren't even OFFERED!

Jim

[InkEd]

I am sorry but at that age it is an example sheer stupidity. ANYONE over the age of 12 years old (probably a HIGH figure) knows not to point the business end of a gun at something unless you plan to shoot it. Also, I feel that it is ridiculous that their are not additional charges involved for that idiot.

Rather than all this b.s. "common sense" gun control laws that politicians want to inflict on law-abiding citizens, why not focus on some REAL problems. For example, that these people were probably able to graduate beyond the 5th grade while clearly being morons.

IMHO "common sense" is not too "common" anymore. Parents (NOT schools) need to step-up and raise their children properly. (FWIW I'm not just talking about gun-related issues.)

Lastly, whether you grew up in an environment with or without firearms, anyone that has seen TV or movies in the last 25 years should know at least how to load/unload a pistol.

[buck460XVR]

You really believe that a gun-safety class would have any effect on an 18 year old stupid enough to point a loaded gun at someone's face?


Do we even know for sure the folks involved didn't take a hunter/gun safety course at some point? Article mentions nuttin' about this. If they hunt, don't they need to take one in Michigan before purchasing a license?

NDs happen to many folks that have had some form of gun safety and those that handle firearms everyday. Look at the amount of news articles concerning ADs/NDs involving LEOs. As 45_auto implied, all the safety courses in the world don't mean squat if you don't follow the basic safety rules given in them.


Article is very vague, and gives me too little info to make any judgement other than they violated at least two of the basic safety rules. Hope the 16 yr old comes outta this okay.

[scaatylobo]

I was born and lived in NYC and as we all know that is the center of anti-gunism [ is there such a word ] in this part of the nation.

I was taught to never play with guns,and took one from a friends hands as he was showing me his dad's HIDDEN Walther PPK.

He was trying to load it and I knew better at the age of 13 ,AND having never been around guns.

Fast forward to 1982 and I was sworn in as an LEO with a CCW that I had for 5 years and a hunting license that I had for 10 years.

The NRA Eddy the Eagle program is actually available to all school aged children and is NOT taught in schools on purpose.

The purpose is scary.

To not teach children how to handle a gun,and what to do if you come across one - the very idea screams YES - DO THAT FOR THE CHILDREN.

SO, ponder if you will the reason our "representatives' are not doing that.

[Sav .250]

Hard to have compassion for such a stupid act!

[USAF_Vet]

This happened not too far from where I live. I haven't heard anything about it locally yet.

Having the option of gun safety classes in schools would be nice, but it doesn't push their agenda. The antis don't want people to know how to handle guns safely, so they can push gun control when bad things happen through sheer ignorance, like this.

[radar1972]

I've never had a formal gun safety course in my life, but my parents instilled common sense in me as I grew up. And I applied common sense to the handling and use of any firearm I ever came in contact with.

I handled & shot rifles and shotguns at an early age. Did not own a handgun until I was in my 30's. Then I taught my kids how to respect and appreciate what a firearm is capable of doing... and how to handle it safely.

Bottom line: Too many kids today have absolutely no positive parental influence in their lives.

[Cosmoline]

Gun safety has become far too politicized. It should be a given, and we should be training every single American how to be safe around firearms. Obviously there are landmines in this issue because the antis love to use it for leverage, but for a nation of gun owners we are terribly unsafe with them. Training really needs to be a given when you buy a firearm. I'm not saying a mandate by the government, but something we should all be pushing harder to make happen voluntarily.

You don't have to look far on youtube to find gross safety violations from four rules violations to the classic "give the girlfriend a magnum without telling her" ones. A lot of gun owners need a swift kick.

[12many]

I agree with Cos. I am amaze at how many freinds do not teach their kids gun safety. It is almost like gun is a bad word. I teach safety for guns just like for fire, cars, strangers, knives and bike riding. Guns are out there and they are dangerous unless trained.

I place some of the blame on the schools and the zero tolerance. If kids say gun or make a toy gun they are suspended in most schools so parents do not even want to raise the topic out of fear that the exposure will cause the topic to be discussed at school or toy gun play to occur at school.

I don't know how the world got so messed up.

[General Geoff]

Gun safety has become far too politicized. It should be a given, and we should be training every single American how to be safe around firearms.

It should be part of required public/private school curriculum. Firearms are a deeply embedded part of our nation's heritage and culture, yet a large portion of young adults have never even touched a gun, let alone fired one.

[JayBird]

Obviously some of you have the DESIRE TO TURN THIS off topic in order to squelch the fact that there is INDEED a NEED for some type of Handgun safety classes....Not everyone is fortunate enough as you or me to have grown up with weapons in the house or had parents who taught us proper gun safety.....

What are you afraid of, an armed public that knows the proper handling of weapons is far more dangerous to the government than a bunch yahoos who mix guns n booze

Of course there is a need for people to take some type of gun safety class. I am all for that. As long as it is not required to do so to purchase a gun. As that would be an infringement.

[MedWheeler]

This is why I believe in firearms education, and beginning early.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=704941

[AlbertH]

18yo with a handgun? I couldn't purchase one until I was 21. So how did the 18yo come into possession of the handgun? There is more to the story that I'd like to know.


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It is legal in Michigan for an 18 year old to buy a handgun from a private seller. You need to be 21 to purchase from an FFL and you need to be 21 to apply for a CPL and BTW, Michigan is OPEN CARRY.

I never had the opportunity to ask whether it is legal to remove the encased unloaded weapon once you get out of your vehicle, load it in a public place without brandishing it (illegal) so you can legally open carry it.

[Al Thompson]

It should be part of required public/private school curriculum.

Or perhaps like Driver's Ed, if there is still such a thing.

[22-rimfire]

AlbertH: I think that most of us support firearm safety training. You don't need to take some class. But I think it would be a great idea to teach basic gun safety as part of the high school cirriculum or some sort of after school seminar (for free). They teach sex ed. Anyway, that is where it stops.... most of us do not support mandatory government sanctioned safety training to own or buy a firearm.

People do stupid stuff regardless of age. Loading a firearm "in public" is not brandishing in the normal sense.

[JFtheGR8]

I've said before that public messages about gun safety on TV and billboards would not be a bad thing. Just how to pay for such a service and who would guide the program would be up for debate. Antis would want to make any messages anti-gun and want gun owners to pay for them. Public awareness would be a key to gun safety for the populace. Like stated earlier though: morons will continue to be morons regardless.


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[bikerdoc]

Bottom line: Too many kids today have absolutely no positive parental influence in their lives.

Yup, they will blame anything but themselves. Dinner table tradition of teaching life values in all area's, including gun safety is a lost art.
Tonight I will bring up this story to the grand kids and I will bet they will respond that all involved were stupid.

[Baron_Null]

18yo with a handgun? I couldn't purchase one until I was 21. So how did the 18yo come into possession of the handgun? There is more to the story that I'd like to know.


Federal law only restricts handgun ownership for anyone under 18 in terms of age. It is, however, illegal for a FFL to sell a handgun to anyone under 21, but it is still perfectly legal to buy a handgun in a private sale or receive one as a gift.

Furthermore, states each set their own individual laws as to the age of handgun ownership. My state, for example, has decided that at 18 I am too irresponsible to own a handgun, but a year later at 19 I will be a completely responsible individual with no criminal thoughts.

Sorry for going off-topic, but it really annoys me whenever I see anyone say with any sort of certainty that you're only allowed to own a handgun after you turn 21, since people are likely to keep spreading the misinformation around.

[doc2rn]

I got chime in here because it said it was a .22 and we all know that is not a lethal round because its less than the .380 accepted minimum! So it couldn't be attempted manslaughter...
Ya can't fix stupid!

[Trent]

Ignorance and carelessness.

The two cardinal sins.

[G'dale Mike]

I didnt read the article but read the first 5-6 posts. but i will say there is an interesting dynamic in this day and age.
First, why was the firearm accessable to the teenager?
Second, why would anyone point a firearm at someone else?
I can relate that as a child, growing up in the 60's, my father kept all his firearms in his bedroom closet. All 4 of his children KNEW that you NEVER touched the doorknob to that particular closet, much less, open the door. For that matter, my parents bedroom was off limits , invitation only!
Is this Darwinian? Part of De-Evolution? After years of dumbing down the educational system, years of rewarding and praising for no particular reason, no self control taught, imposed or expected, why are young people so oblivious to cause and effect? And liberals will blame the gun, not the actions and their failed policies which have propagated this type of behavior,,, agh! Off the soapbox,,,

[dragon813gt]

Sorry for going off-topic, but it really annoys me whenever I see anyone say with any sort of certainty that you're only allowed to own a handgun after you turn 21, since people are likely to keep spreading the misinformation around.

Where did I say with ceartinty that you had to be twenty one? I said I couldn't buy one. In my state there is also a seperate form that goes to the state police when you purchase a handgun. So almost all, since there were handguns out there before this policy was started, sales have to go through a FFL. No one here wants a handgun registered in their name to end up being used in a crime so you go through a FFL and transfer it properly. So please don't put words in my mouth. There is a lot of this story that is missing. And plenty of safety rules that were broken.





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[Baron_Null]

Where did I say with ceartinty that you had to be twenty one? I said I couldn't buy one.
But you are directly implying that for someone to own a gun before 21 there has to be "more to the story", which directly implies that the handgun could only be obtained through sketchy or less-than-legal means.

No one here wants a handgun registered in their name to end up being used in a crime so you go through a FFL and transfer it properly.

But as long as there is no requirement to do that, then it's not illegal, nor should it be implied to be malicious, to transfer a handgun to someone who is legally allowed to own it.

If I'm not interpreted Michigan law correctly, please let me know.

So please don't put words in my mouth.

I apologize if it seemed I was putting words into your mouth, but that is the way I understood your comment. I was not attempting to insult you.

There is a lot of this story that is missing.

That's pretty much the case every time that news media tells a firearm related story.

And plenty of safety rules that were broken.

No argument here, I completely agree with that.

Like I said, I'm sorry if I insulted you, as I never intended to do that. And I'm sorry if I misconstrued what you were saying. And if I got some part of Michigan law incorrect, please let me know what I got wrong, as I do not want to be misinformed.

[USAF_Vet]

Regarding Michigan pistol laws, you can purchase and own a handgun at 18-20 years old by private purchase only. All handguns must be registered with the state police. At 21, you can purchase directly from an FFL.

I'm pretty sure that goes for ammo, too. Retailers are not supposed to sell pistol ammo to anyone under 21, by law. But ammo can still be legally purchased privately, or purchased for someone under 21. Rifle ammo and shotgun shells can be sold to anyone over the age of 18.

Some retailers get confused when it comes to pistol caliber carbines and their ammo, but that is a different subject.

While the 18 year old in this case was certainly an idiot, his possession of a handgun was not inherently illegal. Too bad we don't have Paul Harvey around to tell us the rest of the story.


Good day.