[SIGarmed]

The Jeff Cooper test:

"Regarding weight,there is a simple test anyone can do, in the store, on the range, or in the field. The shooter should grasp the peice with his right hand in a firing grip and hold it out shoulder high, at arm's length, muzzle vertical for 60 seconds. If he finds this excercise painfull or even difficult, his rifle is too heavy."

Well yeah I stopped using weights many moons ago. So far my Ruger 10/22 barely passed. :D Some people can't even do this with a loaded pistol!

My M1A,forget about it.

I mean how realistic is this?

[762x51]

Unfortunately....I have yet to read anything by Col. Cooper. Can you enlighten me as to what this test determines the rifle in question is "too heavy" for?

[SIGarmed]

This is from the book "The art of the rifle" by yours truly Col. Jeff Cooper.

This is from page 19. To give you an idea I'll give you the first sentence to the previous paragraph from the one I just posted above. This sums it up.

"It is important that a general-purpose rifle be handy."

[Schuey2002]

Well, since you mentioned the Colonel, it would have to be something like a Scout rifle.. such as a Steyr.

[NewShooter78]

Well if you are unable to support your rifle after being shot in your support arm, I guess being able to hold it one handed is important. But if you are buying a range gun I don't know if this test should apply.

[thumbtack]

I just did it with my Colt HBAR barely. The last 10 seconds my arm was shaking like a leaf in a tornado. I feel like such a wus.

[Redlg155]

Not very realistic unless you need a featherweight rifle for packing in the mountains or on long jaunts in the prarie/desert.

Otherwise carry what you want and just hitch a ride. :D

Good SHooting
RED

[444]

I know where he is coming from with this, but obviously the test is flawed. Some people couldn't hold up any rifle like that. Other people could hold up an M60 machine gun like that. Does that made the rifle good or bad ? On the other hand, I realize that he is talking about a rifle for YOU. IF YOU can't do it, then the rifle is to heavy for YOU.

[Andrew Wyatt]

Jeff coopers advice may not be the optimum solution to every shooting related problem, but he's been there and done that enough to realize what works.

[Smokey Joe]

That would leave those of us who prefer a heavier bbl, for the sake of stability, out in the cold. A light rifle is handier to carry, BUT, hunters don't carry a rifle to carry it, they carry it to shoot it, and I want mine to be as steady and of as light a recoil as can practicably be managed. If that means dragging an extra pound or 2 through the woods, so be it. If I really want to lighten my load, I'll go on a diet and lose 10 lbs, and then my 10-lb rifle-and-scope-and-ammo will have no net effect at all.

I have the greatest respect for Col. Cooper, but when I can't carry the rifle I want for shooting, on a hunt, I'll stop hunting. He's welcome to carry the rifle he wants, and doubtless it'll be lighter than mine.

Some Professional Hunter in Africa, many years ago, wrote of being sneaked up on, to within one-jump distance, by a man-eating lion. He shot the lion by holding the rifle like a pistol, v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y raising it to sight, and bang, brain shot, and that was that. He said he was glad he'd been carrying a light rifle, or he'd not have been able to do it, and would have been killed. Of course, what was considered "light" by an old-time African PH might not be by our standards. But this is the only instance I can call to mind where lightness in a hunting rifle was any sort of advantage in a shooting situation.

[Deadman]

Center of gravity would also come into play with a 'test' like that. After all a Steyr Aug ( 31.1 inches in length ) loaded with a full mag weighs 4.1kg (about 9lbs), which is about the same as my M-N M-44.

I can easliy hold 2 Steyr Aug's (one in each hand with both buttstocks placed against my shoulders), however trying to hold one M-44 with one hand while shouldered is far more difficult. No doubt due to the center of gravity being further away from my body with the longer rifle.

[Art Eatman]

Back some (mumble, mumble), okay, 28 years ago, I felt that I needed to do something to improve my control of my rifle when shooting offhand. So, I bought myself a set of weights for Christmas.

I worked up to where I could do ten reps of each exercise, with 100 pounds on the bar. Curls, presses, all that stuff. Wrist curls with 70 pounds. Leap up stairs, get asked to help move furniture...

All this really helped me with control, making it much easier to hold the rifle steady.

I might not phrase it as harshly as does Cooper, but I'm generally in accord with his idea. And, ya gotta remember that in his outlook about riflery, he's always got the notion of ability to perform as a combat Marine.

Seeing videos of him, even in his 70s, he's still pretty darned stout in upper body strength. He may not run, he may not throw a fast jab, but what you wouldn't want is for him to grab hold of you and squeeze.

:), Art

[trapshooter]

In addition to what Art said, you have to remember that Cooper is discussing the desirable characteristics of a 'general purpose' rifle. I think the Colonel understands the differing requirments of a purpose built gun.

[3 gun]

What's so hard about this test? I just did it with my scoped M1a with the leather sling and cleaning kit on board. I didn't use a loaded mag, might have made it a little harder.

[Jack19]

I've got a copy of "Art of the Rifle," learned a heck of a lot by reading it. And, I respect Cooper. But 60 seconds with a rifle extended shouldn't be that much of a problem for anyone who carries a rifle for any reason.

I just tried it with two rifles, a loaded FAL (full length barrel) and a loaded HK91. Not a problem.

If you can't, lift weights and get in shape.

[NewShooter78]

Or instead of lifting weights, just take your heaviest rifle and practice holding it up like that...and do it with each arm separatly. You'll notice a difference after a short while if you do that daily especially with a heavy barreled hunting rifle.

[Mike Irwin]

I think a MORE logical question would be "which shooters pass the test?"

Given the physical state of most Americans these days, I'd not be surprised if the majority of people have problems taking this test with a No. 2 pencil.

Given that most rifles have slings for cartage, I'm not so sure that I see the applicability of this test at all...

[Delmar]

I don't think I'd worry too much about making the Colonel's standards. He certainly has his own ideas about what works for him, but some of his ideas have not exactly made the grade either-like the D&D Bren 10. The scout rifle as I understand it is a short, lightweight bolt rifle with a foreward mounted scope. Not bad for hunting maybe, but I'd sure want more firepower than that if strolling in the bad guys neighborhood. And I don't personally see the sense in buying a $1500 bolt gun when I can easily accomplish close to the same thing at 1/3 the cost. I think the important part is to be able to use what you have efficiently.

[BigG]

One thing Coop is referring to is HANDINESS.

How does it handle? If the balance is so far off that you can't carry it one handed it's not very handy.

The African hunter who spoke of "heavy vs. light" was probably referring to caliber as in 470 or sumpin like that rather than the weight of the piece.

[cratz2]

By that line of reasoning, I guess it shouldn't have been a fan of the Garand, huh? ;)

I might have five rifles I could do that with. Maybe.

[Destructo6]

Just tried this with my HK: loaded mag, no bipod. It was easier with the left arm than the right by a bit.

We did this once in Field Med, as "M16 appreciation". I think our sadistic military advisor went quite a bit longer than a minute.

[SIGarmed]

Well I can keep up just about any rifle for 60 seconds, but thats not the test. He said "If he finds this excercise painfull or even difficult, his rifle is too heavy."

Who doesn't feel anything after holding a 9lbs. rifle straight out at shoulder length after a minute?

[Art Eatman]

Delmar, the last thing one does as a scout is to be visible in a bad-guy neighborhood. The whole idea is never to be seen; or, if seen and needs must, shoot and scoot.

Saturday night on American Shooter, Scoutten showed some film of an interview with Cooper. Jeff showed his own Scout which preceded the Steyr. Up, Bang! just about as fast as many with a handgun. Not bad for a guy more'n ten years older'n me. :)

I'd venture that the phrase, "...the rifle is too heavy." really means, "...the rifle is too heavy for that person." Said person can more easily strengthen his physique than his mind, of course. :D

Art

[cheygriz]

Isn't that why we have slings on rifles?

Even at my advanced age, I can hold up my M-1 Garand for 60 seconds without undue fatigue. (I lift weights three times per week)

But why would I want to? I have a good sling on my Garand.

I guess that some on this board will consider this comment blasphemous, but I have never really seen any useful purpose for the scout rifle concept.

[Correia]

I tried it just now with my heaviest rifle. Piece of cake. Got a little quivery about 2 minutes in.

I really think some shooters just need to hit the gym. :) We had this same discussion in shotguns the other day about keeping the shotgun up while you load.

[Delmar]

Art-you sure the Colonel is TEN years older than you? How is that possible??:D :D :D
For my money, you sound a whole lot smarter than the jarhead, but then, you sometimes have to make allowances for commissioned officers:p
Seems to me that the closer the enemy, the faster the action and the more portable the weapon. Personally, I would want an AR-10 style rifle which gives me a 30 caliber and not much more weight than what Cooper is proposing, nicely balanced, and the capability of hitting multiple targets close up. Out in the fields, its easier to avoid getting close, but in the street, I would say your chances of bumping into a target rich environment is higher unless the evil ones just aren't there.

[Art Eatman]

Well, Cooper has repeatedly pointed out that a scout's mission is very similar to that of a hunter, not a fighting soldier in combat. A scout avoids a target-rich environment. And, if he needs to shoot, he has to do it quickly. From that requirement, the Scout rifle meets the need.

I have a little Sako carbine in .243 that I bought in 1970. It has a conventionally-mounted scope. It meets Scout weight and length. I've proven I can get it up quickly and kill a deer on the run. With over 50 years, overall, of using a conventionally-mounted scope, I'm happy with convention.

Johnny Guest brought his Savage Scout to my place, on hunt season. I tried it for feel. I can see the advantages, but I'd have to do a good bit of un-learn and re-learn to do better than I do now.

That said, if I knew for sure there was a high probability that I'd be encountering a hostile individual more often than Bambi, I think I just might do some re-learning. :) If you only gain a few tenths of a second to a hit, you have better odds of living through an encounter. Why give anything away?

So, once again, intended use. There just ain't no one size fits all, whether you're talking guns, law or clothing.

Art

[Delmar]

No doubt they would be fun. Have a friend of mine in Paris (no, Texas) who inherited a sporterized 30-40 Krag, minimum stock with a 2.5 X pistol scope, and I sure had fun with it on running coyotes trying to get at the chicken coop. Can't say what it weighs but with a 22 inch barrel it was light and easy to swing. Only bad part about it is that he won't sell it:(

[Marshall]

Read Jim Carmichel's book of the same name, "Book of the Rifle."

[BHP9]

__________________
Some Professional Hunter in Africa, many years ago, wrote of being sneaked up on, to within one-jump distance, by a man-eating lion. He shot the lion by holding the rifle like a pistol, v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y raising it to sight, and bang, brain shot, and that was that. He said he was glad he'd been carrying a light rifle, or he'd not have been able to do it, and would have been killed. Of course, what was considered "light" by an old-time African PH might not be by our standards. But this is the only instance I can call to mind where lightness in a hunting rifle was any sort of advantage in a shooting situation.


Interesting story but it sounds verbatum like the one old Jim Corbett told in his book "Maneaters of Kumaon". This took place in India not Africa and the quarry was a man eating tiger not a lion.

The story was later proved to be a fabrication. Although Jim Corbett did indeed hunt man eating tigers he was not above embellishing his stories although in my opinion it really was not needed considering he went into areas that most hunters of the day absolutely refused to even consider entering. Jim's book is probably one of the all time best adventure and hunting books ever written along with "Hunter" by John Allen Hunter and that book did take place in Africa.

As far as holding a rifle out at arms length Jeff askes too much of the average couch potatoe these days. I believe Jeff is speaking of a long range carry all day type of rifle not a target rifel. My own AR15 with heavy barrel actually had 3 pounds of weight added to it to balance the flimsy plastic stock that made it too muzzel heavy for offhand shooting. I believe it weighs in at 13 lbs and although I can hold it out for a minute it is not the type of weapon Jeff was talking about. It is a specializied weapon for a specialized application.

[Smokey Joe]

BHPÑNow that you quote the name Corbett, I believe that WAS the name of the PH in question in my earlier post. Forgive me the continent and which cat, please; I read the story 50 years ago as a schoolboy, back when it wasn't politically incorrect to have material about hunting and shooting in a school literature book. It was used as an example of autobiographical writing, IIRC. Never gave the story further thought until this thread jogged my memory.

Talk about a trip down memory lane! I also read Hunter about the same time in my career!

Seems we've demolished poor Col. Cooper pretty thoroughly in this thread.

That's what one gets for making blanket statements.