Shipping ammo


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Catpop
March 12, 2013, 03:56 PM
Is it legal for a private citizen to ship loaded ammunition to another citizen via usps, ups, or fedx?

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Jurist
March 12, 2013, 04:49 PM
I tried to ship ammo last summer to Iowa from N.J.Went to FedEx,what a runaround,they wanted me to fill out federal hazardous material paperwork.I told them they were nuts,went two blocks away to UPS.The ups agent accepted the pkg,asked what it was? slapped on the proper label and shipped no problem.I love that guy in brown.

Prophet
March 12, 2013, 04:57 PM
I'm researching this now, getting ready to ship a package of ammunition for the first time. UPS seems to be the way to go, FedEx wants you to class the parcel as HAZMAT. If you take it to a UPS Customer Center and declare it small arms ammunition they should slap an ORM-D label on it and ship it no problem. That's what I'm going to try to do tomorrow, will report back with my results.

I've always been a UPS fan. All of my dealings with them have been professional and efficient. Not so much with USPS and FedEx.

You're not supposed to ship ammo USPS. Personally if I could I probably wouldn't anyway. If your package gets lost their excuse is that you didn't pay them enough.

Sav .250
March 12, 2013, 04:57 PM
I`d just call What ever shipper you might use and ask them.............

NavyLCDR
March 12, 2013, 04:59 PM
I`d just call What ever shipper you might use and ask them.............

and get the personal opinion of the person on the other end of the phone which might reflect what is in the shipper's published terms of service/tarrif, or might be 100% nonsense.

Prophet
March 12, 2013, 05:26 PM
I just called UPS's HAZMAT department and talked to Kevin, who was courteous and professional. He told me not to take the ammunition to a UPS Store but to take it to a Customer Center, the package marked with ORM-D and a square drawn around it with "Small Arms Ammunition" written directly above the square. In my case I am more than a month shy of age 21. I asked him about this and he gave me the affirmative since it was rifle ammunition and legal to possess at 18.

Spdracr39
March 12, 2013, 05:29 PM
I have had the same experience with Fedex on other items. UPS is much less restrictive on potential hazardous material.

mdemetz
March 12, 2013, 07:16 PM
No on USPS though.

psyopspec
March 12, 2013, 07:26 PM
I asked him about this and he gave me the affirmative since it was rifle ammunition and legal to possess at 18.

PA law notwithstanding, there is no federal statute barring you from possessing any sort of ammunition a 21 year old could. It is unlawful for a store to sell you handgun ammunition. Which is the very reason why that 9mm you are buying is for a carbine and that .22 is for your 10-22 and not your Mark III. ;)

NavyLCDR
March 12, 2013, 10:55 PM
PA law notwithstanding, there is no federal statute barring you from possessing any sort of ammunition a 21 year old could. It is unlawful for a store to sell you handgun ammunition. Which is the very reason why that 9mm you are buying is for a carbine and that .22 is for your 10-22 and not your Mark III. ;)

And to lie to an FFL regarding the intended use of the ammunition to circumvent the age requirement is a Federal felony.

sleepyone
March 12, 2013, 11:12 PM
Funny you should ask. I'm shipping five boxes of Winchester White Box .$) S&W (500) rounds tomorrow and went to our local UPS office today to get a shipping price. I had the box opened and ask the employee if I needed to fill out any special forms or pay a fee for shipping ammo and he said "No, we just charge by weight and dimensions. BTW, this is a customer service center where they also receive and deliver the packages; NOT a retail UPS store front.

psyopspec
March 12, 2013, 11:42 PM
And to lie to an FFL regarding the intended use of the ammunition to circumvent the age requirement is a Federal felony.

There's a few issues that pop out at me here. First of all, a person or business doesn't need an FFL to sell ammunition. Second, get around what age requirement? There isn't one to possess ammunition. Third, while lying on a 4473 is prosecutable as a felony, a purchaser doesn't fill one out to buy ammo. Fourth, even if they did, there is not a question on the form about whether any ammunition purchased will be for a handgun or long gun.

It's only illegal for a business to knowingly sell legally undefined "handgun ammunition" to someone under 21. It's not a crime the purchaser could possibly commit, as that illegality can only be committed by the seller. If the purchaser makes statements in good faith to reasonable satisfaction, then no crime is committed.

Let's do a hypothetical rundown on how this "crime" could go down. Guy aged 18-20 buys ammo and was followed home by BATFE who found he did not, in fact, own that Ruger 10-22 but did own a Mark III, they would still have no case. After all, maybe he intends to shoot it in a friend's 10-22, or in one that he himself hopes to purchase next week or in the next few years.

These were the facts as I understood them from doing a lot of looking into it when I was in the 18-21 crowd. I'll admit I could be wrong, so having said that do you have a source you could point me to?

Prophet
March 13, 2013, 12:49 AM
psyopsec; what I wrote is what the HAZMAT guy said, but reading back it could be taken as my having said it. Sorry about the confusion. I've always understood that limitations on pistol ammunition sales applied to FFL and licensed dealers only. It is legal to possess a handgun in the state of PA between the ages of 18-21 if the firearm has been gifted to you by certain relatives. OC is also legal at 18. A sportsman's firearms permit may be purchased from the county treasurer at age 18, allowing you to transport a firearm unloaded in a vehicle to and from the activities listed on the permit and to carry it while engaged in those activities in conjunction with applicable sporting licensure (I have one). Ammunition may also be purchased by those in the age gap if the ammunition is not acquired from an FFL but is acquired privately.

Two of the handguns that were gifted to me between the ages of 18-21 were chambered in .410 and .22; cartridges that fit my already-owned SxS shotgun and pump rifle. I already had ammunition for both.

edit; what I'm trying to illustrate here is that the HAZMAT guy was under the all too common misconception that because a licensed dealer cannot transfer pistols/pistol ammo to those in the age gap, no one else can either; just as many FFL's believe that they cannot transfer a pistol legally possessed by someone in the age gap to someone 21 or older (tried to explain this to an FFL once and nearly got laughed out of the store).

hso
March 13, 2013, 01:36 AM
You can't send ammunition by US Postal Service.

Ammunition labeled ORM-D as described can still be shipped, but FedEx Express requires a "Dangerous Goods" classification (BTW, ORM-D is a special HazMat shipping classification so you're still shipping as HazMat or Dangerous Goods). G. FedEx Express will transport ammunition when packed and labeled in compliance
with local, state and federal law, and the Dangerous Goods section of this Service
Guide. Ammunition is an explosive and must be shipped separately as dangerous goods.
You agree not to ship loaded firearms or firearms with ammunition in the same package.

Prophet
March 13, 2013, 09:18 PM
I had an excellent experience with the local UPS Customer Center. The lady who helped me was friendly and knowledgeable, and didn't freak out when I put a couple hundred rounds of 7.62x39 ammunition on the scale. She commented that in her 18 years of working with UPS, she's never seen so much ammunition being shipped as she has in the past few months. I had the ammo taped up in a weak box I intended to have UPS box over for me, but they didn't have one that mine would slide easily into. The attendant helped me put the ammo in the UPS box and gave me a tip on saving boxes for shipping ammo in the future; there's a seal on the bottom of shipping boxes that usually has the burst test rating of the box. If the rating is 600 or over it should be suitable for shipping heavy items such as ammo. Maybe I'm not particularly observant, but I'd never noticed that before. I also asked the attendant if there was a price increase for shipping ORM-D and she said no, that the only difference between ORM-D and other parcels is the way the parcel is classed. That's it. I was in and out in 8 minutes tops.

So, to summarize;

1; If you want to ship ammo UPS, take the ammo to a Customer Center. UPS Stores can't handle ammunition.

2; The ammo should be shipped in a sturdy box. A 600 burst rated box is recommended as it is most likely to be accepted by the attendant, who might inspect the box for integrity. UPS will provide appropriate boxes at an additional charge (my box was less than two dollars).

3; Label the box containing the ammunition with "ORM-D" surrounded by a black square. Then write "Small Arms Cart." somewhere near the designation. This can be done with a Sharpie marker.

4; Done. Pay and leave.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll258/rushthebunker/P1100117-1.jpg

NavyLCDR
March 13, 2013, 10:17 PM
There's a few issues that pop out at me here. First of all, a person or business doesn't need an FFL to sell ammunition. No, but some FFLs do sell ammo. Second, get around what age requirement? There isn't one to possess ammunition. Yes, there is, read 18 USC 922 (x). Third, while lying on a 4473 is prosecutable as a felony, a purchaser doesn't fill one out to buy ammo. Correct. However the same law also prohibits false ORAL statements. Fourth, even if they did, there is not a question on the form about whether any ammunition purchased will be for a handgun or long gun. No....however, the age limit changes depending on if the ammo purchased from a dealer is intended to be used in a handgun vice a rifle, and some FFLs, especially big stores like WalMart, Dick's Sporting goods will ask, usually because their cash register automatically flags them to enter the appropriate information.
It's only illegal for a business to knowingly sell legally undefined "handgun ammunition" to someone under 21. Correct, that law is 18 USC 922 (b)(3). It's not a crime the purchaser could possibly commit, as that illegality can only be committed by the seller. Wrong. Different law. Read 18 USC 922 (a)(6). If the purchaser makes statements in good faith to reasonable satisfaction, then no crime is committed. Nobody is talking about statements made in good faith. I said it was illegal for the purchaser to lie. Lying is not a statement made in good faith.

Let's do a hypothetical rundown on how this "crime" could go down. Guy aged 18-20 buys ammo and was followed home by BATFE who found he did not, in fact, own that Ruger 10-22 but did own a Mark III, they would still have no case. They most certainly would, if the <21 year old claimed the ammo was to be used in a rifle. After all, maybe he intends to shoot it in a friend's 10-22, or in one that he himself hopes to purchase next week or in the next few years. Sure. Until the same BATFE agent observes the 18 year old loading his Mark III with the ammo he bought and shoots it. Oh, I know, "I intended to buy a 10/22 to use this ammo in, but I changed my mind." Right?

These were the facts as I understood them from doing a lot of looking into it when I was in the 18-21 crowd. I'll admit I could be wrong, so having said that do you have a source you could point me to? You have to ask? :D

18 USC 922 (a)(6):
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

18 USC 922 - Unlawful acts
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(6) for any person in connection with the acquisition or attempted acquisition of any firearm or ammunition from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, knowingly to make any false or fictitious oral or written statement or to furnish or exhibit any false, fictitious, or misrepresented identification, intended or likely to deceive such importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector with respect to any fact material to the lawfulness of the sale or other disposition of such firearm or ammunition under the provisions of this chapter;

So, 18 year old Johnny goes to Walmart to the sporting goods counter which also sells the rifles and shotguns. 1. Licensed dealer. Johnny says, "I want two boxes of .22 ammo, please." Clerk scans the ammo and asks Johnny, "Is this for a rifle or a handgun?" Johnny says, "It's for a rifle." 2. Johnny just made an oral statement to the licensed dealer.

Clerk asks Johnny for ID which shows that Johnny is 18 years old. Clerk puts the birth date into the cash register and sales goes through... 18 year old age limit for ammunition intending to be used in a rifle purchased from a dealer, which is 18 USC 922 (b)(1).

Johnny does not even own a rifle but is going to use the ammo in a .22 pistol. 3. False oral statement made to the licensed dealer regarding the intended use of the ammo in order to circumvent the 21 year old age limit applicable to ammunition intended to be used in a handgun purchased from a licensed dealer which is also 18 USC 922 (b)(1).

Johnny thus violates 18 USC 922 (a)(6), committing a felony. Any other questions/comments?

Prophet
March 13, 2013, 11:52 PM
Any other questions/comments?

Yup. Concerning only your second point up there.

(x)(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or
otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has
reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile -
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
(2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to
knowingly possess -
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.

Laws pertaining only to transfer via licensed dealers aside, juvenile is defined as anyone under the age of 18, not under the age of 21 correct? If that is the case, then there is not a federal law against possession of handgun ammunition by someone who is 18 years of age or older; only for those under the age of 18 (which I'm assuming is what you meant, but I'm just making sure). Of course there are limitations as to how he may legally acquire that ammunition. But as long as he is not purchasing it from a licensed dealer and is not in violation of 18 USC 922 (a)(6), he should be in the clear.

If this were not the case, I would pose that it is rather impractical for my state to issue SPFs for the purpose of carrying any legal firearm to those between the ages of 18-21.

An individual who is age 18 or older and is licensed to hunt, trap or fish, or who has been issued a permit relating to hunting dogs, may apply for a Sportsman's Firearm Permit by submitting a completed application along with the required fee to the county treasurer's office. The permit shall be issued immediately and be valid throughout this Commonwealth for a period of five years from the date of issue for any "legal firearm", when carried in conjunction with a valid hunting, furtaking or fishing license, or permit relating to hunting dogs.

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=512&objID=4451&&PageID=462424&mode=2

NavyLCDR
March 13, 2013, 11:57 PM
Laws pertaining only to transfer via licensed dealers aside, juvenile is defined as anyone under the age of 18, not under the age of 21 correct? If that is the case, then no, there is not a federal law against possession of handgun ammunition by someone who is 18 years of age or older.

However, the erroneous statement posted by psyopspec was this, "Second, get around what age requirement? There isn't one to possess ammunition."

Clearly, there is a Federal age limit to possess handgun ammunition, is there not?

Prophet
March 14, 2013, 12:26 AM
However, the erroneous statement posted by psyopspec was this, "Second, get around what age requirement? There isn't one to possess ammunition."

Clearly, there is a Federal age limit to possess handgun ammunition, is there not?

Correct. I revised my post to reflect agreement with you on that, but apparently you quoted and replied before seeing the revision. We're on the same page there!

psyopspec
March 14, 2013, 11:24 AM
Clearly, there is a Federal age limit to possess handgun ammunition, is there not?

Not for the 18-21 crowd. Illegal for the FFL to sell them undefined "handgun ammunition," but not illegal for them to possess. A straw purchase would also be perfectly legal here; a parent or guardian could buy it for them and hand it off without having committed any crime. And again, "handgun ammunition" is legally vague. As you said in your first reply to my post, the age limit changes depending on if the ammo purchased from a dealer is intended to be used in a handgun vice a rifle.

You are correct about 18 USC 922 (a)(6) making it illegal to provide false statements to a dealer. Keep in mind I never suggested lying; rather, I suggested furnishing sufficient intent to that dealer to satisfy their lawful requirements. Interpret my post how you will, but I maintain that no one should lie. And to follow through on the hypothetical, even if BATFE later caught Johnny loading that ammunition into a pistol, yes he is allowed to change his mind. After the transaction it's his ammunition to dispose of has he wishes, and he retains the right to alter his intent or use as he wishes.

I would also like to note here that a dealer is not required to ask what the ammunition is for. In that case it becomes a "don't ask don't tell" situation unless of course the dealer "has reason to believe" that the buyer is underage.

I appreciate your detailed reply to my post. It's easy to see that you have a greater working knowledge of the specific laws that come into play here. Still, what worked for me worked for me, and even looking back side by side with the law citations you made, there's no way to point out the moment where I'd committed any crime. Most importantly, I am not a lawyer (but I have this sneaking suspicion you just might be...), and anyone in the 18-21 demographic should have the information they need to make an informed choice. Kudos for bringing that to the thread.

NavyLCDR
March 14, 2013, 12:19 PM
and anyone in the 18-21 demographic should have the information they need to make an informed choice. Kudos for bringing that to the thread.

and that's the major goal. Many times other people will post, "just tell them it is for a rifle." Well... that just might be a crime. Granted, one that has next to zero chances of being able to be prosecuted for, but this is The High Road.

And....as you pointed out, it's not even illegal for an 18 year old to purchase "handgun" ammunition from an FFL, it's only illegal for the 18 year old to make a false statement regarding the purchase, and only illegal on the FFL's side to sell it to them with reasonable cause to believe they do not meet the age requirement.

98C5
March 14, 2013, 12:53 PM
I ship ammo all the time. I just print an ORM-D label, tape it to the box. I ship from my company and have no issues. I also require an Adult Signature. Never been any issues.

btg3
March 14, 2013, 01:55 PM
Some UPS stores are certified to handle ORM-D and will ship. To avoid frustration, ask before you go.

medalguy
March 14, 2013, 06:03 PM
Fedex Ground also handles ammo. I shipped 1,000 rounds today, and the carrier just left the house with the ammo.

Ammo can't be shipped by Fedex Express which uses air service, must be Fedex Ground service or Fedex Home Delivery and carried by ground service only.

Mac2
March 15, 2013, 12:45 AM
My Son lives in Washington state. He recently bought an XD in .45 GAP due to a very good price. Trying to find any ammo right now is hard, but .45 Gap??? I ordered 500 pieces of brass and loaded them for him. USPS said no way, but directed me to UPS. No problems at UPS. The guy did ask what was in the package as they have to know. I questioned that but reluctantly told him (I didn't want the stuff ripped off in this current environment). $37 and 5 days later my Son had 500 rounds. No problems at all.

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