[Deadman]

Just saw police video footage on that Maury Povich show, where two police officers had pulled over two felons. Each leo was talking to one of the felons separately. One at the driver side door, the other at the rear of the felons vehicle.
The felon at the door attempted to wrench the leo's pistol from his holster, the leo immediatly began to struggle to retain his pistol. During the struggle, and while the pistol was pointing towards the ground, the 1st round was fired.
By this time the felon and leo at the rear of the vehicle had stepped back, and once the 1st round had been fired both felons began to run away. The police officer engaged in the struggle then proceeded to fire at the fleeing felons (the 2nd shot could have hit the other leo). Initially from a distance of one foot to maybe an off camera distance of 5 yards. He effectively fired all the rounds in his pistol, the 2nd leo fired a few shots as well.
The narrator stated that 15 or 16 shots were fired in total, all of which missed.

Now while I've heard of stories where police officers conduct some form of spray and pray, which results in either misses or only grazing hits before, to actually see it occur, to see the close distances and the high rate of fire involved in that instance gives such events a whole new perspective.
(Of course I also understand that every situation is unique and one event doesn't necessarily prove anything in particular. ).

[Route666]

Hehehe, do you have a link to this video?

[mete]

The NYPD study of a couple of years ago showed , in actual shootouts , that they hit the target 10% of the time. Most of the problem is poor training. Yes some of the shootouts caught on tape are frightening !

[Deadman]

No I don't have a link as it was on TV (Foxtel).

[agtman]

Geez, ... say it ain't so .... :eek:


Most shots (85%?) fired by LEOs in gunfights MISS their intended target(s), and then fly off - or richochet off - to God-knows-where. And guess what they're missing with in most cases? Hi-cap 9mms.

So the big picture seems to be: lots of 9mm rounds get fired quickly, the vast majority of which miss, and the few hits that do occur only seldom put the BG down right now. :rolleyes:

Well, at least it beats hearing the usual doom and gloom nonsense about "overpenetration" directed at the big bore calibers (.40/10mm/.45).

[armabill]

No shots are misses! They are hitting. Maybe not the intended target but they are not missing something somewhere.

Once the bullet leaves the barrel, it impacts on something.

[hksw]

Huh. You guys don't remember that one shoot where a suspect ran around a roadblock down a street in a RESIDENTIAL neighborhood (looked to be middle class) with MANY police and media on BOTH sides of the street and both sides of the gauntlet shooting at the vehicle as it sped by. Can't remember the number of shots that hit the suspect but it was well below the number of shot fired. (Suspect did not shoot.)

[DigMe]

Heh...and people worry about "overpenetration." :rolleyes:

brad cook

[Black Majik]

I thought you're not suppose to shoot at someone if they're running away from you? Isn't shooting someone in the back a big no-no for LEO's?

[DontShootMe]

I've heard it's okay to shoot people in the back if they are felons fleeing a police officer.

[Bart Noir]

Richard, the guy tried to kill a cop. At that point he is most assuredly "an imminent threat" to the whole community and we do pay officers to apprehend such people. Makes no matter if there is a fresh bullet hole in the perp at time of apprehension. I guess in this case neither happened, drat it.

Bart Noir

[sundance43.5]

The main source of juris prudence regarding police officers' use of deadly force on suspects is Tennesse v. Garner, which basically states that police can shoot a fleeing suspect if he has committed or is suspected of committing a violent crime and/or poses a significant threat to others.

Chris

[Standing Wolf]

Only cops need guns.

[Ankeny]

So tell me, how many gunfights have you guys been in and how did you do?

[cool45auto]

Only cops need guns
:scrutiny: ;)

[V-fib]

What time of day was this encounter? Looks like a situation where perhaps use of CT laser grips would have produced better results. Its too bad that more police depts. aren’t aware of these valuable tools. Just a couple days ago I was talking to a couple of State officers and they never heard of them.

My .02
:cool:

[PO2Hammer]

I doesn't happen with just high cap 9mm's. When A california LEO (don't remember which city) drew his six shot .357 magnum, he shot all six rounds into the pavement before he got his revolver in line with the perp. I think we under-estimate what stress our LEO's are under. They have my respect and gratitude.
I'm sorry but the 'hehehe' response just ticks me off. I spent eight years in the Navy and was in many hairy situations in the mid-east, but you couldn't pay me enough money to be a large city cop these days.

[Delmar]

Only cops need guns
The rest of us need Kevlar:evil:

[Jim March]

The idea to shoot was legally and morally proper.

The execution of the concept sucked :scrutiny:.

[goalie]

So tell me, how many gunfights have you guys been in and how did you do?

Too many, and I am alive (and my pants are laundered). That was good enough for me. Is there some kind of scorecard or something? Maybe one of those cards that they stamp so after a dozen you get one free???

:D

[Route666]

I don't understand why you are offended by it, you have no idea what I was thinking of, or implying when I said it. Sorry for offending you.

Always look on the bright side of life, or you may not need your gun to protect you, you'll have died of stress.

[Tom Bri]

Maybe the old european police had the right idea. Shoot a small caliber round out of a full sized gun. Better a hit with a .32 than twn misses with 9 mil, .40 etc.

I'd guess it is a lot easier to shoot those small caliber guns accurately.

[berettaman]

The comedian Ron White does a bit about that shoot out that is drop dead funny.:D

[VaughnT]

The caliber of the weapon is irrelevant. Just like for normal joes, training is what makes the difference.

Look at it like football; every single team practices on a weakly basis and most of them don't make the playoffs. Some have better training, or more inventive training, than the others. But they all train regularly and go on to the field knowing what they can expect.

Cops and most CCW'ers don't train monthly, let alone weekly, and they perform as you might expect when the starting bell sounds.

In a situation like this, where you are wondering if you'll live to see your wife and kids one more time, most everything you know flies out the window as you struggle for your life. Even if there is never an intent on the badguys part to kill you, you don't know that and are operating at pucker-factor 10.

We can all laugh at their reported inaccuracy, but I'd be very curious to see how the majority of people on this board do in just such a situation.

[TechBrute]

So tell me, how many gunfights have you guys been in and how did you do? Luckily, if we are ever in a gunfight, these guys are setting the bar nice and low for comparison. $5 says that they only have the minimum required department training.

[Newton]

If that's what passes for a good shoot these days, we've got problems.

Only one guy grabbed for the gun, the other 2 panicked when they heard the shot. I have no doubt that they were up to no good, but I don't see they deserved to die for that.

It is in our collective interest to make sure that LEOs are held to as high a standard as reasonably possible before they clear leather.

A recent case here in Baltimore involved a teen who was shot in the face with an M4. He was shot because he was undoing his seatbelt after being told to exit his vehicle, it was a case of mistaken identity. Nevertheless, it was ruled to be a good shooting because of the "suspicious movement".


Newton

[TechBrute]

So the big picture seems to be: lots of 9mm rounds get fired quickly, the vast majority of which miss, and the few hits that do occur only seldom put the BG down right now. Sources for this?

[Ankeny]

So tell me, how many gunfights have you guys been in and how did you do?

OK, let me spell it out. That comment was intended to remind all who post that unless you were in that situation, you have no idea how you would react or what the outcome would be. Every time I read a critique of a shooting from some keyboard quarter back who has never been between the proverbial "rock and a hard spot"...oh never mind.

[TechBrute]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So tell me, how many gunfights have you guys been in and how did you do?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



OK, let me spell it out. That comment was intended to remind all who post that unless you were in that situation, you have no idea how you would react or what the outcome would be. Every time I read a critique of a shooting from some keyboard quarter back who has never been between the proverbial "rock and a hard spot"...oh never mind. Well, what we DO know is how these guys did... How I'll do in a gunfight really has no bearing on how these guys did, now does it? Are you implying that we "keyboard commandos" shouldn't expect better than "spray and pray" unless we've been in a gunfight ourselves?:scrutiny:

[orangeninja]

I think during training we were given some stats. Something like 15% of shots actually will hit the target during a shootout and of that only 5% end in fatality. The numbers vary, I have heard that less than 10ft. away you have a 50/50 chance of getting shot.

Does everyone remember about 6 months ago when that guy in Cali tried to shoot that lawyer with a revolver in front of the news cameras. 5 shots fired at less than 3 feet, none fatal. That lawyer was bobbing and weaving. Now imagine that target fleeing as fast as possible doing that. Chances are you are not going to hit him.

[TechBrute]

Chances are you are not going to hit him. I'd like to draw a distinction between the fat guy with no training and one arm in a sling, and the police. I'd also like to draw a distinction between not getting a hit while taking a near impossible shot, and spraying and praying. If you are 10 feet away and don't get a hit, it's your training and ability to handle the stress. I'm not saying that I wouldn't lose it, but anyone can hit something 10 feet away, right? If you can't do it under stress, it's not actually your skill level.

[Ankeny]

Are you implying that we "keyboard commandos" shouldn't expect better than "spray and pray" unless we've been in a gunfight ourselves?

Nope, didn't say that did I. Of course, a good keyboard commando always wins and could out draw Rob Leatham in a real gunfight. ;)

[TechBrute]

I wish... :D

[Mannlicher]

Those cops in NY that shot that guy in the stairwell, fired over 70 rounds, at point blank range. Only 6 hit the guy. What a joke. These were New York's Best. A special squad. God help us all if Al Quida ever strikes with guns, the cops will die like flies.

[arinvolvo]

i have seen this video..the whole thing went down with the grace of a donkey.

Imagine taking a step backwards, and tripping, and as you are stumbling, raise one hand and empty your magazine in the general direction of a fleeing felon..

that is about what it looked like...it was keystone cops.

[orangeninja]

"i have seen this video..the whole thing went down with the grace of a donkey."

As anyone who has watched many police shooting tapes....you will notice that they are all ackward, unbalanced, fast, stressful and have the grace of a farting hippo. Just the way it is. Now if Keanu Reeves could just teach us how to shoot.:rolleyes:

[Ukraine Train]

I think I know the video, I saw it a long time ago. I remember the suspect's name is Chevy Keyhoe (almost sounds like chevy keyhole haha). Anyway, they were driving a Suburban and the two officers being on opposits sides couldn't see each other and when the SHTF the second officer didn't know what was going on and seemed to be confused for a second. I can't remember but didn't they find an arsenal in the back of the truck?

[Kamicosmos]

I am reminded of the scene in Pulp Fiction, after the guy runs out of the bathroom shooting, and misses our heros'. And Vince is talking about it in the car:
(paraphrasing here, of course)

I saw this bit on Cops, where this guy just unloaded on this dude, and didn't hit nothing. I mean, it's freaky, but it happens.

Oh, That movie is so quotable!

[MrAcheson]

Heh...and people worry about "overpenetration."

Actually, all the law enforcement ammunition analyses I have seen discount overpenetration for just this reason. Why worry about it if the majority of shots fired are going to miss and hit what is behind the target anyway? All the overpenetration concerns I have read are by ammunition laymen.

As an aside, how many of us train to hit a moving, running, dodging target with a pistol? Not very many I'd wager. Guess what? Most real shootings are more like that than punching stationary paper. Next time you want to simulate real shooting conditions, run a couple laps and then up to the line to fire. See if you hit anything. Now do that again but with a moving target. Lets see how good you really are.

[deleteall]

There was a "shootout" in the Seattle area couple years ago that was truly scary. Cop car gets stolen and in trying to find the guy two real cop cars get into an accident and each think the other is the BG. Lots of shots fired-no one hit.

[munk]

Ankeny;

I've been in two situations where I could reasonably be expected to pull a gun. My life was in danger. I did in one and did not in another. I was cool both times. However- that doesn't mean I'd be 'cool' every time.

I think the worst thing must be listening to other people's guns firing. That would spook me. It would be hard to tell what was going on. Just seeing someone beside you spraying would be enough to get your own trigger too loose.

However, a lot of the folks in the gun community I'd trust under pressure. Many of them I'd trust more than Cops or Military per say

When they switched to semi auto from the revolver the shots fired to hit went way up. I don't think it's ever come back down to what it was.

munk

[munk]

Does anyone know the percentage of military in combat who actually fire their weapons, and those who actually fire and aim their weapons? The numbers are sobering.


munk

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------
Does anyone know the percentage of military in combat who actually fire their weapons, and those who actually fire and aim their weapons? The numbers are sobering.
---------------------------------------------

The idea that soldiers in combat don't shoot comes from SLA Marshall, who is known to have faked his data.

In Viet Nam, I assure you, EVERYBODY shot. The trick was to teach them HOW to shoot.

I used to set up an "enemy positkion" with C-ration cartons placed "tactically" (where an enemy might be, and concealed, but not under cover.)

Then we'd do an exercise with engineer tape stretched between two poles -- the lower tape represented the point where the soldiers in the friendly position could be sure there were no enemies, and the upper tape represented the point above which there could be no enemy.

If you try this, from the prone position, you'll get a box about 3 front-sights high. The poles represent the left and right limits of the squad sector.

Carefully-spaced shooting into this "box" will produce hits. If you have clues (smoke, flash, bushes moving, etc.) you'll get more.

I used to have officers and NCOs carry solid tracer to mark limits and control fire, and charged $50 for firing full auto.

[munk]

I don't know Marshal, but do know the US Army keeps track of things like that and has figures for the modern wars of how many shoot in any given engagement.
If I am wrong in this- than I've been led astray.

munk

[Vern Humphrey]

The US Army data prior to Viet Nam was based on two "studies," both by SLA Marshall, in WWII and Korea. We now know Marshall fabricated his data.

Studies in Viet Nam showed virtually everyone fired, and the problem was not people failing to fire, but getting controlled, effective fire.

[munk]

Thanks, I hope that is correct. It doesn't stand the test of common sense to believe everyone fires, but reading reports of only 30% or whatever were shocking.

munk

[XLMiguel]

I have a good friend and former neighbor who was pretty high up in the Secret Service before he retired. Among his assignments was doing after action QA analysis of shooting incidents, and I have heard some pretty silly stories from him about large amounts of shots fired with NO hits. Heard a lot of tragic stuff, too.

CQB, when it gets to slippin' and a slidin', creepin, and a hidin' in the heat of battle, is highly unpredictable, and despite some well trained participants (at least the few agents I know and have seen shoot), strange things happen. Until you've been there (and I sure haven't), ya just don't know - :rolleyes:

[The_Shootist]

I'm not sure what the big deal is....remember the OK Corral gunfight? Sure ya do:D

The way I heard it, 9 guys, standing 10 FEET (not yards) away from each other discharged 30 shots in 30 secs.....and 75% of them were misses.

A gunfight is a stressfull encounter hopefully none of us will ever have to go through (as much as it may be entertaining to dryly discuss the theory and practice of from the comfort of our computer screens :evil: ).

But can anyone really swear how they would perform once the elephant comes wandering by? Despite how much training or how many courses they take? When the realization hits home that "Gee, these targets are actually shooting back at me....and even worse, they aren't standing still."

Maybe 50 Cent and ...umm...gentlemen (I use that term loosely) he's associated with would have a better chance than some of us.

Its probably different for experienced individuals who may be going into their SECOND firefight and have already smelled blood and cordite for real...but for the 99% of us law abiding citizens (or even LEO's that haven't had such an encounter before) I wouldn't place any bets on how we'd react...myself included.

[mini14jac]

From what I've read, more shots were fired in Vietnam, because of the studies done after WWII.
Vietnam-era training used the pop-up targets, which is said to have increased the odds that a soldier will shoot when actually in combat.
But.... back to the topic......

I've saw the video years ago, on one of those Real Video shows, or whatever they're called on Discovery, or A&E.

The next time I went to the range, I tried rapidly pulling my gun, and emptying it from the hip.
Guess what?
I didn't do any better than the cop in the video. :rolleyes: :confused: :(

If I'm not mistaken, the majority of LEO only shoot the minimum number of rounds required each year to qualify.

I know that, for myself, as I've started going to the range more often, my accuracy has improved dramatically.
I think, under stress, you do what you've trained to do.
If you haven't trained much, you don't have anything to fall back on.

As for me, I don't think you could pay me enough to be a cop.
Even though the free ammo is tempting. :cool: :p

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
----------------------------------------------
From what I've read, more shots were fired in Vietnam, because of the studies done after WWII.
Vietnam-era training used the pop-up targets, which is said to have increased the odds that a soldier will shoot when actually in combat.
-----------------------------------------------

Actually, the premise that troops will not shoot in combat was simply wrong, and based on phoney data.

Your experience in copying what the cops did on tape is a good example of what really happens in combat -- people react hastily, under great stress and shoot a LOT, but not accurately.

[RON in PA]

Vern: Is it possible that in Viet Nam all or most troops fired their weapons because they were issued full auto rifles as opposed to the manually operated or SA weapons of earier wars? Plus they were trained in suppression fire. Also in WW2 troops were trained on traditional rifle ranges and taught precision shooting at targets that they could see so that when they did go overseas they had to "unlearn" their training (learn to shoot in general direction of unseen enemy as opposed to holding fire until enemy was seen).

Don't know about veracity of Marshall, always thought he was a lousy writer and a wind-bag.

[aquapong]

What causes the huge police miss rate is the lack of practice by most officers. Not many of leos are into guns and practice any chance they get, but rather the type that sticks it in the holster and it only is drawn when the dept makes him qualify.

I have not been able to shoot much in the past 6 months and I've noticed a big drop in the quality of my handgun shooting. How do you think a leo that shoots 50 rounds once or twice a year is going to shoot when he's confronted with a threat to someone's life and his adrenaline is pumping?

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
----------------------------------------
Vern: Is it possible that in Viet Nam all or most troops fired their weapons because they were issued full auto rifles as opposed to the manually operated or SA weapons of earier wars?
-----------------------------------------

When I was an adviser with an ARVN regiment, they were issued the M1 Garand, and showed no reluctance to fire.

Full auto fire does, I think, have a strange effect on troops - mainly, it discourages them from aiming, and seems to convince them that the more noise they make, the more effective they are.

I'll always remember a video clip taken in Hue, of Marines at a wall around the old Imperial Palace -- they would hold their M16s over their heads, and rattle off a full magazine.

I kept hoping for a Gunny to come down the line kicking their butts for that -- but no such luck. My second tour, my brigade was opcon to the 3rd MarDiv, and I used to use that to needle the Marines.:D

[Hardtarget]

I've never been in a shoot-out. Hope it never comes to it. I'll be happy to die having never shoot at anything more dangerous than a piece of paper.
I think I'm with most here in also hoping to survive if ever it comes ...so I practice...probably not enough.
Mark.

[Hardtarget]

I've never been in a shoot-out. Hope it never comes to it. I'll be happy to die having never shoot at anything more dangerous than a piece of paper.
I think I'm with most here in also hoping to survive if ever it comes ...so I practice...probably not enough.
Mark.

oops..sorry about the double post...:uhoh:

[cxm]

Ok... and what was it supposed to remind those who HAVE had the misfortune to have had to use a weapon in self defense?

I beleive you will find those who have used weapons "in anger" very much understand the essential need for accuracy, accuracy accuracy.

Not original, but "you can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight" (Clint Smith maybe?) but VERY true.

Police should be held to very high standards of marksmanship... and if they can't meet those standards they should consider other lines of work that don't require such skills.

Chuck

OK, let me spell it out. That comment was intended to remind all who post that unless you were in that situation, you have no idea how you would react or what the outcome would be. Every time I read a critique of a shooting from some keyboard quarter back who has never been between the proverbial "rock and a hard spot"...oh never mind.

[cxm]

Uh Shootist.....

Lets see...75% misses out of 30 shots... or 25% hits......

So they got 7.5 hits?

V/r

Chuck

[Chuck Jennings]

The way I heard it, 9 guys, standing 10 FEET (not yards) away from each other discharged 30 shots in 30 secs.....and 75% of them were misses.

Very similar to the previously quoted FBI data, and they had to deal with big clouds from Black Powder!

[seeker_two]

When I read stories like these, I hold the administrators responsible for the lack of training & practice they provide their officers. Instead, they spend all the training money on the latest less-than-lethal gizmos,public relations ploys to satisfy politicians representing their "constituency" (many of which are in jail or prison), and the outrageous salaries and perks for the chiefs, assistant chiefs, and their cronies.

The line officers do the best that they can in that situation. The real problems lie up top...:fire:

[Werewolf]

Comparing a police shootout with firefights conducted by soldiers in combat is an apples and oranges type thing.

For LEO's combat is a rarity - for most LEO' it never happens in their entire carrer.

For soldiers serving in an actual combat zone firefights can be an every day thing. Your first firefight is an unnerving highly stressful experience softened by the presence of many friendly troops nearby. By your 10th firefight you're still just as afraid but you've learned to cope with the fear and concentration on the job at hand becomes second nature. One's ability to be effective increases with experience and exposure to danger (up to a point - I've read that 200 days of combat seems to be the max the average soldier can sustain before what used to be called combat fatigue begins to take it's toll).

LEO's never get the opportunity for combat to become 2nd nature which is why IMO there is a very high rate of misses by LEO's.

If there was a way to train LEO's in a way that truly simulated the high stress levels of combat I believe that their hit rate would improve.

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
-----------------------------------------
For soldiers serving in an actual combat zone firefights can be an every day thing. Your first firefight is an unnerving highly stressful experience softened by the presence of many friendly troops nearby.
------------------------------------------

Behavior in combat is a complex thing. My specialty is collective training (training units to function as units) and there is a distinct difference in combat between well-trained UNITS and poorly-trained UNITS (even if each individual solider may be well-trained as an INDIVIDUAL.)

For one thing, units disintegrate at first contact -- it is the re-building of the unit, re-establishing contact between men, and re-forming the chain of command, and using all available assets that distinguishes the well-trained unit from the poorly-trained unit.

That said, there are simulations that allow both police and military units to train under stresses and conditions very similar to combat. (Remember, ALL training is simulation -- from a shooting range to a force-on-force exercise.)

[Werewolf]

Vern,
I think I did a poor job of making my point vis a vie combat effectiveness (in this case meaning hit rate per shot fired) of the individual. Some folks tried to compare the efficiency of the individual combat soldier to the efficiency of an individual LEO. I don't believe that is a fair comparison (and I'm talking individual effectiveness not unit - do LEO's even fight as units in most actions where a shot is actually fired?).

The individual combat soldier does not become terribly effective until after a number of fights no matter how well he is trained. One's first combat experience is unnerving (and that is an understatement IMO). Some handle it better than others but the first fire fight one finds one's self in is a knock down drag out bitch at best. When the bullets start flying the stress is immense. In the civil war it was called seeing the elephant. Today the experience is often referred to as the blooding of the troops. One learns to deal with the stress of combat and that usually ends with an effective combat soldier.

I do not denigrate nor do I believe that the training you provide is unnecessary but training is still training. No one is supposed to die and those undergoing training know that. Training under the most stressful situations possible is critical to preparing LEO's and soldiers for combat. But no matter how real the simulation, no matter how much stress is applied it will never equal that of being thrown into a situation where one knows that there is a very, very real possibility of being killed. It is the possiblilty of being killed that creates tunnel vision, that shuts down all body systems not necessary to assure survival and IMO causes the high miss rate for first timers.

Learning to deal with the stresses of combat only comes with being in combat. LEO's usually never have to learn to deal with the stresses of being thrown into a life threatening situation (read being shot at). Not learning that is in my opinion what results in the high miss rate of LEO's when they are thrown into a real life and death situation (read being shot at). For that reason I think a high miss rate is just a fact of life for LEO's and all the guys carrying CCW out there that have never been shot at. That doesn't make them less skilled, less brave or any other less someone might imagine - it just makes 'em human. A high miss rate is to be expected.

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
------------------------------------
Learning to deal with the stresses of combat only comes with being in combat. LEO's usually never have to learn to deal with the stresses of being thrown into a life threatening situation (read being shot at).
------------------------------------

I'm not so sure -- there are plenty of instances of well-trained units performing superbly the first time in combat, and veteran units failing.

It IS possible to negatively train people and units -- that is, train then in techniques that lead to failure, and this can come about even through combat experiences. I found it very hard to get combat veterans to use aimed fire, for example, when I took over a company -- even after exercises that showed how well systematic aimed fire worked.

Even a firefight or two wasn't enough to convince some people.

On the other hand, there is no doubt that tactically-sound training can dramatically increase combat effectiveness.

Having said that, let me point out that the US Army has some of the most sophisticated training ever seen -- the elaborate systems at the National Traninng Center (Fort Irwin, CA) and other places have to be seen to be believed.

On the other hand, I have seen and participated in police training exercises that actually trained the troops to BE stressed, rather that DEAL WITH stress -- so that graduates had a tendency to be VERY high strung when they thought something was about to pop.

[clange]

As an aside, how many of us train to hit a moving, running, dodging target with a pistol?
Only thing i've done like that is shooting empty 20oz soda bottles. Things fly all over the place. Trying to shoot right when they land is pretty good. May not be much but its gotta be better than shooting at a black cirlce that never moves.

[munk]

I used to shoot jackrabbits, but they were always unarmed.




munk