Anywho today I and another shooter, somone who I was happy to take on his first shooting trip ever. I, my friend and two other 'kids' were the only ones on the shooting line at the time. Anywho the range guy said because there were so few people there the two of us could call our own ceasefires when we wanted. We'd chain up, put up the flag and wait 4-5 minutes for them to stop firing. Then yaknow go put up targets whatnot.
So about two or so hours into this, my friend is really getting comfortable with my dad's loaned 10/22 and is by now making the paper really suffer. The fellas from down the way using some AK patterned rifle, which had been jamming and yadda yadda all day and was more of a singleshot than anything. These fellas in their fatigues(of course because the paper shoots back!) wander down range. Loaded AK in hand. The range master is with me and my friend and we're talking about trying to dissuade my friend from pulling his shots to the top right. These, gentlemen dont ask..they -demand- my cleaning kit. Now halfly because of the way they asked, and halfly becuase I dont trust them with a screwdriver I politely decline.
Well apparently, the cleaning kit is a life or death situation. I turn back to my buddy as the rangemaster goes to chew these morons out. I hear it getting alittle heated and as I turn the youth raises his AK to point vaguely in the RM's direction at rather close range. So at this point he smoothly steps aside and tells them to leave, as in ten minutes ago. They wanna know why, arguement insues. My marlin 336 has found its way into my lap, barrel downrange of course and the hammer at halfcock. When he makes the bright idea of swinging that thing towards me, finger -on- -the- -triggur- and as I presume..safety off. So looking down the barrel of the AK I leaned to one side've the bench and gave it a swift -slap- well. As you guessed it. It goes off, and slam fires down the whole 30rnd mag. idiot drops it and jumps away. Bullets are goin -everywhere- and I'm scared ????less. AK ends up on the floor empty. I swung my Marlin to bear, the range master wasnt far behind with his M1911. I wasnt hurt, but I do have a baseball cap with a hole in the bill. No ????.
Anywho nobody got hurt save I think I tore just bout every bone in my body tryna slither out've the way of that thing. My friend, is undaunted thankfully. Police came, arrested. I filed a report. In the end, they're in jail now for a myriad of things. Among them assualt with a deadly weapon and attempted murder I'm told. The question I have is. THink I shoulda just popped'em? I prolly coulda gotten away with it legally. I'm not SWAT, I'm not tactical, I'm not L33T. I'm a 19year old who hunts and wants to one day have more guns than socks. In this case as such, I default to those with more experience. What could I have done to avoid this, what could I have done better, what should I have done, what should I -not- have done.
Keep safe ya'll. World's a scary place.
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March 12, 2004, 08:17 PM
As much as they were idiots, I don't think the answer would have been to shoot them.Bad muzzle control, bad weapons handling practices in general,a lousy weapon, and a lousy attitude. But attempted Murder? No.
March 12, 2004, 08:34 PM
You did the right thing in not popping them.
Scary situation though.
Good thing cool heads prevailed.
March 12, 2004, 08:41 PM
shooting them would have cause you a lot of legal trouble, many which you wouldn't need to go through. You did fine, keep you cool and dodgin' those bullets.
Neo only dodged what, 3 bullets? You dodged 30! Take that Matrix! :D
March 12, 2004, 08:52 PM
If you would have "popped" them, you would have a lot more to worry about than whether you just left something out of your statement to the police ;) Your life would have changed at that moment and not necessarily for the better.
The gist of your story is that these guys were boobs with the weapon. They were not intentionally attempting to cause you grievous bodily injury or death (although you may have been dead either way). You may not have had the legal right to pop them... depends on the laws of your state. Generally speaking, I am not aware of any state that would justify a shooting based merely on someone who is being stupid with a firearm absent an intent to harm or kill another, although they perhaps should permit it in some cases.
The irony, of course, is you were just looking for an afternoon of good times with your friend. Glad you are safe.
But look on the bright side. Now you can legitimately call BS when you hear Clint Eastwood saying "that was the sound of an AK-47" to his troops in Heartbreak Ridge....
March 12, 2004, 09:02 PM
Those punks are what give us the bad name ... they are the true ''gun-nuts'' ...... because the term when used on them means ... ''NUTS'' as in irresponsible. Not to mention the extra bad press gained by them having the ''infamous assault weapon''.
No range needs those types ... and whilst they may have a right to own firearms, they sure as hell do NOT have the responsibility to safely do so.
You were I am sure tempted to ''pop em''... but as has been said .. bad move - you would have found your life irrevocably altered and maybe ruined.
The churlish and sadist part of me wishes one had shot the other in the foot .... sorta kept the whole deal ''personal'' instead of hazarding you guys.
They may hopefully and safely I wish .. ''Darwinate'' each other!:p
March 12, 2004, 09:21 PM
You should let the range master hang that hat up as an example for other Darwinians. Glad you're okay.
March 12, 2004, 09:24 PM
No way man, he shoulda worn a hat if he wanted one!
March 12, 2004, 09:35 PM
I had my own situation once where a friend was handling a glock of another friend of mine. I had checked it myself to make sure it wasn't loaded, but when it became time for him to handle it, he just started making gangster-like jokes and holding the gun sideways. Of course he pointed it at my chest while making these jokes, at about 1 foot away. The chill I felt when he did that wasn't very pleasing, but I didn't slap it away. I got a good grip of it at pushed it to a direction that it would have been safe in. Had I been in this situation at the range, I think I would be calm enough to do the same thing.
As for shooting them, well, while it might have been legal for you to pop them, it certainly isn't nice to have to go through the process of defending yourself for doing so. Seeing as the discharge was unintended, I don't think shooting would have been a good idea. At close range I would have moved the barrel to a safe direction. Given the argument, having a weapon ready isn't a bad idea. Either way I would leave or they would leave, I wouldn't have stuck around at that range with them.
In calm thought I think of a few things I might have done differently, but then I wasn't there at the time either. I think you acted appropriately.
March 12, 2004, 09:48 PM
So the AK was chromed?
March 12, 2004, 10:06 PM
Shooting them would have been a very bad idea. The idiot had dropped the weapon and was obviously not in control of it. While you may have been in danger for the time it took to fire off that 30 round mag, once it was dry, you were relatively safe. The idiot was no longer a deadly threat to you, therefore you would have had no legal ground to shoot him. Had you done it, think about the legal ramifications and the likely civil suit brought on by his grief-stricken mom.
You did the right thing.
I hope your friend isn't going to let this bad experience scare him away from the shooting sports. Hopefully he'll understand that it wasn't the normal behavior of shooters. Good luck getting him to stick with the sport.
March 12, 2004, 10:11 PM
Just thinking .. this incident well highlights the need to be vigilant when shooting amongst others. It pays to keep alert and aware.
March 12, 2004, 10:14 PM
Shooting people = problems
March 12, 2004, 10:23 PM
Shooting people = problems Yep ... indictment for homicide.!
I was shooting at the top of Left Hand Canyon when a group of teens and a "borrowed" Llama .45 set up below me. (mistake #1: positioning myself where I couldn't see others).
I loaded up another mag, turned downrange to fire (mistake #2: turning back to other shooters), and when I had finished with the mag, I heard the distinct sound of a round passing overhead.
I turned towards the other group, pulled back my jacket to expose the loaded Glock 19 on my hip to show that I was armed. A few minutes passed, and another round went past. This time, I grabbed a loaded 20 round magazine, turned around, jacked the mag into my Bushmaster shorty, and slapped the mag catch. I held the rifle at a low ready, angled away from the group of future MENSA members. That got their attention, and they wisely chose a new direction for their shots.
I packed up and hauled butt out of there.
Just remember, when you bring a weapon to bear on another human being, be prepared to accept the consequences. There are no second chances, no hope for redemption, no opportunity to say "I'm sorry."
March 12, 2004, 10:30 PM
There are no second chances, no hope for redemption, no opportunity to say "I'm sorry." EXACTLY Capt .. that is the famous ''you can't call the bullet back'' deal ... and I wish some people would be less cavalier in attitude and remember that.
Some do treat things so lightly ... but it behoves us to be vigilant ... everywhere.
March 12, 2004, 11:48 PM
Whenever I've seen people mishandle guns, before or after an SO talks with them I do exactly this: I packed up and hauled butt out of there. I've done it before and I'll probably have to do it again... unfortunately.
To paraphrase El Tejon: A wise man in Tejas once said, "Every bullet has a lawyer attached to it. You best know where yours are going."
March 13, 2004, 12:07 AM
As for my friend wanting to shoot again, yeah he's all over it. He's already called me 3-4 times tonight and bugged me about it. I'm not shy about going again but I think I need alittle time to collect myself. That and prefably a third person to come with. If I had kept my eyes on the situation as it developed and not worried about him being so damned worried about recoil I guess I could've defused it or...well something.
I dont know maybe I'm light hearted, or maybe its just because I've seen what a 7.62x39mm R can do to a 300lb buck. I guess the fact that I was like oh...20-30 minutes away from the nearest hospital was rattling around in the back've my skull. As for my behavior, I'm not sure I did the right thing. I put my buddy at risk cuz I didnt wanna let the idiots flatten my new bore brushes and dump half a quart've hoppes into their peice. Then again, maybe nomatter what I did could've changed stuff. I dunno. I dont know how LEOs and stuff deal with this stuff. I cant sit still even now, my heart still skips a beat when I rub a finger over the hole they put in my hat. I mean another inch and...
I guess the realization that luck alone is the sole reason for my continueing existance is playing with my soul abit here. I went to another shooting range since and tried to cool off by dumping about 300rnds through my Marlin but it hasnt done much but give me a fat bruise and a hurt checkbook.
I dunno, I've been shot at before(I hunt, enough said) but it never rattled me like this. Even returned fire once but nothing has -ever- pulled me like this. If I keep this up I'm gonna go grey before I can drink so, I think I'm gonna buy another gun. :)
March 13, 2004, 12:20 AM
Don't shoot'em, smack'em around with the butt of your rifle. ;)
March 13, 2004, 12:26 AM
What an amazing coincidence that this happened to you just two days after you joined up here!
What a tale!
Which range, exactly, did this happen at? Which department's police responded? Did you get an incident number? Did it make the TV news? Think it'll be in the newspaper tomorrow?
March 13, 2004, 12:34 AM
Well, sir. I've been lurking for quite awhile here and only recently joined to ask a question about my style of Lever action shooting. Though I have the information you seek, I see no need to report it. Why, frankly I dont enjoy being called a liar, ontop of which I dont feel comfortable giving that sort've stuff out. With the 'security' of our modern justice system I've no doubt it would be easy to find the report with alittle effort. As for the news and such, I find this doubtful. No heroics, nobody died, heck nobody was hurt. The whole point of me telling this isnt to tell a story, well perhaps it is but of another sort. I made -mistakes-. If you want tall tales I can produce those in spades at the drop of the hat, I hardly see any point however in debassing myself when I have the option of fiction at my disposal. Really, if I was gonna make something up. I think I could come up with something better than an Ak bouncing around and nobody getting hurt. Please, I'd like to think as a art student that I have the creativity to slip in some Kung-fu, car chases and thousand yard shots with my open sighted white box .30-30 deer rifle.
If you want something from somone, insulting them isnt an effective manner to fetch it.
March 13, 2004, 12:56 AM
Sorry you feel that way. We've had too many BS artists come around with stories later proven to be false. Alan Fud, for example.
Your "story" doesn't pass the sniff test. Your reluctance to verify it in any way doesn't do anything to improve its odor.
Heck, it COULD have happened, I guess. I just find it too hard to give credence to.
And I wasn't asking you for anything. I just figured that if it happened, which I doubted, you would have no cause not to answer at least one of the identifying questions.
As it is, you have only confirmed my judgement that your story is probably a load of... well, imagination.
Feel free to prove me wrong. You can do it through a PM to me, or to ANY trusted member of this board. If you've lurked for a long time, you know who they are.
March 13, 2004, 01:05 AM
The point is dude, the burden of proof should be on you that its B.S. You wanna call me out, yeah ok I'll respect that. Unless ya'll can supply proof I'm a liar, then I think its best you keep quiet. If ya'll aint got truth, or somethin nice to say I dont need to hear it.
March 13, 2004, 01:15 AM
Wonder why the rifle that had been jamming and yadda yadda all day and was more of a singleshot than anything suddenly goes off, and slam fires down the whole 30rnd mag?
Also wonder why they're both in jail. Seems like it would be hard enough to jail a guy on an attempted murder charge for having an ND--somehow they managed to jail his buddy too.
I would have liked to see you when you swung my Marlin to bear while at the same time you tore just bout every bone in my body tryna slither out've the way of that thing.
I would also liked to have see the hole get shot in the brim of the baseball cap--from your description I can't figure out how that could have happened.
In the future you might want to avoid slapping the muzzle of a loaded gun that is pointed your way.
March 13, 2004, 01:22 AM
Hat, and my jacket were on the floor. Its an outdoor range and there wasnt anyplace to hang either. As for slithering. I had the rifle in my lap, AK goes off after I slapped the rifle. I ended up jumpin up onto the bench, which is slithering as far as I'm concerned.
As for what was going on with the AK, I have no idea. I dont pretend to be a gunsmith. You'll have to defualt to an AK expert(plenty abouts) to ask about that one. Its also possible something else was going on. I dunno maybe some billy bob full auto conversion or something? I know how my rifle works, I know how to keep it in good repair. I have no idea how everyone elses rifle works, my only experience with anything that wasnt either a lever or bolt action is my dad's 10/22.
I came here to learn, I wont profess to teach.
As for slapping the AK, well yeah that was retarded but I was scared. So, I did what I thought was right at the time. In retrospect, it wasnt. I dont make a habit of having guns pointed at me so what can I say. Stupid ???? happens.
March 13, 2004, 03:28 AM
As I was reading down the thread I was wondering how to go about asking about some of the same things that MPAYNE asked, without stepping on anyones toes. I am sure he and I are not the only ones with ?????????????????
March 13, 2004, 03:38 AM
Ah well. It would seem my cautionary tale has jumped tracks. I really -dont- want to start a flame war so lets just kill the thread. Last thing I wanna do is pick a fight.
March 13, 2004, 03:58 AM
They could have bayoneted you.
Seriously though, an attempted murder with a "FullAutoAK47AssaultWeapon" had to make the papers. Can you refer us to an article? I believe you, I just want to see the newspaper's spin on it.
March 13, 2004, 05:07 AM
If it did happen,you can understand why he would rather maintain his annonymity then become the new "starwars internet kid"...
If it didn't happen he would rather maintain his annonymity as well.
Stranger things have happened.
I once had a "friend" point a loaded .357 Ruger single action at me,with his finger on the trigger:mad:
This guy swears he is really into "gun safety" too:barf:
I was out in the desert once and just couldn't hit this can I had set up on a fence post,I kept getting closer and closer,I finally hit it,and heard the ricochet zing right by my forehead:eek:
I was wearing my NRA hat,alas no bullet holes.
wait!!! I once had a ND into my radio,I shot a fed hydra shok through my boom box and it kept on working! (9mm) ...I later showed Jim March my radio with the bullet hole!!
I have proof!!!!
March 13, 2004, 05:38 AM
so the AK was chromed?
sounds like it had "da switch", too! :what: :neener: :what:
March 13, 2004, 05:47 AM
Posted by Mpayne: ... Sorry you feel that way. We've had too many BS artists come around with stories later proven to be false. Alan Fud, for example ... Proven to be false? Show me one story that was PROVEN to be false! Before you accuse people of lying, I suggest that you are certain of your facts otherwise you are taking the low road.
March 13, 2004, 06:26 AM
just got a SKS that was loadedwith Cosmolene...I mean loaded. Acted real "strange" until cleaned.
Mebbe...just a thought.
March 13, 2004, 07:56 AM
I cant sit still even now, my heart still skips a beat when I rub a finger over the hole they put in my hat. I mean another inch and...
Hat, and my jacket were on the floor.
If they were on the floor, "another inch and...", and what? :scrutiny:
March 13, 2004, 08:00 AM
If they were on the floor, "another inch and...", and what?
I was thinking the same thing Tamara...
Another inch and your favorite Members Only jacket would have been toast or what?
March 13, 2004, 08:00 AM
Just a reminder, folks, personal attacks are prohibited on THR. If you would like to ask civil questions, go ahead. If you want to call another member a liar, don't do it here. Take it to PM or email, if you must.
"Arthur," said Ford "Hello? Yes?" said Arthur. "Just believe everything I tell you, and it will all be very, very simple." "Ah, well I'm not sure I believe that." -- Douglas Adams
March 13, 2004, 08:06 AM
Maybe we should just wait it out. If it's true then I'd imagine it should turn up in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch Police Blotter Section (http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/neighborhoods/stories.nsf/bydocid/75F05742C605EE6686256E52007FFEBC?OpenDocument&highlight=2%2Cpolice%2Cblotter ) near the end of this month or the beginning of next.
KaceCoyote: Please just post the link here when it shows up in the Dispatch Police Blotter section.
March 13, 2004, 08:32 AM
I would've thought he'd be here by now! LOL!
Apple a Day
March 13, 2004, 09:15 AM
I think gunsmith has definitive proof that the 9mm round in just not enough cartridge:
"I once had a ND into my radio,I shot a fed hydra shok through my boom box and it kept on working! (9mm) "
Now if it had been a .45 and you'd just hit the antenae the whole thing would have fallen over dead from the shock.
I figure as long as we're arguing...
March 13, 2004, 11:10 AM
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