Opinions on first 9mm handloads


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nojoke
March 8, 2013, 06:54 PM
Using a LnL with a powerfunnel.
The funnel gives quite a flair and I've played with the crimp quite a bit to smooth off the flaired end. Seems over crimped to me but any less and I get a rough/still flaired edge.
I'm using the Hornady seater/crimper die.
Opinions? Suggestions?
Using power pistol 5.4grains. 115g FMJ

http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k582/ned946/first9mm_zps0f48ac4e.jpg

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DMZ
March 8, 2013, 07:02 PM
They look good, very nice. I have never loaded FMJ bullets in that caliber, so they look a bit long to me.

Did you drop a sample into the chamber of the pistol you plan to use them in to verify enough crimp was used? They should drop right in on their own.

nojoke
March 8, 2013, 07:04 PM
Set at 1.169" I believe. Yes, I need to do that test - thanks for the reminder.

TheCracker
March 8, 2013, 07:32 PM
Look good to me. My lee dies leave my 9mm reloads with that hourglass look.

I was also going to recommend the plunk test. Your rounds should drop easily into the chamber and fall out when u turn the barrel upside down.

pseudonymity
March 8, 2013, 07:33 PM
You are right at max length @ 1.169, make sure they do not jam into the rifling with a plunk test.

Looks like you have very little bullet in the case - it is kind of hard to tell in the pic, but it almost looks like a few did not seat straight. The three in the middle seem to have about the right amount of crimp - just enough to remove the flare. The round farthest right seems like it is tilted in the case, leading to a crimp bulge on the right side of the pic. Could just be the photo though.

LUCKYDAWG13
March 8, 2013, 07:40 PM
they look good i shoot a lot of cast boolits out of my 9mm
using Bullseye powder i would but 1 or 2 rds in your magazine
to see if they feed ok

floydster
March 8, 2013, 07:50 PM
Do the Plunk test and the mag test--they do look long to me.

Smokeyloads

ljnowell
March 8, 2013, 07:53 PM
Looking at the round on the right it looks like you can see where the bullet is seated in the case. If thats how far they are seated, they are no where near seated to the right depth. With it being a 115gr bullet, I dont see how they can have that much bullet outside of the case.

Walkalong
March 8, 2013, 07:56 PM
Set at 1.169" I believe. Yes, I need to do that test - thanks for the reminder.1.169 is SAMMI max. They should be loaded more like 1.130 to 1.135.

Plunk Test (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=506678)
.

GT1
March 8, 2013, 08:07 PM
At saami max they are safe to shoot, if your pistol will feed them. It is always about the feed. My current loads are 1.16, they are very close to factory rounds, in power, and dimensions. They work great in my M&P 9.

Let your pistol decide, not someone's opinion.

Your rounds look fine, you did everything right, looks like.

Walkalong
March 8, 2013, 08:18 PM
1000's of rounds down range is a little more than just a guess, it's opinion based on experience. Those rounds have very little of the bullet in the case.

And yes, the pistol has the final say, but at that OAL I would surely try the plunk test before loading a bunch of them. :)

GT1
March 8, 2013, 08:26 PM
I just pulled out my factory rounds, they measure over 1.16(Speer Lawman and S&B RN ammo) . I'm going to go along with millions and millions of rounds worth of experience. And a plunk test. *shrug*

The main issue with max length if your pistol feeds is it takes more powder to get the velocity up. My 1.169 rounds were quiet and weak when I first started working up, was like shooting a 22LR compared to factory stuff.

kingmt
March 8, 2013, 08:41 PM
Id say your flaring to much.

mboe794
March 8, 2013, 09:00 PM
I personally would seat a little deeper just to make myself feel better about how much bullet is being held by the case. And IMO that is quite a low powder charge for that bullet, especially at that loooong OAL. You're robably gonna wanna work up from there. Power Pistol is pretty forgiving. You can go up quite a bit with a 115gr jacketed round nose.

matworz
March 8, 2013, 09:23 PM
They do look long to me. Very little bearing area. These are my 9's with 115gr Berry Plated. 1.12" OAL.

http://home.comcast.net/~mattworzala/picture006.jpg

Lee shows 6.2gr Power Pistol as starting load, 6.7 max. I use 6.5 with no issues. You may find those a bit lacking in pop. Give em a try. That's how you'll know.

PhotoBiker
March 8, 2013, 09:32 PM
OP: (Nojoke)

Is it me or is there a bulge near the top of the case (crimp?) on the round on the right?

How do these chamber?

Walkalong
March 8, 2013, 09:45 PM
I'm going to go along with millions and millions of rounds worth of experience. Well, I certainly haven't loaded and shot that many 9MM rounds. :)

I would still be a lot more comfortable with more of the bullet in the case.

bds
March 8, 2013, 10:26 PM
nojoke, your rounds loaded to 1.169" OAL may hit the start of rifling on some barrels.

Here are Winchester 115 gr FMJ (.355") bullets loaded to 1.135" OAL with .375" taper crimp - feeds/chambers reliably in several pistols I have used.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=158881&stc=1&d=1329063625

beatledog7
March 8, 2013, 10:42 PM
Agree, they look very well made but need to be seated deeper. Not enough bullet in the case and may not load into the mag easily. Without his barrel no way to tell if they'll hit the rifling.

I'd hate to have the OP actually bend one open trying to to get it in the mag.

nojoke
March 8, 2013, 10:43 PM
http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k582/ned946/nojoke/CalGuns/9mmbullet_zps82109b05.jpg

bds
March 8, 2013, 11:11 PM
So do the finished rounds drop in the chamber freely with a "plonk" and feed/chamber reliably from the magazine when the slide is released?

me26245
March 8, 2013, 11:21 PM
I agree with several of the others you need to seat the bullet deeper into the case.
You may fine that you'll have feeding problems with the rounds as they are.
I don't use a LNL but I would think you could adjust the powder die so that it flairs just enough to get the bullet to start seating.
To much flair works the brass unnecessarly.
If you fire this ammunition in different firearms I would suggest getting a cartridge case guage.
If a cartridge will drop in and fall out freely from a cartridge guage it will chamber in any firearm, provided it isn't to long.

ljnowell
March 8, 2013, 11:33 PM
Those definately need to be seated deeper OP, no matter what the max allowable length is. Some of them even look a little crooked. When they get seated to a proper depth sometimes slightly crooked bullets get straghtened out.

Good luck, and Good Loading OP!

Matt Dillon
March 8, 2013, 11:34 PM
A couple of things. Girst of all, have you inserted these rounds in a magazine and fed them reliably through a pistol?
Also, I have just finished up 3000 rounds of 9mm. And che

Matt Dillon
March 8, 2013, 11:36 PM
A couple of things. Girst of all, have you inserted these rounds in a magazine and fed them reliably through a pistol?
Also, I have just finished up 3000 rounds of 9mm. And checked each of them with a Wilsom case gauge which I highly reccomend

nojoke
March 9, 2013, 12:01 AM
http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k582/ned946/nojoke/CalGuns/handloadleftvfederalfactoryleft_zps1e5ab4a2.jpg

handload on the left / federal factory ammo on right

http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k582/ned946/nojoke/CalGuns/handload_zps5be0b5ad.jpg

Handload plunk test (drops in an out without a snag)

http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k582/ned946/nojoke/CalGuns/Federalfactoryammo_zps1c5fee0f.jpg

Federal factory fit

http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k582/ned946/nojoke/CalGuns/IMG_5567_zps45605dea.jpg

Sig 2022 magazine fit

matworz
March 9, 2013, 12:19 AM
You asked for opinions. We gave them. If you believe the majority of us that told you the same thing are wrong... then why did you ask? I can tell by looking that the profile of those two bullets are different. Do you know the length of those factory bullets? Why don't you mark one of those factory loads and pull one apart to see the depth below the case mouth? It looks to me like you have very little purchase on your bullet. Dangerous? Probably not. You seem convinced it is ok, and continue to try to prove it. So be it. I guess you are good to go. Not really sure what you want to hear, if not our honest opinions.

Reefinmike
March 9, 2013, 12:21 AM
left side of the first pic looks like you are crimping too much. With how little of the bullet is in the case, id be weary on those. First, Id cycle them ten times in your gun. slide locked back and then drop the slide. cycle 5 random ones ten times and measure before and after. I dont load 9mm so Im not too sure how much setback is unacceptable. maybe around .02"?

anyways, Id load up 10 of varying lengths and shoot em all.

matworz
March 9, 2013, 01:02 AM
I did it for you. I had a box of Federals. Took one apart.
Fed on left, Berrys on right. Both 115's.
Line shows how deep it was seated. Roughly .225". How deep are yours seated? Do they have a hollow base?
http://home.comcast.net/~mattworzala/picture007.jpg
Why the difference? Hollow base and completely different ogive.
http://home.comcast.net/~mattworzala/picture008.jpg
Lesson: a bullet is not a bullet is not a bullet.

nojoke
March 9, 2013, 01:05 AM
In no way am I wanting to be argumentative.
I will seat further down.
Just taking pics of what I have done so far.

Thanks for the advice - very valuable! :D

vtail
March 9, 2013, 01:15 AM
I've also got an LNL with a Powderfunnel.

How are you adjusting the amount of bell?

If you don't have a Hornady Quick Change Powder Through Expander Linkage, I would highly suggest getting one. Makes it much easier to adjust the amount of the bell, and only $8.00:


http://www.midwayusa.com/product/959962?cm_mmc=S_Spop-Email-_-Service_Emails-_-ShippingConfirmation-_-ProductLink


I have a different one for each caliber.

matworz
March 9, 2013, 01:19 AM
Seriously... don't guess. Measure. Handloading is not rocket science, but it is precision. Even holding one up next to it will give you an idea of how much purchase you have on that bullet. The more purchase, the straighter they will seat and less likely they are to jar loose. This forum is about sharing experience and knowledge, glad you are here.

vtail
March 9, 2013, 01:50 AM
Are you using a combination seater/crimper die or a separate seater and crimper?

If the former, is it the combination seater/roll crimp die or the combination seater/taper crimp die?

Reefinmike
March 9, 2013, 02:11 AM
not sure if you saw my comment, but the picture at the top of page two looks like you are crimping too much. back off that a tad and as everyone has said... seat deeper!

nojoke
March 9, 2013, 10:25 AM
vtail-

I'll play with the linkage - yes I have one.

I adjust the powderfunnel by raising/lowering the powder station die. I'll post a pic later of what the flair looks like - its just enough to grab a bullet (imo).

I belive I have the combination seater/taper crimp die - I don't think there's a clear description on the hornady box.

This set:
http://cdn2.armslist.com/sites/armslist/uploads/posts/2012/04/05/358349_01_hornady_3die_set_for_9mm_luger_640.jpg

http://media.toolking.com/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/H/o/Hornady_546515_Series_II_Three_Die_Set_9mm_Luger.jpg

matworz
March 9, 2013, 10:43 AM
Nope... "The Hornady Custom Grade New Dimension Nitride 3-Die Set is a great die set for the avid reloader. The set includes a CGND Nitride Full-length Sizing Die, CGND Adjustable Case Mouth Expander Die, and CGND Seater Die with roll crimp." Does anyone know why they even make a roll crimp for 9x19? Wouldn't the only use be for 9mm revolvers and moon clips?

bds
March 9, 2013, 11:00 AM
The Hornady Custom Grade New Dimension Nitride 3-Die Set is a great die set for the avid reloader. The set includes ... CGND Seater Die with roll crimp." Does anyone know why they even make a roll crimp for 9x19?
You should use taper crimp and not roll crimp for semi-auto rounds that headspace on case mouths. If you look at the finished round on the left, you can see the bullet actually indented significantly (I wonder what the OD measurement is at that point?) and certainly this reduced diameter will likely allow the case mouth to be inserted into the leade/freebore of the barrel instead of case mouth headspacing on the chamber - not a good thing.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=181104&stc=1&d=1362844508


Pictures showing case mouths headspacing on the chamber (pictures not to scale)

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=180081&stc=1&d=1361381643

nojoke
March 9, 2013, 11:26 AM
oof.
Does anyone have a part number for the taper crimp/seater die?

vtail
March 9, 2013, 11:58 AM
This is it. Backordered of course.


http://www.midwayusa.com/product/156804/hornady-custom-grade-new-dimension-taper-crimp-seater-die-9mm-luger-9x21mm


You could go with a separate seater and taper crimp die.

matworz
March 9, 2013, 12:10 PM
I personally use the Lee Factory Crimp die. Some love it, others have no use for it. Seat and crimp in separate steps. I have a 4 hole press, so no big deal to me. I still have no idea why Hornady sells 9x19 with a roll crimp die. You can still use it. It'll remove your flare, its just a hell of a lot touchier of an adjustment. You really don't need to crimp 9x19, just remove the case bell - if your seating depth is proper and neck tension is good.

nojoke
March 9, 2013, 04:47 PM
more pics :-)

case begins at .3760 virgin new
sizing goes to .3750
flair goes to .3880
final at .3760 (need to play with crimp)

Ends at 1.1555 OAL

Flair:
http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k582/ned946/nojoke/CalGuns/flair_zps8fbe8c75.jpg

bullet on top of flair:
http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k582/ned946/nojoke/CalGuns/flairwbullet_zpsdf73fa7f.jpg

completed round (at previous crimp setting - still need to play with this I believe):
http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k582/ned946/nojoke/CalGuns/complete_zps1e7fa457.jpg

beatledog7
March 9, 2013, 05:11 PM
Looks like too much flare and a roll crimp.

nojoke
March 9, 2013, 05:17 PM
Wow. Ok, I thought I was fine with the flair. I'll work on taht first then the crimp.

beatledog7
March 9, 2013, 05:25 PM
It just looks like more than you need, overworking the brass and lessening case life. Use just enough to stop the bullet from being shaved when you seat it.

matworz
March 9, 2013, 05:58 PM
That's about how I flare for plated bullets. I've peeled off the plating on too many with a lesser flare. For fmj bullets it is more than needed, but I doubt it'll shorten your brass life all that much. I generally lose them before I wear them out.

OAL looks much better to me.

You already know about the crimp. Gonna be tough with a roll crimp die, but keep messing with it. I'm guessing you're good with the method of adjusting crimp without changing your seat depth?

Looking good... getting close!

nojoke
March 9, 2013, 06:24 PM
"You already know about the crimp. Gonna be tough with a roll crimp die, but keep messing with it. I'm guessing you're good with the method of adjusting crimp without changing your seat depth?"

Umm, no? I was going to just play with the crimp (raise the die) then play with the bullet depth?

Walkalong
March 9, 2013, 06:37 PM
The flare is OK. A little more than needed, but OK.

You need a real taper crimp die. Lee (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/274765/lee-taper-crimp-die-9mm-luger) and Redding (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/214068/redding-taper-crimp-die-9mm-luger) both sell one. C&H does as well.

Hornady cheaps out and puts a 45ish degree crimp ledge in its sleeve for .38/.357 or 9MM. It roll crimps pretty well (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7407706&postcount=102), but will not properly taper crimp.

Your crimp is excessive.

Back the die up in the lock ring so no crimping is going on. then seat some bullets. the back the seater stem way up so it will not touch the bullets and slowly screw the die body back down so the crimp ledge barely touches the case and just removes the bell.

The finished round should look more like the Federal factory round, or this handloaded .38 Super round.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=110407&stc=1&d=1260029136

matworz
March 9, 2013, 09:21 PM
Back the die up in the lock ring so no crimping is going on. then seat some bullets (to the proper depth). then back the seater stem way up so it will not touch the bullets and slowly screw the die body back down so the crimp ledge barely touches the case and just removes the bell.



What WALKALONG said^^^... then AFTER you have the crimp all set up how you want, set the lock ring. Run the seated round back up into the die, and screw your seating stem BACK DOWN to just touch the bullet and lock it down. Your crimp will be set, and your seating depth will be good. That's the key to doing an "all in one" seat/crimp operation. Run a few through and double/triple check everything before you do big batches.

Armymutt
March 11, 2013, 09:46 PM
It looks like you're putting too much flare on the case. I had that issue when I first put in the Powderfunnel PTX. I just adjusted it for the minimum amount that would let me put the bullet on the case without it falling off and it works great. Use the piece that comes with the press - looks like an aluminum bar with a channel in it and a set screw on each end. I'll try to take a picture of mine this weekend. My rounds look pretty close to factory.

gamestalker
March 11, 2013, 11:40 PM
For seating jacketed bullets in a rimless cartridge, I never bell or crimp and it makes life so simple.

Evenly chamfer the inside of the case mouth, set the bullet on top of the case mouth once it's in the shell holder, and just seat. This provides the maximum obtainable degree of neck tension, and completely eliminates the need to bell and crimp. I've been seating like this for decades and you couldn't pay me to go back to the conventional method. And you'll never have to deal with or worry about neck tension issues that result from unintentional over belling or crimping.

GS

OldTex
March 12, 2013, 01:08 AM
I can't imagine why they'd make a roll crimp on a 9mm die unless you were loading for a revolver using moon clips. That out to be a specialty die, not part of a standard set. The reason why is because the 9mm headspaces off the case mouth, meaning that the diameter of the rim of the case mouth is what determines how far the round goes into the chamber. (see the diagram posted above by dbs). The SAAMI spec for that diameter is .380.

If you load a round and taper crimp the flair back down until it reaches .380, there is usually a little lip left between the case mouth and the side of the bullet. Looks a little funky but it will work perfectly. If you keep adding more crimp until it looks nice and smooth like a factory round, you will find that your mouth diameter is usually less than .380. In fact, if you check a bunch of factory rounds, you'll find that most of them are also less than .380. This is because the thickness of the case walls at the mouth is often less than the 0.0125 it would take to get a true .380. ---- .355+(2 x .0125)=.380

If the case mouth diameter gets small enough to slip by that lip in the chamber shown in the above diagram, the round can go too far into the chamber - so far that the case head is no longer in contact with the bolt face when the bolt closes. The firing pin may not reach the primer. It may reach the primer and knock the round farther into the chamber as it goes off, leading to all sort of problems ranging from case head separation to a catastrophic KABOOM.

You can get away with a case mouth diameter that is smaller than .380 up until the point where both sides of the case mouth are able to slip by. How much under .380 you can get away with depends on the exact dimensions of your chamber. I'd rather have a funky lip on my rounds than run the risks of getting too small, but that's a decision we each have to make. It's alright to get smooth, just don't get carried away.

As an aside to some of the earlier comments, the amount of flair needed is just enough so that you can seat a new bullet easily. If you flair too much, the taper crimp will bring it back down again. All you're doing by flairing too much is putting excessive wear on your brass, probably shortening the time before it gets work-hardened to the point of splitting. OTOH, a little bit more flair will make the bullet less likely to bulge off to one side in the case like it sometimes does if it's not quite centered when the seating begins.

bds
March 12, 2013, 08:23 AM
if you check a bunch of factory rounds, you'll find that most of them are also less than .380. This is because the thickness of the case walls at the mouth is often less than the 0.0125 it would take to get a true .380. ---- .355+(2 x .0125)=.380
Many factory rounds use .375" - .376" taper crimp (.355" + .010"/.011") that results in case mouth digging slightly into the copper jacket/plating that look between pictures on the left/center below (pictures not to scale). Some factory rounds now use plated bullets and I am finding more .376" taper crimps being used - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=706260

When I load jacketed bullets, I will add .010" to the diameter of the bullet but when loading plated bullets, I will add .011" so as to not cut into the plating. The amount of taper crimp I use for plated bullets may vary by brand as most plated bullets are sized same as jacketed at .355" but some plated bullets are sized larger at .3555" - .356" and even .357" (Berry's (http://www.berrysmfg.com/products-c58-Berrys_Preferred_Plated_Pistol_Bullets.aspx)/Extreme (http://www.xtremebullets.com/category-s/9666.htm)).

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=173616&d=1350671953

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