Do the Pietta '58's play well with .45 LC ?


PDA






Jim, West PA
March 7, 2013, 03:40 PM
A friend o' mine is interested in getting a Pietta '58 target model and a .45LC conversion cylinder for it. Anyone already doin this ? If so, who's cylinder are ya usin and who's a good source for said cylinder ?

If you enjoyed reading about "Do the Pietta '58's play well with .45 LC ?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Tommygunn
March 7, 2013, 03:53 PM
Seems to me the people who make cylinders for these conversions make them for both Uberti 1858s and Pietta 1858s (the two are not interchangeable) and I think that 45 works pretty well in them.

Smokepole14
March 7, 2013, 04:55 PM
Yes they do work pretty well. They come in 5 shot and 6 shot. Mine is a Howells. You can get it from Taylor's firearms or midway USA. Either is a good source.

Yankee John
March 7, 2013, 05:12 PM
The R&D unit that I have for my 1858 short barrel fits and works fantastic!

1KPerDay
March 7, 2013, 06:50 PM
Speaking of which if anyone has one of these for sale for .44 Pietta New Army LMK.

Ideally I'd like the .45 ACP version which nobody makes anymore. Or a 6-shot .45 Colt version would be fine also.

351 WINCHESTER
March 7, 2013, 07:13 PM
I am curious if the cylinders will work for both Uberti and Pietta?

1KPerDay
March 7, 2013, 07:18 PM
Not without a lot of 'smithing. They make different models for the two brands.

MCgunner
March 7, 2013, 09:15 PM
I have the hots for this. I shoot cast lead 200 grain SWCs in my Ruger KP90DC and have a bunch loaded for it. I also shoot .45 Colt in my 4 5/8" Blackhawk, but 8.3 grains of Unique behind a 255 flat nose might be a bit much for the NEW ol' Remmy, methinks. So, I'd rather go with .45ACP for which I don't currently have a revolver at this time, anyway. Be cool to have a revolver in the caliber. It's on the back burner, though. Danged gubment wants 515 bucks of my hard earned money. :rolleyes:

http://oldsouthfirearms.com/howellconversions-1858remingtonpietta45cal5shotacp.aspx

BSA1
March 7, 2013, 10:48 PM
Your friend probably realizes the conversion cylinder sells for more than gun itself which will wind up with more invested in it than just buying a 1875 model.

1KPerDay
March 8, 2013, 12:46 PM
I have the hots for this. I shoot cast lead 200 grain SWCs in my Ruger KP90DC and have a bunch loaded for it. I also shoot .45 Colt in my 4 5/8" Blackhawk, but 8.3 grains of Unique behind a 255 flat nose might be a bit much for the NEW ol' Remmy, methinks. So, I'd rather go with .45ACP for which I don't currently have a revolver at this time, anyway. Be cool to have a revolver in the caliber. It's on the back burner, though. Danged gubment wants 515 bucks of my hard earned money. :rolleyes:

http://oldsouthfirearms.com/howellconversions-1858remingtonpietta45cal5shotacp.aspx
Interesting... howell no longer carries that caliber on their site, anyway. I've emailed them for clarification. thanks!

Jim, West PA
March 8, 2013, 01:10 PM
Hey thanx all form the responses.
I checked with Midway and they do have them in stock.
I see that they carry one fer a '58 .36 in .38 special too.
Mmmm...seems i may jist hafta got one fer myself :cool:

1KPerDay
March 8, 2013, 05:06 PM
Got a response from Howell FYI:

The 58 Pietta cylinder in .45 ACP is available, the Caliber selection is now in a separate dropdown box.



http://www.howelloldwestconversions.com/shop/productinfo.cfm?catID=261&productid=822&a mp;cfid=2325225&cftoken=34375340


Cool... does anyone know the reason they say lead bullets only? I understand you need to load lower pressure rounds, and FMJs need more pressure generally, and I also understand the older 6-shot designs' chambers were angled very slightly to allow fitment of 6 rims in the cylinder, and the lead rounds would allow deformation/whatever upon entering the barrel. But does anyone know if low-end PLATED bullets would be okay, and if not, why?

I'm sure the manufacturer will stick to the lead only rule, but I wondered if anyone had any input.

thanks!

MCgunner
March 8, 2013, 06:51 PM
Might be variances in bore diameter in various guns/models, not sure, though, just a guess. I planned to use my own cast bullets in the gun, anyway, but I did wonder about that.

Another thing that I wonder about, they claim not to shoot any ammo over 1000 fps. WITH WHAT BULLET WEIGHT? Makes a difference. My 200 grainers are running 900 fps out of my 4.5" Ruger KP90DC, so I guess I should be okay, but then, out of an 8" revolver, it might approach 1000 fps. Barrel length is a factor here, too.

Jefferson Herb
March 8, 2013, 09:07 PM
They do specify Black powder pressure loads,ie cowboy etc.

MCgunner
March 8, 2013, 09:49 PM
But, there's never been a black powder .45ACP and no cowboy loads. Main reason I don't consider the .45 Colt conversion is I don't wanna get mixed up with my handloads for the Blackhawk which wouldn't be very nice to the Remmy. The OP probably doesn't have this problem.

Pulp
March 8, 2013, 10:22 PM
If you have the extra brass and are willing to do the work, why not just cut some .45Colt brass down to .45ACP length? You might have to do some inside reaming after they are cut down.

MCgunner
March 8, 2013, 10:37 PM
Meh, i'd prefer to be able to shoot my cast .45ACP stuff in my revolver. Nothing wrong with a .45ACP conversion. I sold my old S&W 1917. I didn't much like it, was pretty worn, but worked fine with jacketed bullets. It didn't like lead bullets, though, very shallow rifling in that gun. I have no reason to ever wanna shoot jacketed in the Remmy. I only have 50 rounds loaded of jacketed bullets, my carry loads in the KP90DC. And, I have tons of .45ACP brass as I used to pick it up at the range all the time. You don't find .45 Colt laying around on the ground. :D AND, I already have one revolver and a Contender barrel in .45 Colt, no revolvers in .45ACP.

mic214
March 8, 2013, 11:14 PM
I have the 5 shot version from Howell's and it works great. I have used mine in cowboy action shooting matches a couple of time. I really like shooting the .45 Schofield's out of it:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/mic214/Firearms/RD-5.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/mic214/Firearms/RD-1.jpg

1KPerDay
March 8, 2013, 11:41 PM
Cool!

eastbank
March 9, 2013, 07:10 AM
with taking the cylinder out to reload the conversions are not as fast for a quick shot after empitying your gun.in a fight after firing six shots, it takes more time to fire a repeat shot from a conversion that a regular CB revolver. if you have several replacement cylinders the point is moat. eastbank.

rcflint
March 9, 2013, 12:57 PM
Lead bullets are required for SASS/CAS shoots, but more to the pouint, the barrrel steel used by the Italians is softer than the barrels used in cartridge guns. Jacketed bullets are not advised. I don't think copper washed bullets would be a problem.

The very small angle used by Howell in the chambers is not enough to distort a bullet or affect accuracy.

45ACP makes a great black powder round, lots of smoke and economical to load. That was the point when the 45 Special was offered.

Driftwood Johnson
March 9, 2013, 04:32 PM
with taking the cylinder out to reload the conversions are not as fast for a quick shot after empitying your gun.in a fight after firing six shots, it takes more time to fire a repeat shot from a conversion that a regular CB revolver. if you have several replacement cylinders the point is moat. eastbank.

Howdy

Exactly how many gunfights have you taken part in using a C&B revolver? Point of fact is it is quicker to pop the conversion cylinder out of a Remington type C&B, dump out the empties and reload and pop it back into the revolver than it is to reload all the chambers on a conventional SAA type revolver where each empty has to be ejected one at a time and each chamber has to be reloaded one at a time.

I have two 1858 Remmies that I have conversion cylinders for. One is my old EuroArms Remmie that I bought a gazillion years ago.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/Remingtons/RemmieandCylinder.jpg

The other Remmie is a stainless Uberti that I bought used a number of years ago. It came with the C&B cylinder and a conversion cylinder.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/Remingtons/IMG_0560enhanced.jpg

No, you cannot interchange cylinders between the Uberti and the Pietta revolvers. The two different brands are slightly different in size and the cylinders are sized to the specific brand of revolver. For what it's worth, the cylinder in my old EuroArms Remmie is a Pietta 'sized' cylinder.

The only 45 Colt six shot conversion cylinder on the market today is the one sold by Taylors. Anyplace that sells the six shot 45 Colt version is buying them from Taylors. Kenny Howell patented the idea of angling the chambers out less than 1/2 of one degree to allow six chambers to fit into the cylinder. For some reason, Kenny Howell sold the rights to his patent to Taylors a few years ago, so they are the only company that can produce the six shot version. Anybody like Midway who is selling them is buying them from Taylors. Kenny Howell now has his own company making conversion cylinders, but because he sold the rights to his patent, he is only making five shot cylinders for 45 Colt in Remmies.

The other player in the game is Walt Kirst. Kirst too makes 5 shot cylinders for the Remmie in 45 Colt. Kirst also offers the option of adding a loading gate to the gun so it can be reloaded one chamber at a time like a SAA.

For what it's worth, the lockwork on these revolvers demands that only 5 chambers be loaded in the six shot cylinders, the hammer must always be down on an empty chamber for safety, no different than a SAA.

The makers of these cylinders stress that they are for steel framed guns, not the brass framed guns. Although they are proofed for Smokeless powder, at least one maker suggests sticking to cowboy loads, no high powered stuff. Look how thin the chamber walls are on my cylinder and that should be self explanatory.

Regarding 38 caliber cylinders, don't get too excited about that too soon. The rifling groove diameter of modern 36 caliber revolvers is too large for modern .357 diameter 38 Special bullets. In order to shoot 38 Special out of these guns with any accuracy, either hollow based bullets must be used, which will expand at the base to engage the rifling, or the barrels must be sleeved for .357 bullets.

MCgunner
March 9, 2013, 04:58 PM
Great info, Driftwood. Thanks a bunch!

Another reason to shoot cartridge (.45ACP in my case) is that sometimes I wanna shoot the gun, but I'm just too lazy to strip and bath it in soap and water. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-002.gif I have 3 cap and ball cylinders for the gun, can load the three and fire up 18 fast, but then i have to reload from the front. I don't really mind this too much, though. I have all the time in the world since I'm retired now and I can set up the reloading in my shop where it's handy and out of the wind or even come in and do it on the bar or kitchen table. :D. Still, I just think it'd be neat to have the .45ACP conversion.

4speed
March 9, 2013, 06:07 PM
Driftwood

Would I be correct in assuming the Euroarms 1858 uses a Pietta cylinder? I have an unfired gun and think I would like to convert it. :rolleyes:

Driftwood Johnson
March 9, 2013, 10:07 PM
4speed

Yes, my old EuroArms Remmie has a 'Pietta' conversion cylinder in it. But I cannot guarantee one will fit yours.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/Remingtons/Remmiewithtallsight.jpg

What I did a bunch of years ago was to get in contact with Taylors. They had a policy back then that they would fit a conversion cylinder to your Remmie FOR FREE. I sent them the gun, they selected a cylinder and did a little bit of fitting for me. I paid for the cylinder and they shipped me back my gun with the cylinder. You might want to contact them and see if they still have this policy.

http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/

345 DeSoto
March 10, 2013, 12:33 PM
"For what it's worth, the lockwork on these revolvers demands that only 5 chambers be loaded in the six shot cylinders, the hammer must always be down on an empty chamber for safety, no different than a SAA."

You do NOT need to keep an empty chamber in a 6 shot conversion!...that's what the detents between the chambers are for...

MCgunner
March 11, 2013, 09:55 AM
It was my understanding that the 6 shooters didn't have the detents (safety notches) and the 5 shooters do? Actually, they're saying it has 10 cylinder stop notches for the purpose, not safety notches for the hammer. I got that impression from reading the following on this site. This is regards to the Howell .45ACP cylinders and may not apply to others, I simply don't know.

http://oldsouthfirearms.com/howellconversions-1858remingtonpietta45cal5shotacp.aspx



The 5 shot cylinder is an excellent choice since you should only load 5 shots in a 6 chamber cylinder, letting the hammer down on an empty chamber. The 5 shot conversion cylinder has 10 cylinder stop notches. Five of these notches are set between the chambers and are designed to be used to lock the cylinder out of battery and allow you to safely lower the hammer fully down between the loaded chambers.

1KPerDay
March 11, 2013, 12:28 PM
It was my understanding that the 6 shooters didn't have the detents (safety notches) and the 5 shooters do? Actually, they're saying it has 10 cylinder stop notches for the purpose, not safety notches for the hammer.
He's referring to the standard safety notches that appear on every unmodified original cap/ball remington, and on the 6-shot conversion cylinders. You can safely lower the hammer between chambers, just like on an original cap/ball, and that is how they were carried in the 19th century (Colts don't have notches for the hammer, but they have a notch IN the hammer that fits over safety "pins" between chambers).

This isn't good enough for the SASS; they require lowering the hammer on an empty chamber OR using one of the newer 5-shot cylinders which were built specifically to comply with SASS' rules.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a206/1KPerDay/Guns/RemmieandCylinder_zps35f3c0af.jpg

MCgunner
March 11, 2013, 02:54 PM
Mmm, same site shows the Kirst with the safety notches....

http://oldsouthfirearms.com/kirskonverter-originalcivilwarstyleconverterringpiettaanduberti.aspx

Perhaps it's the Howell that doesn't have them?

1KPerDay
March 11, 2013, 04:31 PM
Mmm, same site shows the Kirst with the safety notches....

http://oldsouthfirearms.com/kirskonverter-originalcivilwarstyleconverterringpiettaanduberti.aspx


Those aren't safety notches... that back plate doesn't rotate. The notches and false nipples are purely cosmetic. The large "false chamber" with the giant notch in it is the "safe/empty chamber" position on that model.

Driftwood Johnson
March 11, 2013, 07:58 PM
OK, now a little bit of explanation about those 'safety notches' on my Conversion cylinder. It would be nice if I could let the hammer down into them, but the fact is, the hammer nose is too thick and does not fit down into the notches. This is true about both the cylinder pictured with my old EuroArms Remmie, and my stainless Uberti. On neither one can I actually use the notches, because the hammers will not slide into the notches.

Yeah, I know I could file the hammer noses down a bit so they would enter the notches, but since I only use the cylinders in CAS, and since we are ONLY allowed to load 5 rounds in a revolver in CAS, there is really no point. I just let the hammer down on an empty chamber, just like I already said.

351 WINCHESTER
March 12, 2013, 07:22 PM
My 6 shot conversion Taylor's does not have the safety notches?

1KPerDay
March 12, 2013, 08:16 PM
Well from what Driftwood says they're not much use anyway. :)

Dave Markowitz
March 14, 2013, 08:31 PM
This Pietta 1858 plays real nice with .45 Colt.

http://flintlock.org/pics/var/resizes/Pietta-1858-Conversion/Pietta_1858_Kirst_R.JPG?m=1339358335

http://flintlock.org/pics/var/resizes/Pietta-1858-Conversion/Kirst_Gate_Closeup.JPG?m=1339358338

:)

1KPerDay
March 15, 2013, 02:35 PM
OoooooooOoooooo that's purdy...

MCgunner
March 15, 2013, 09:25 PM
Beautiful, Dave!

MCgunner
March 15, 2013, 09:28 PM
Oh, I went to the LGS today, 40 miles away, but the closest one. No percussion caps, but I picked up 1000 large pistol primers, so i guess I might need that .45 cylinder, too, out of necessity, soon. :D

Dave Markowitz
March 15, 2013, 11:46 PM
Thanks, guys. I have to say that I'm really pleased with not only the cosmetics but the function. It shoots very well.

I did the conversion last year. It's a Pietta 1858 from Cabela's with a Kirst gated conversion kit and Remington factory-style ejector. The Kirst cylinder holds 5 shots. The part where a 6th chamber would be is solid. The firing pin is mounted in the cylinder ring that also holds the gate.

If I do another one I'll use Kirst's Richards-Mason type ejector, which is spring loaded.

To cut the loading port I used a Dremel tool with a grinding wheel, sanding drum, and felt polishing bob with some Flitz. To cut the notch in the loading lever I used a hacksaw and files. Then I finished it off with some Birchwood Casey cold blue.

I have ~8 hours into it. I took it slow because this was the first such conversion job that I tackled.

The ammo I've shot through it has been Black Hills .45 Colt CAS loads, consisting of a hard cast 250 grain RNFP bullet at an advertised 750 FPS. By modern standards it's rather wimpy but I found that it will shoot through a seasoned 10" pine log from ~10 - 15 yards. Also, it has more muzzle energy than the .455 Webley ball load, which the Brits considered to be a good manstopper.

MCgunner
March 17, 2013, 11:48 PM
I might be tempted to try 777 handloads in it. It'd probably perform better without excessive pressures. 777 clean up is like BP, of course, but it's easier to clean than Pyrodex or BP, less goo. Nice to have the light smokeless option, though. Sure is easier to clean with smokeless loads than ANY BP or sub.

If you enjoyed reading about "Do the Pietta '58's play well with .45 LC ?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!