45 ACP Primer Pocket


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stodd
March 10, 2013, 09:28 PM
Hello,

Is there a big difference in the small pistol size primer pocket and the large primer pockets on 45 ACP brass? I have about 800 45 ACP brass and some of them have small primer pockets.

Thanks.

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BullfrogKen
March 10, 2013, 09:35 PM
Uh yeah.

The large pistol primers won't fit into a small primer pocket.

blarby
March 10, 2013, 09:40 PM
And the small ones just fall out in the big ones :D

Its a disaster.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=649476

I think falls under my third example :D

John3921
March 10, 2013, 09:53 PM
Small pistol primer diameter = 0.175"

Small pistol primer pocket diameter = 0.173" to 0.1745"

Large pistol primer diameter = 0.212"

Large pistol pocket diameter = 0.2085" to 0.210"

The primer is supposed to be 0.0005" to 0.002" larger than the pocket.

The difference in large and small is 0.037" - which is more than the thickness of a credit card.

john

TBH
March 10, 2013, 09:53 PM
Obviously you need to separate them. I would think the only issues between the two is you need be careful working up loads due to the different primers.

Good luck,

dsm
March 10, 2013, 10:03 PM
I heard the small primer 45 acp uses special primers that have something to do with controlling lead. Not sure the story, but definitely a pain to deal with when buying once fired brass.

mdi
March 10, 2013, 10:20 PM
Google "small vs large primers in 45 ACP", a much discussed topic for the last 10-12 months. No difference in load data, small vs large primers. Standard small pistol primers, of any manyfacture are used.

orionengnr
March 10, 2013, 10:23 PM
They make picking up range brass a pain--you have to separate the LPP from the SPP.

If you are just starting to reload, and also load .380/9mm/.40/.38 etc., then collecting (or trading for) the SPP .45acp brass can be an advantage in that you don't have to change your primer set-up, and you only need to buy one type of primer.

If you already have thousands of .45 acp brass, and you try to pick up your own brass, and get some others mixed in...well, I cuss Federal and others out regularly. It is possible to see the difference with the naked eye, but takes a bit of practice, and my eyes aren't as young as they used to be.

Fishslayer
March 11, 2013, 12:39 AM
They make picking up range brass a pain--you have to separate the LPP from the SPP.


I've always sorted by headstamp so the SPP aren't particularly bothersome. With the component shortage I like that I could use SPP or SRP for .45.

The latest problem I've come across is that the silver colored SPP "look" bigger so are hard to tell from LPP sometimes depending on the brass...:banghead:

I recently learned that some of the earlier SPP were actually crimped. It's always something...

Rom828
March 11, 2013, 12:44 AM
I just de-prime 'em and dump them in the tumbler. I then sort by headstamp and primer size. If I have a bunch of small primers on hand, I'll load those up and vice-versa. Since the beginning of time 45acp has been manufactured in both.

holdencm9
March 11, 2013, 12:45 AM
Just take your primer pocket tool and use the large-primer side, and quickly go through all the brass just sticking it in. If it doesn't go in, you've got small primer pockets. Sort them out that way. Eventually you will be able to tell just by looking, but that is not as foolproof.

gahunter12
March 11, 2013, 02:50 PM
I sort out my SPP .45 cases, and store them away in big Folgers containers. I had about 2500 saved for emergency times, but ended up trading away 1500 of them for 1500 LPP .45 cases. I meet a reloader at a IDPA match that has switched to SPP cases to reduce the # of different primers he keeps on hand. I figured I would hang on to some for a just in case situation. Besides I usually bring home a couple hundred .45, and 9mm cases along with my .40's I shoot at matches.

As a reloader I have learned to not leave brass on the ground. I picked up brass of all calibers. It makes good trading fodder. I just made a trade with a good friend in January: I had about 4,000 9mm cases cleaned that I traded him for 3,500 .223/.556, and 1,200 .40s&w cases. He's retired, and goes out to the range at his gun club to collect brass after pistol, and carbine training classes.

mljdeckard
March 11, 2013, 11:08 PM
Yep. Save them and prime them with the 9mms. Actually, I've gotten to the point I just glance at them as I feed them to the hand primer and throw the small-pocket ones in a pile.

jjjitters
March 11, 2013, 11:17 PM
I prefer them!! The 45 is one of the only high count calibers I reload that uses large primers, so I end up with keeping a quantity of those on hand also.
Several loads I've played with have shot better using small primers than any of the large ones. They have a bit larger flash hole, I think that has something to do with it.

Any cases that have NT in the h/s will usually be crimped ones.

gerrym526
March 11, 2013, 11:20 PM
Think you're dealing with brass from Winchester Winclean ammo, which has smaller primers than the ones usually found with 45ACP brass. I shot my Winclean to get rid of it, and didn't save the brass to reload. This was after I tried priming with standard large pistol primers and found they didn't work on brasss I had kept.

My concern was that I couldn't find any load data in the manuals in my library showing the use of small pistol primers for 45ACP.

You may find data that you can use for reloading, however.

jjjitters
March 11, 2013, 11:25 PM
You use the same data as with LP, no differences. Drop charge a bit to test first, but all of mine are identical.

Fishslayer
March 11, 2013, 11:31 PM
Think you're dealing with brass from Winchester Winclean ammo, which has smaller primers than the ones usually found with 45ACP brass. I shot my Winclean to get rid of it, and didn't save the brass to reload. This was after I tried priming with standard large pistol primers and found they didn't work on brasss I had kept.

My concern was that I couldn't find any load data in the manuals in my library showing the use of small pistol primers for 45ACP.

You may find data that you can use for reloading, however.

Ditto jjjjjitters. Use the same data unless you're fooling around on the ragged edge of maximums, then load up.

Hate to tell ya this, but Federal, CCI, Blazer & others also have SPP ammo out.

exbrit49
March 11, 2013, 11:59 PM
I find a lot of 45 Spp and I sort it and keep it in separate boxes labeled small pistol.
As far as loading with the small pistol primers, I loaded a few up a little lighter and worked back up to my normal charge. using a chrono I found that the velocity didn't vary by more than 25 to 40 fps between the large pistol and small pistol, so I use the one loading and just keep the brass separated.
Pretty easy to do really. When I am going to shoot 45 acp I take all of one primer size. I use a brass catcher so getting range brass mixed in isn't an issue.
Work up a load and use them.
Have Fun
Roger

ArchAngelCD
March 12, 2013, 12:19 AM
Except for the obvious difference in primers used in each there is absolutely no difference in charge weights or accuracy from what I see. I have SPP .45 ACP brass from Federal and Winchester and I use both. All I do is load them and keep them together so on one day all the brass I shoot is SPP brass.

Trent
March 12, 2013, 01:35 AM
SPP 45 ACP has to be the worst idea I've ever heard of.

Can it be shot with SPP? Sure.

Does it cause endless frustration sorting brass, and stoppages on progressive presses when you miss one?

Absolutely.

rdhood
March 12, 2013, 09:47 AM
Is there a big difference in the small pistol size primer pocket and the large primer pockets on 45 ACP brass?

Hmm... one is a small primer pocket, for small pistol primers, and one is a large primer pocket, for large pistol primers?

rdhood
March 12, 2013, 09:48 AM
SPP 45 ACP has to be the worst idea I've ever heard of.

SPP 45 ACP has to be one of the best ideas I've ever heard of. Send them all to me!

mdi
March 12, 2013, 02:02 PM
The key to using small pistol primers in 45 ACP is visual inspection. Use yer eyeballs. I inspect each case I reload, sometimes it takes a while, but I feel it is a necessary part of reloading. There are other defects tha show up, with a visual inspection than primer pocket sizes (I even found a spider nest with bug debries/carcasses in a .45 ACP case). If you are in too much of a hurry, or want ammo "untouched by human hands" and just want to dump a bunch in your auto-progrossive machine, then expect trouble...

kerreckt
March 12, 2013, 02:06 PM
All the same to me. I clean sort and reload....no big deal.

mljdeckard
March 12, 2013, 02:10 PM
There is something to post #23. Shouldn't we be inspecting cases AT LEAST that thoroughly?

GCBurner
March 12, 2013, 02:13 PM
I deprime them all with a Lee universal depriming die before they go in the tumbler to be cleaned, then sort, trim, and reprime with a hand primer of the appropriate size. I took the depriming pin out of the sizing die on my progressive loader, and the priming ram, and just run them all through together. I prefer the feel of hand priming the cases, anyway, as priming on the progressive is one of the things that is prone to problems, particularly if the primer feed runs empty.

ReloaderFred
March 12, 2013, 02:13 PM
It's not a new idea, and it's going to be here from now on. Just be glad you've got brass to reload. There is Small Pistol Primed .45 brass from CCI/Speer, Blazer (also CCI/Speer), Federal, Winchester, Fiocchi, et. al.

The same data is used with either primer and magnum primers aren't needed when using small pistol primers for the small amount of powder the .45 acp requires. If you weren't inspecting your brass before, you should have been........

Hope this helps.

Fred

GCBurner
March 12, 2013, 02:16 PM
One plus to the small primer .45 cases - back before the current ammo shortage, people at the range wouldn't bother picking up the brass Blazer small-primed cases, so I've wound up with a bunch or it. :D

glock40sw23
March 12, 2013, 08:32 PM
wish i had a range where my problem was picking up extra brass with wrong primer size, most ranges pay more attention to someone picking up brass than they do to safe gun handling.

109Hammer
March 12, 2013, 10:56 PM
Uh yeah.

The large pistol primers won't fit into a small primer pocket.
Hold on. Let me write that down ;)

Trent
March 13, 2013, 04:00 AM
There is something to post #23. Shouldn't we be inspecting cases AT LEAST that thoroughly?

Yeah, but if you aren't accustomed to checking for something, you won't see it.

I went through something similar to this recently with 9mm. I'd accumulated some 60,000+ cases over the years. Started going through it finally when I found I couldn't buy ammo anymore - divided in to two lots of about 30k.

Separating out S&B steel cased was easy. Used a magnet.

Then I ran across another problem on the progressive, and looked up the headstamp. Found that I had a brand of European brass that had small flash holes, too small for my decapping die (boxer, but the flash hole was much smaller).

So I went through 30k rounds again. (Second time I went through them all).

Then I ran across another problem - tight primer pockets on another brand. So I went through all of the brass AGAIN (this is now the third time I went through 30k casings). I culled those AND this time I went through and pulled each unique headstamp out of the batch, so I could look the rest of them up.

Found out I had some Norinco crap brass mixed in, and some other undesirables (A MERC, etc). So I have to go back through the 30k lot AGAIN to pull those out. This is now the 4th time I've gone through the 30k batch.

And I'm STILL finding the occasional soft-chinese guppy belly, or AMERC brass with a flash hole off center, or a GECO headstamp with a small flash hole that sticks my press.

Moral of the story? After 4 times through the 30k rounds there's still brass I missed, and I was looking SPECIFICALLY for a certain headstamp. Probably something so minor as my brain telling my hand to throw a cull in the wrong bin. (As I found some W*W 9mm in the BAD bin, which tells me that very likely an equal amount of bad brass ended up in the GOOD bin.)

Just a little neuron misfiring to make my hand toss the brass the wrong direction. Or my eyes lying to me.

So I've got a bin full of 50,000 45 ACP brass I've collected over the years, 98% 1x, shot by me personally, the rest range pickups that I got when policing my brass.

Some have small pistol primers.

Find them. Oh, and don't miss any. Certainly your eyes will NEVER lie to you about the diameter of the hole you are seeing, going through 50K+ rounds.

NOW you see why I'm not happy about this crap?

They used one size primer for 100 years and for NO GOOD REASON (it ain't broke) they decide to CHANGE it?!

To hell with that. That's a bad engineering choice no matter what. There's one cardinal rule of ammunition standards. They are STANDARDS, meant to keep everything the same.

mljdeckard
March 13, 2013, 12:56 PM
I suppose it makes a difference if you are using a progressive press. I'm using a hand primer tool, I'm already handling and inspecting every case as I prime it anyway.

ReloaderFred
March 13, 2013, 01:28 PM
I've got a .45 acp case headstamped 1954 that has a small pistol primer. It's been used in other parts of the world for years. It's also rumored, but I haven't confirmed, that John Browning first designed the .45 acp case with a small primer, but the Army insisted on a large primer.

Ranting on and on about the switch to small primers in .45 acp isn't going to do any good, since they're here to stay. I'm not saying that it's good or bad, just that it's reality. Either deal with it, or don't. That's your decision.

I just simply sort out the small pistol primed .45 brass and when I get about a thousand, then I load them up, just like the rest of the .45 brass I've got. I'm not new to this game, and I've seen a lot of changes over the years. I've seen the change from large pistol primers in .38 Special/.357 Magnum to small pistol primers, but I'm betting that the majority of reloaders have never even seen a large pistol primed .38 Special case. Stuff happens and you adapt..... Or not.

Hope this helps.

Fred

James2
March 13, 2013, 01:56 PM
Yep, its a pain, but you do have to sort them. I have just been tossing the small primed ones in a bag and haven't loaded any. I have plenty of brass without them. It is only a problem when I shoot at a public range and pick up some range brass since my own reloads are all large primed.

JSmith
March 13, 2013, 06:18 PM
Is there a big difference in the small pistol size primer pocket and the large primer pockets on 45 ACP brass?

Big enough that primers for one won't work in the other. I now have small pistol magnum primers for the small-pocket .45ACP that showed up on my bench a few weeks back. S'ok, though, 'cause I can use those in the .357 too.

bogon48
March 13, 2013, 10:19 PM
Like some of the other guys, I sort and inspect my brass by hand, and hand prime as well. So, I'm happy with whatever brass I can get these days. Thought I'd laid up a decent supply of LPP and SPP cases. I was wrong, though. Never thought reloading components would get this scarce or costly.

mike.h
March 13, 2013, 10:24 PM
All the same to me. I clean sort and reload....no big deal.


this

Fishslayer
March 14, 2013, 03:08 AM
, or a GECO headstamp with a small flash hole that sticks my press.


Learn something new every day. GECO has always gone into my "others" bag with the odds & sods that I don't find enough of to make a batch.

Now they'll join the Amerc in the scrap can. ;)

ReloaderFred
March 14, 2013, 12:01 PM
I load Geco brass just fine. If using a Dillon sizing/decapping die, Dillon has the largest diameter decapping pin in the business. I've measured them all and they all vary in diameter.

If you're not using a Dillon die, then chances are your Geco brass will decap just fine.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Trent
March 14, 2013, 10:22 PM
Regarding small flash holes, you can also uniform them. I do this on all of my rifle brass for bolt actions; and picked up another one to use on handguns. The one I have takes a bushing on the shank to "fit" it to different straight wall cartridges / lengths.

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