Where is the Pistol Powder?


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Triumph
March 7, 2013, 04:56 PM
Is it just me - can't find any pistol powder?

New to reloading just looking for "middle of the road" 9mm & 45 ACP powder.

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Certaindeaf
March 7, 2013, 05:00 PM
Got fiddy bucks? they are selling that

Triumph
March 7, 2013, 05:02 PM
I must be shopping in the wrong places

Certaindeaf
March 7, 2013, 05:07 PM
Well I probably didn't mean to say it like that. What I more meant to say is that it's (all powders) are easily available but for a price. Check the internernet/this "for sale" forums etc

GT1
March 7, 2013, 05:57 PM
PV has WFS(Winchester Super Field) in stock right now. 8 pound jugs.

I don't see anything against it. Some folks like it as much as any normally used powders in 9mm and 45 acp. (read reviews at places like midway or wherever.)

I see decent data for 9mm and 45 acp at the manufacturer site. If I was wanting, I'd not wait. It will still take a week or three I guess.

It is hard to get Win 231/HP 38, or similar, backordered. You'd have to be looking all the time and it can sell out very fast.

gamestalker
March 7, 2013, 06:21 PM
Even though things have been in rather short supply out here, I've still been able to find what ever I need locally. I went out last week to pick up small pistol primers, and I found them. Went out several days later to grab some Longshot, and found that. Picked up a variety of bullets, brass, what can I say we are holding our own out here?
I mean the shelves are not over flowing with supplies, but they are coming in regularly.

GS

GaryL
March 7, 2013, 06:46 PM
I stopped at a local place last week. They didn't have what I want for powder, but they had some that would work just fine for 9mm and 45acp. No primers though, and a 300 primer limit posted on the empty shelf.

GT1
March 7, 2013, 06:47 PM
There should be some decent local stores there in Houston, somewhere.

Triumph
March 7, 2013, 06:54 PM
I'm trying in Houston - I've had luck with primers but no powder.

BYJO4
March 7, 2013, 07:02 PM
You have to constantly looking to find what you need. Midsouth is continually getting powder but have to order enough to justify Hazmat.

greyling22
March 7, 2013, 07:36 PM
I stopped in at a bass pro in houston a month ago, they had powder since the truck had brought it last night. But prices were high and it was flying off the shelves. Mostly to new guys who had no idea what they were buying. I wound up teaching a little mini-class to about 6 guys. "this is a reloading manual, this is how you use it to select a powder from what is available. No, you cannot use rl-19 in your 45cap. I don't care if it's the cheapest thing on the shelf. remember the load manual I showed you. From what I can tell, you are all going to blow yourselves up unless you find a reloader to hold your hand."

Chisos
March 7, 2013, 07:39 PM
Google up National Alliance of Stocking Dealers and you will find why I haven't given Carters Country in Houston my business for the last 20 years

Triumph
March 7, 2013, 07:45 PM
I will

mayassa
March 7, 2013, 10:33 PM
Natchess has some ramshot in stock

thomis
March 8, 2013, 07:49 AM
I just got Lil Gun from Cabelas, along with 3k pistol primers.

Sav .250
March 8, 2013, 07:55 AM
You may have to shop on line. Try the Natchez site. They have powder as do others.

bds
March 8, 2013, 08:45 AM
Here are some more suitable powders for mid-range 9mm/45ACP loads:

Graf & Sons has Ramshot Zip in 1 lb containers which is very similar to W231/HP-38 and also good for mid range 9mm/45ACP loads with available current load data (http://www.ramshot.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/ramshot_handgun_rifle.pdf) - https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/16667


Natchez has Alliant American Select in 4 lb containers and also suitable for 9mm/45ACP with available current load data (http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/Powder.aspx?powderid=2) - http://www.natchezss.com/Category.cfm?contentID=productDetail&brand=HP&prodID=HPAS4&prodTitle=Alliant%20American%20Select%20Powder%204%20Pounds


Cabela's has Alliant Green Dot in 8 lb containers and IME can produce loads comparable to W231/HP-38 but required .2-.3 more powder charge. Although current load data only shows loads for 45ACP (http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/Powder.aspx?powderid=5), 2004 Alliant load data (glarp.atk.com/2004/2004Catalogs/2004AlliantPowderSM.pdf) has expanded load data for 9mm and 45ACP (scroll to bottom of link) - http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=731761

bds
March 8, 2013, 09:03 AM
Widener's has Winchester Super Target (WST) in 1/4/8 lb containers and it is a popular powder for match shooters and suitable for 9mm/45ACP. Current load data shows loads for 45ACP (http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp) but 1999-2005 Winchester load data (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=159609&stc=1&d=1329800605) has more loads for 9mm/45ACP - http://www.wideners.com/itemview.cfm?startrow=13&dir=278|283|309


Widener's also has Alliant American Select in 1 lb containers - http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=1263&dir=278|283|308

Triumph
March 8, 2013, 09:23 AM
bds - well above the call of duty!!! Thanks much for helping out a newbie.

GT1 - (in thread above) also suggests WSF at Powder Valley. I just have to figure out which one of these looks the best and order.

I REALLY appreciate you guys taking the time to help me out.

bds
March 8, 2013, 09:27 AM
Glad to help out a THR member!

I like Winchester Super Field (WSF) and use it for full-power loads at near max load data.

In general, slower burning powders than W231/HP-38/Unique/Universal tend to produce optimal accuracy at high-to-max load data.

If you are wanting accurate mid range target loads, faster burning than W231/HP-38/Unique/Universal powders are better suited.

Here's a burn rate chart - http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

Triumph
March 8, 2013, 09:35 AM
I've got to get at least 8 pounds in some combination to make the Hazmat charge worth it - just have to look at my load data & see which of the following are the most versatile.

WSF
WST
Green Dot
Clays (available at Cabelas)
American Select
Ramshot Zip

Triumph
March 8, 2013, 09:39 AM
Glad to help out a THR member!

I like Winchester Super Field (WSF) and use it for full-power loads at near max load data.

In general, slower burning powders than W231/HP-38/Unique/Universal tend to produce optimal accuracy at high-to-max load data.

If you are wanting accurate mid range target loads, faster burning than W231/HP-38/Unique/Universal powders are better suited.

Here's a burn rate chart - http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

For me just midrange practice & plinking. New Reloader & starting with Berrys round nose plated (115&124 gr) for 9mm and 230gr for 45 ACP.

bds
March 8, 2013, 09:54 AM
If you need to buy 8+ lbs of powder, I would suggest 8 lbs of WST ($125) from Wideners.

It may be the most cost effective option and you will be getting a powder that's been proven to produce accurate match loads at lower pressures.

FYI, it's been my experience that I need to push the lighter 115 gr 9mm bullets to high-to-near max load data to reliably cycle the stiffer recoil springs of newer semi-auto pistols (especially for compacts/subcompacts). If you want to use mid-range load data, heavier 124 gr bullets are better suited for reliably cycling the slide.

bds
March 8, 2013, 10:17 AM
Before you "pull the trigger" on WST, if you also want to end up loading full-power loads later (8 lbs will produce A LOT of rounds!), you may also want to consider WSF.


Here are some comments on WST and 9mm/45ACP:

9mm:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=111615&#entry1267360

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=145856

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=162153&#entry1808930

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=144946&#entry1627384

45ACP:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=143138

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7183

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=146087

Lj1941
March 8, 2013, 10:22 AM
Try a shotgun powder like Clays or Red Dot.Neither is optimum but either will work for.45 ACP & 9.

bds
March 8, 2013, 10:32 AM
Lj1941, I would gladly recommend Red Dot/Promo for 9mm/45ACP, but it's the availability that's the problem for OP (especially if needing to order 8 lbs to justify hazmat charge).

Promo using Red Dot load data has worked very well for me in 9mm/45ACP with lead, plated and jacketed bullets in producing mid-to-high range target loads.

8 lbs of Green Dot from Cabela's is another viable option too which is in stock.

mljdeckard
March 8, 2013, 12:06 PM
I prefer Unique but I jumped on a pound of titegroup when I saw it.

Triumph
March 8, 2013, 12:13 PM
bds - Great info - I've been reading. Some of the Enos forum stuff is pretty above my head right now.

I'm attracted to the WST, WSF, Green Dot & Clays - just don't want to make an 8 pound mistake.

bds
March 8, 2013, 12:38 PM
I hear ya ... too bad we can't get you some W231/HP-38. These are from powder manufacturers' product pages. As you can see (with the exception of W231/HP-38), most are shotgun powders with secondary use as pistol powders due to their faster burn rate and cleaner burning characteristics even at lower target pressures with the exception of WSF (slower burn rate powders require high-to-near max powder charges for more complete burn to produce consistent chamber pressures that results in accuracy).

If you have to commit to a total of 8 lb purchase (remember, you can buy 2 4 lbs or 8 1 lbs or a mix of 1/4/8), you can't go wrong with W231/HP-38/Zip for 9mm/45ACP and Clays/WST/Green Dot/American Select/WSF second for me. If I had to choose powders that came close to W231/HP-38, American Select/Green Dot. I would choose WSF, if you were considering loading full-power loads along with lighter target loads. Just keep in mind that there are current 9mm/45ACP load data for Clays/American Select/WSF. ;)

W231/HP-38 (http://www.wwpowder.com/pistol.html) - One of the most popular reload propellants, 231 is a pistol powder ideally suited to the 38 special, 45 Auto, and 9mm standard loads. Consistency, clean burning, low flash, and a broad range of applications make this powder a choice for any pistol cartridge reloader.



Clays (http://www.hodgdon.com/shotpist.html) - It is the cleanest burning , most consistent 12 ga. 7/8., 1 oz. and 1 1/8 oz. powder available today, the preferred choice of competitive target shooters.. The superb burning characteristics of this powder produce soft, smooth recoil and excellent patterns. These features transfer directly to handgun applications where target shooting is the main goal. 45 ACP and 38 Special are only two of the cartridges where CLAYS gunpowder provides "tack driving" target accuracy with flawless functioning.

WST (http://www.wwpowder.com/shotgun.html) - The choice for 12 gauge AA duplicate handloads and standard velocity handgun loads. Ideal for use in 45 Auto match applications. Consistent, clean, low flash and smoke are benefits to the shooter.

WSF (http://www.wwpowder.com/shotgun.html) - Super-Field propellant is the propellant of choice for Winchester 20 gauge AA Target loads. WSF is an ideal choice to maximize velocities in 12 gauge 1-1/8 ounce and 1-1/4 ounce loads. Super-Field also performs well in 38 Super, 9mm, and 40 S&W pistol loads. Excellent propellant for action pistol applications.

Green Dot (http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/green_dot.aspx) - Best long range clay target powder creating tight and uniform patterns.

Principal Purpose: Handicap trap loads
Secondary Uses: 20 and 28 ga. target loads

American Select (http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/american_select.aspx) - Our newest "ultra clean" burning premium powder makes a versatile target load and superior 1-oz. load for improving clay target scores. Great for Cowboy Action handgun loading, too!

Principal Purpose: 12 ga. target loads
Secondary Uses: Cowboy action handgun loads

bds
March 8, 2013, 12:55 PM
We have more contenders!

Gamaliel has Red Dot in 4/8 lbs and Promo in 8 lb containers! - http://www.gamaliel.com/prodcat/alliant-powder.asp?page=3

They are bulkier flake powders but will certainly do well to produce mid-range target loads.

Gamaliel has other suitable 9mm/45ACP powders in 1/4/8 lb containers and perhaps you can mix them up to try them all out?

Hope this helps.

Triumph
March 8, 2013, 01:02 PM
Big Help - thanks much - I'll let you know what I do in awhile when I have time to digest all your great info.

bds
March 8, 2013, 01:51 PM
Knowing what I know, if I were you, I would order the Promo (only comes in 8 lbs) at $99. It is a larger flake powder that meters with .2-.3 gr variance in some powder measures but will still produce accurate enough mild recoil target loads.

I use 3.8 - 4.0 gr for 125 gr 9mm jacketed/plated/lead bullets and 4.0 gr for 200 gr 45ACP SWC lead bullets.

Next would be American Select/Clays/WST/Green Dot.

Usually, it is ideal for you to try several 1 lb sample of each powder to see which powder works better for your pistols/bullets but unfortunately that option is not really feasible.

Certaindeaf
March 8, 2013, 03:23 PM
^ Yep, $99 plus thirty or so will put a lot of lead downrange and has for a very long time.. Red-Dot/Promo will about do it all. Add some/whatever other powders you can or care to and of course primers (if possible) to help defray hazmat/and to a lesser degree, shipping.

Triumph
March 8, 2013, 03:31 PM
Bds-
Promo using Red Dot load data has worked very well for me in 9mm/45ACP with lead, plated and jacketed bullets in producing mid-to-high range target loads.


Certaindeaf
Red-Dot/Promo will about do it all.

So if I reading right. Promo is the powder & I need to use the load data for Red-Dot?

Certaindeaf
March 8, 2013, 03:36 PM
Bds-



Certaindeaf


So if I reading right. Promo is the powder & I need to use the load data for Red-Dot?
True, they are one and the same save the Promo doesn't have red dots. Very good powder for.. well, a lot of things. It's a target/mid-range powder for a great many handgun cartridges and more. I just use Red-Dot because I like the red dots.. kinda a safety thing. About ten bucks more per eight if you can find it.

Triumph
March 8, 2013, 03:54 PM
Sounds good -

I can start with Promo/Red Dot & also add one of the others to the order.

Thanks very much for the help.

One question - I am assuming if w231/HP38 was available you would use that instead?

GT1
March 8, 2013, 05:00 PM
I am assuming if w231/HP38 was available you would use that instead?

Most of us probably would, it is a crowd favorite. It loads well in anything from .380 to 45, and even does okay in light load .357 mag. It isn't touchy/spikey. It plays well in everything, that's why it is so popular.

It is very hard to find right now in these times of everyone scrambling to buy up all they can. It can be found, but you might have to wait for weeks, and it would be mostly luck that you click on a site that has it because it sells out in an hour, or less.

bds
March 8, 2013, 05:44 PM
One question - I am assuming if w231/HP38 was available you would use that instead?
Yes.

W231/HP-38 (same exact powder and many claim Ramshot Zip to be very close) is not a perfect powder like Unique (can load from target to full power loads) but where it shines is producing lower pressure mid-to-high load data range target loads that are very accurate.

For higher pressure KaBoom prone 40S&W, I recommend W231/HP-38 to new reloaders as with 180 gr bullet, it can produce accurate target loads even at start-to-mid range load data with much lower chamber pressures.

But if you can't find W231/HP-38, Promo/Red Dot can fill the spot for practice/plinking duty as economical 3.8-4.0 gr charges can work with 125 gr 9mm, 180 gr 40S&W and 200 gr 45ACP. How much do I like Promo? I am on my second 8 lb jug and have another under the bench.

Fishslayer
March 8, 2013, 06:14 PM
I've got to get at least 8 pounds in some combination to make the Hazmat charge worth it - just have to look at my load data & see which of the following are the most versatile.

WSF
WST
Green Dot
Clays (available at Cabelas)
American Select
Ramshot Zip

Shhhhh... ixnay on the reenotsay... it's already hard enough to get ahold of. ;)

greyling22
March 8, 2013, 07:26 PM
I want to interject that promo and red dot ARE NOT THE SAME. they have the same burn rate and you use the same load data BY WEIGHT, be careful if you're using a volumetric dispenser (ex: lee auto disk) because youwil end up with more promo in a case than you would red dot and could go kaboom. Fingers don't usually grow back.

bds
March 8, 2013, 08:30 PM
Yes, good point. The link I provided to Alliant's Promo page (http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/promo.aspx) states to use by WEIGHT and I always reference the Red Dot load data by WEIGHT and verify the powder charges with the Ohaus 10-10 scale.
Promo has the same burn speed as Red Dot, but is more dense, thus requiring a smaller bushing to obtain the same charge weight.

Triumph
March 8, 2013, 09:16 PM
I want to interject that promo and red dot ARE NOT THE SAME. they have the same burn rate and you use the same load data BY WEIGHT, be careful if you're using a volumetric dispenser (ex: lee auto disk) because youwil end up with more promo in a case than you would red dot and could go kaboom. Fingers don't usually grow back

I agree fingers don't grow back. Thanks very much for making sure I keep mine. I will be sure not to use in the Dillon 550B powder dispenser

I won't be getting the Dillon for 5 or 6 weeks and will use the RCBS 10-10 to weigh the loads.

8lb. of Promo is on the way.

Tonight I figured out what I am missing. I do not have a powder dispenser, other than the inline powder dispensers I have coming with the Dillon 550B.

Maybe I'll make my partner (my Aunt) spring for a RCBS Chargemaster Combo.

bds
March 8, 2013, 09:56 PM
Disclaimer: Use the following unpublished load data at your own risk.


Here are some Promo info to get you started for 9mm/45ACP:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=518185

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=578444

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=48757

greyling22
March 9, 2013, 01:04 AM
you can probably use it in any dispenser, you will just need to adjust it to drop the appropriate weight. I don't know how the dillion works, but with an autodisk, just keep trying the smaller holes in the disks and weigh the charges until you get the appropriate weight.

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