Birdshot Damage, Close Range (Photos at link)


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Fred Fuller
March 12, 2013, 05:34 PM
I tell people pretty often ... you don't want to have an ND with any firearm, but you especially don't want to have one with a shotgun. Here's why.

NO, I am not going to post the pictures here with no warning - just the link. No one else needs to do that either. Anyone clicking through to the pictures, be warned - they are graphic.

Review the Four Rules for yourselves.

Read the following description/discussion first:

Thats my left shoulder. Story is: my son in law and I were at the range, and he HAD to have me shoot his AK47. Now, I believe they should be allowed under the 2A, but i like my .22, .410, and LOVE my .12 GA due to its versatility of rounds. SO. While I shot his AK47 (which WAS pretty cool) he went through some shells on my shotgun, going from slugs to birdshot, to see what each round could do. The wives called and told us boys it was time to come home, and I pulled the clip and emptied the chamber, and loaded his AK in the trunk, noticing my shotgun was already stored. When I got home late that evening, I grabbed the shotgun to take it out, and the trigger caught on the jack handle. Result: BIG BOOM. and a birdshot round litterally REMOVED my shoulder socket, shattered the bone halfway down to the elbow, and left the inside of my shoulder blade looking like baby swiss....

Lessons known:
1. treat every gun as loaded
2. an unloaded gun is a worthless gun
3. always transport your weapon empty unless you even THINK you may need it

Lessons learned:
1. my son in law is an idiot
2. even an ex-marine doesn't necessarily know what he's doing (which I should have realized 2 years ago when he shot his left finger off with a .45 pistol
3. put the () gun in a CASE or lock the trigger and
4. just because someone is NOW a cop, don't mean (). (actually I DID know that, this just confirmed it!)

Then click on http://ogdaa.blogspot.com/2013/03/12-gauge-birdshot-damage.html if you want to see the photos. Read the comments, too...

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Cosmoline
March 12, 2013, 05:42 PM
That actually tends to underscore birdshot's ineffectiveness as a defensive round. For a point blank injury, it could have been much worse. Yes the tissue and bone were badly mauled but you don't see the kind of through-and-through destruction of buckshot at near-contact range. Note also how much shot was just absorbed into the tissue even at that range, doing no substantive damage at all. Now it's just sitting there. Imagine shooting a fat man in the gut with that load. How much would have gotten beyond the fat layers and done any meaningful damage?

Takem406
March 12, 2013, 06:30 PM
Wow should post that on XD Talk! They hash the bird shot thing about once a month!

If you have a tight pattern at close range with 4 shot plated lead inside of 15 yards... Game over jack!

In God and Glock we Trust

ZeSpectre
March 12, 2013, 06:50 PM
The first rule of safe gun handling has a pretty harsh correction curve. Violate the First AND the Third rule at your peril.

"Steve" (the guy in the article) can be as pissed as he wants at his son-in-law but the truth is he did it to himself with negligent firearms handling.

"Steve's" story and images just became part of my firearms safety course. I always have a "wake them up/gross them out" segment at the tale end of my class because I want to hammer home that ANY carelessness with a firearm can have instant and catastrophic results.

coyote315
March 12, 2013, 06:55 PM
i have seen similar birdshot wounds at that range firsthand, and the 160lb man never made it back to his feet.
Birdshot is unquestionably effective in a room or hallway for defense, with no danger of overpenetration. Surface wounding a problem? That's why even Crazy Uncle Joe says to get a double-barrel. The face is a helluva surface to wound after the first shot puts them down.

psyopspec
March 12, 2013, 07:14 PM
The first rule of safe gun handling has a pretty harsh correction curve. Violate the First AND the Third rule at your peril.

In addition to failing to treat the firearm loaded and keeping the trigger clear of objects (not a finger in this case), he was also failing to maintain muzzle awareness and to know his target/beyond. This looks like a violation of all 4. If he'd have just broken rules 1 & 3 he may still have ND'd, but not into himself. And that's the beauty of redundancy. In order to hurt someone unintentionally with a gun have to break all 4.

mnhntr
March 12, 2013, 09:38 PM
Sorry to hear this happened but I would be kicking my SILs rear end

jmr40
March 12, 2013, 09:43 PM
Birdshot is unquestionably effective in a room or hallway for defense,

That actually tends to underscore birdshot's ineffectiveness as a defensive round. For a point blank injury, it could have been much worse.

I'm voting with comment #2. A point blank injury to an unprotected part of the body and no exit wound even through a relatively narrow part of the body.

Back off to 15' and ask birdshot to penetrate thicker winter clothing and chances are good you won't reach vital organs with many, if any pellets.

This looks like a typical birdshot wound. Nasty looking, lots of damage, but very shallow. Just because something worked once does not make it a good idea. I'd use birdshot if out of other options, but would never use or recommend it as a 1st choice. There is just no downside to using buckshot if available.

Ehtereon11B
March 13, 2013, 03:06 AM
Just goes to show you that birdshot is a reliable self defense alternative. To other naysayers I direct to Jeff Quinn who shoots a pork shoulder covered in 4 layers of denim from 21 or 25 feet to penetrate 4 or 5 inches into the shoulder. While 4 or 5 inches is nothing compared to the penetration of buckshot, 4 or 5 inch gaping whole in your chest or in OP case shoulder, is nothing to scoff at.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq3RVvL9ZjU

Marlin 45 carbine
March 13, 2013, 11:46 AM
Holy Macaroni - close call. hope healing up goes well.

1KPerDay
March 13, 2013, 12:55 PM
Birdshot is unquestionably effective
If you say so.

Gordon
March 13, 2013, 08:18 PM
Wait Lee is that you who got hit? IF it is you remember what Yoda Louis told us about complacency and how he (Louis) was potentially the most dangerous man on the range! I learned to "switch on" EVERY time I touch a gun and hope I LIVE that out until I die. FWIW I have been seeing people I know have "accidents" lately that were trained to not have them.

Fred Fuller
March 13, 2013, 11:30 PM
No, it was not me. Sorry to be misleading in that regard - the blog is not mine, and the pics are not me.

Gordon
March 14, 2013, 12:04 AM
Whew!:)

Eb1
March 14, 2013, 12:18 AM
I think I'll stick with #3 buckshot from my wife's Mossy 500 20 gauge.

Inebriated
March 14, 2013, 12:19 AM
It's unfortunate that people need to be reminded that 1, birdshot is dangerous, and 2, the four rules are there to keep you alive.

nathan
March 14, 2013, 12:43 AM
I bought a box of steel shot BBs. Thanks for the video. The birdshots are very effective in close range. No doubt about it. The myth that is spread s so quickly and not as effective manstopper is a not true. In closed range , it will put a man down and kill em.

RTR_RTR
March 14, 2013, 01:07 AM
Just goes to show you that birdshot is a reliable self defense alternative. To other naysayers I direct to Jeff Quinn who shoots a pork shoulder covered in 4 layers of denim from 21 or 25 feet to penetrate 4 or 5 inches into the shoulder. While 4 or 5 inches is nothing compared to the penetration of buckshot, 4 or 5 inch gaping whole in your chest or in OP case shoulder, is nothing to scoff at.

http://drpinna.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/1070397_f520.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-M3KH_67ExbI/UT597MikNXI/AAAAAAAAcNk/ZskcLsjCpAM/s1600/night+sky.jpg

I'd rather a round that can reliably make it through a jacket, through a stereotypical american's central obesity, and still have some energy left to crack a vertebra. Fleshwounds don't stop but by pain tolerance (at least not quickly), and I would rather not cross abdomen off as viable target area. To each his own

Edit: I am assuming the X-ray isn't bothersome to anyone. If requested, I'll take it down. Feel free to PM

Jim Watson
March 14, 2013, 01:49 AM
I am too squeamish to go to the pictures.
Note that it took two violations of safety principles by two careless people operating in ignorance of each other's actions.
#1 stowed a loaded gun
#2 picked up a gun by the muzzle.

That killed Dave Higginbotham, owner of Lone Star Rifles.

Ehtereon11B
March 14, 2013, 04:47 AM
I'd rather a round that can reliably make it through a jacket, through a stereotypical american's central obesity, and still have some energy left to crack a vertebra. Fleshwounds don't stop but by pain tolerance (at least not quickly), and I would rather not cross abdomen off as viable target area. To each his own

I get what you are trying to say. Not everyone is going to be injured by 4 inch penetration of birdshot. But keep in mind a few things
1) That was 4 inches through pork shoulder bone and Grissel muscle. Fat and human flesh is much softer and not as dense as a pork shoulder off a 250 hog. Jeff mentions that later in the video. I would love to see him do the same test with a cadaver but dead people willing to get shot are in short supply.
2) Even a .22LR can score a kill hit if hit placement is prime. Granted a .22LR has more velocity to bleed off in a chest cavity compared to 12ga pellets. But a few hundred pellets beats a HV .22LR

I am not saying 12ga birdshot is ideal. But in an apartment where collateral damage is a high concern, buckshot is not as good as birdshot. Buckshot will punch through thin interior walls and be more than lethal velocity to anyone in the next room. Birdshot would still be lethal in the next room but not as readily as buckshot.

Mobuck
March 14, 2013, 08:21 AM
And the OP is claiming this didn't stop him immediately? At the very least, this much body damage would allow a second shot with a repeating shotgun.
FWIW, I've seen #4 shot completely penetrate the ribcage of a yearling deer from a range of 25-30'. Not all of the shot but some of the pellets exited and many more were under the skin on the far side. The deer folded in midstride and was DRT.

CajunBass
March 14, 2013, 09:03 AM
I have personally finished off many a deer with birdshot. In my experience at a range of a few feet a 12 ga "dove load" of No 8 shot will leave a smoking hole about 1" in diameter all the way through the skull. You could read a newspaper on the other side.

In Peter Capsticks "Death in a Lonely Land" he tells of killing a full sized Africcan lioness that charged him while bird hunting from a range of about four feet, with a single load of of No 8 shot from a 20 ga. There was no need for a second shot he said.

I have no doubt that a VERY close range, birdshot will do some serious damage. Start getting out past a few feet. Maybe not so much.

JohnBT
March 14, 2013, 10:37 AM
"I've seen #4 shot completely penetrate the ribcage of a yearling deer from a range of 25-30' "

Who was hunting deer with bird shot?

Trent
March 14, 2013, 10:55 AM
Ugh.

That was pretty brutal.

1KPerDay
March 14, 2013, 12:07 PM
I bought a box of steel shot BBs. Thanks for the video. The birdshots are very effective in close range. No doubt about it. The myth that is spread s so quickly and not as effective manstopper is a not true. In closed range , it will put a man down and kill em.
if you say so...

03Shadowbob
March 14, 2013, 05:49 PM
I've seen deer taken with birdshot, mistakenly loaded instead of buckshot on a dog hunt, so I am pretty confident it will work in a pinch if needed for defense.

robMaine
March 14, 2013, 07:06 PM
I am with others here and saying that "steve" was as much at fault if not more then his SIL, kind of imature to blame the other guy so harshly, when he aimed a gun at himself and somehow managed to discharge it..

wild cat mccane
March 14, 2013, 09:59 PM
Proof of what doctors say: If you own a gun, the odds ratio of you being shot is higher than if you don't.

Jim K
March 14, 2013, 10:12 PM
The two silliest myths about shotguns and bird shot are 1) a single shot will "fill a room with pellets", no need to aim or even know where an enemy is and 2) birdshot won't penetrate a wall, so there is no need to worry about hitting someone in another room.

Now we can add "Crazy Joe's" advice, that with a shotgun you don't need to ever shoot AT anyone, just fire into the air and the bad guy will run away. (If he doesn't, don't wish for an AR-15; "Crazy Joe" already sent the Army to take yours.)

Jim

Fred_G
March 14, 2013, 10:22 PM
I feel for the OP, hope they heal fast. Gun rules are in layers. You can't blame someone else who broke a rule for you breaking a rule.


Birdshot is great for SD, if you are being attacked by birds.

C0untZer0
March 14, 2013, 10:24 PM
From the blog comments:

Been in medicine 35 years.
Seen quite a few patients with birdshot in them. Seen almost none with buckshot....if they survived the buck they paid the price by losing an extremity.

FIVETWOSEVEN
March 14, 2013, 10:28 PM
If someone can walk to the ambulance after getting hit from 6 feet away square in the chest, I'll stick to what is proven to work.

#1 stowed a loaded gun

I store my AK loaded, the difference is that I KNOW its loaded.

PGT
March 14, 2013, 10:40 PM
is it bad that I clicked through not realizing there were graphic pics and didn't even flinch when I saw them?

JohnnyK
March 14, 2013, 10:48 PM
now that is a BAD DAY!!! OUCH.... imagine just a few inches over.... a head shot would have been fatal for sure... nothing to play around with..

huntsman
March 14, 2013, 11:32 PM
I don't know what this proves other than modern medicine is great.

nathan
March 14, 2013, 11:37 PM
Back in the late 1990s I remember an older guy at Walmart gun section in Abilene, Texas, told me that BB shotshells is okey for SD in closed range. I do believe now. At the time i dont even own a shotgun but only with my SKS.

psyopspec
March 15, 2013, 11:03 AM
I store my AK loaded, the difference is that I KNOW its loaded.


I store my guns in varying states of readiness depending on their purpose. When I handle any of them I do so as if they are loaded.

lobo9er
March 15, 2013, 11:32 AM
wow thanks for sharing with us. It is a good reminder. I am sorry that happened to you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq3RVvL9ZjU gunblast showed birdshot is pretty powerful at across the room distance. By shooting rack of ribs and a pork shoulder covered in denim. I'm not swapping buck shot but believe birdshot would stop an intruder.

psyopspec
March 15, 2013, 12:12 PM
wow thanks for sharing with us. It is a good reminder. I am sorry that happened to you

As Fred stated above, this didn't happen to him, nor is the blog in the OP his.

481
March 15, 2013, 12:57 PM
Much as the pictures made me feel a little woozy, they also caused me to regard the 4 Rules with a renewed sense of importance. Complacency sets in when a long time passes with nothing happening and this reminded that I cannot let such a lapse occur. Ever.

1KPerDay
March 15, 2013, 01:25 PM
wow thanks for sharing with us. It is a good reminder. I am sorry that happened to you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq3RVvL9ZjU gunblast showed birdshot is pretty powerful at across the room distance. By shooting rack of ribs and a pork shoulder covered in denim. I'm not swapping buck shot but believe birdshot would stop an intruder.
as long as he didn't have 4 inches of flab or muscle or tissue 'twixt his coat and his vitals.

birdshot is for birds.

I'm out

Fred Fuller
March 15, 2013, 02:16 PM
Make no mistake about it, birdshot can certainly kill and it can kill at further away than close range. I have seen the aftermath of it happening as an EMT back in the day when I was still running rescue. Even as scattered pellets birdshot can penetrate enough to be lethal. At close range it produces what surgeons call 'rathole wounds' - ragged and ugly, sometimes lethal, sometimes not.

My point in opening this thread was to remind members to be careful with their shotguns, not to start yet another debate over whether birdshot is useful for defense or not. So, to make the point again - remember the Four Rules and keep them always in mind when you have a firearm in hand. Momentary lapses of attention can be tragic. Among the worst things I have ever seen in a long life and a short career in EMS have been shotgun wounds. You DO NOT want those memories floating around inside your head if you can help it. Pictures are bad enough, which is why I set it up to require another click before they appeared.

nathan
March 15, 2013, 02:27 PM
Just a reminder, the 00 bck is the gold standard for home defense because the cops used it. The no 4 buck is also very well regarded. Anyway shotshell regardless of shot sizes are deadly at closed range.

Always observe proper firearm safety and live free.

lobo9er
March 15, 2013, 02:45 PM
If someone can walk to the ambulance after getting hit from 6 feet away square in the chest, I'll stick to what is proven to work.

Ignorance is bliss.

If someone was hit in the shoulder with a deer slug they could walk away. 140 lb deer run away after being shot with all sorts of heavy hitters. Its shot placement no matter what the gun or what its loaded with. If that bird shot hit him in the face, neck or heart this thread would have started a whole lot more grim.

Fred_G
March 15, 2013, 07:09 PM
My point in opening this thread was to remind members to be careful with their shotguns, not to start yet another debate over whether birdshot is useful for defense or not. So, to make the point again - remember the Four Rules and keep them always in mind when you have a firearm in hand. Momentary lapses of attention can be tragic.

This.

Treat them all as loaded, follow the rules, even add to them when you can. Extra layers add more safety. I generally have a loaded handgun near me. If it is not on me, it is in a holster that covers the trigger. Just one more layer of safety.

wrs840
March 15, 2013, 07:33 PM
Proof of what doctors say: If you own a gun, the odds ratio of you being shot is higher than if you don't.

Yeah. ...And if you own a boat, your chances of drowning go up.


I agree with those who decline to blame the SIL. The author mishandled a firearm, and more importantly, pointed it at himself. Just don't do that.

USAF_Vet
March 15, 2013, 07:56 PM
In the article it states the SIL started shooting slugs and worked down to the birdshot. The blogger is damned lucky the SIL didn't start with birdshot and work up to slugs, leaving one if them in the chamber.

mookiie
March 15, 2013, 08:09 PM
This is an incredible story. Thank you for sharing hopefully everyone will take a lesson from this post today so a mistake like this does not happen again!

Ehtereon11B
March 15, 2013, 08:30 PM
So, to make the point again - remember the Four Rules and keep them always in mind when you have a firearm in hand. Momentary lapses of attention can be tragic. Among the worst things I have ever seen in a long life and a short career in EMS have been shotgun wounds. You DO NOT want those memories floating around inside your head if you can help it. Pictures are bad enough, which is why I set it up to require another click before they appeared.

This. Practice and muscle memory. The only weapon I keep loaded in my RSC is the BB gun (for the annoying birds that sometimes show up). Knowing that, I still clear or check all weapons in there. Even the airsoft ones. I do the same with every weapon I handle at gun stores, training etc. 99% of the time I don't even realize I am doing it.

multigauge
March 16, 2013, 09:57 PM
I believe comment #21 may have been referring to #4 Buckshot. I also wonder why our last two vice presidents do not have a proper understanding of shotguns.

FIVETWOSEVEN
March 17, 2013, 02:17 AM
I store my guns in varying states of readiness depending on their purpose. When I handle any of them I do so as if they are loaded.

I do the same. I was just making the point that storing a gun loaded isn't a bad thing.

Ignorance is bliss.

If someone was hit in the shoulder with a deer slug they could walk away. 140 lb deer run away after being shot with all sorts of heavy hitters. Its shot placement no matter what the gun or what its loaded with. If that bird shot hit him in the face, neck or heart this thread would have started a whole lot more grim.

No shot is a sure shot but if shooting CoM, which is recommended across the board by professionals, doesn't work then you seriously need to reconsider what you are using for defense. Hitting vital organs or the CNS is what you want to do for the most effective way to stop someone. If those little pellets from birdshot can't make it past the rib cage then guess what? Use a proper defensive loadout.

Oh yeah, there are a couple of people that have survived being shot point blank range in the face with a shotgun loaded with birdshot. Look up face transplant patients. No matter how you look at it, birdshot just plain sucks for defense. Sure it can kill someone but so can pellet guns. Just because it can doesn't mean it's the best or even if it should.

rondog
March 17, 2013, 02:27 AM
Ok, didn't read all 3 pages or look at the photos. But wouldn't the victim have had to grab the shotgun by the barrel with the muzzle pointing at himself for this to happen? Shame on the SIL for leaving it loaded, but blame on the victim for shooting himself via poor gun handling.

FIVETWOSEVEN
March 17, 2013, 01:00 PM
That's the only way it could have happened the way I see it.

heeler
March 17, 2013, 11:42 PM
That was a really nasty wound that will undoubtedly give life long issues.
And...The never ending debate about about the effectivness of birdshot as a defense load will never end.
I would not choose it as my first thought but I am one who absolutely has seen it's lethal effect.
Not on a human but on two decent sized feral hogs that ran across a jeep road on a private ranch that were shot from approximately 20 feet away with an old Ithaca model 37 in 20 gauge loaded with 7 1/2 shot.
Both were shot quickly with one shot each in the head and both were dead as a damn hammer when they went down.
Again,I would not opt for bird shot to go up against someone but your kidding yourself if you dont think it's effective at close range.
I gained a lot of respect for birdshot that hot September morning.

allaroundhunter
March 18, 2013, 12:07 AM
i have seen similar birdshot wounds at that range firsthand, and the 160lb man never made it back to his feet.
Birdshot is unquestionably effective in a room or hallway for defense, with no danger of overpenetration.

No, birdshot is not unquestionably effective in a room or hallway for defense.... While you might have seen a 160 lb man never get up from a load of birdshot, I will share with you a story that I have told a couple of times here:

My grandfather was a surgeon, general practitioner, and coroner of a rural Kansas county during the '50s and '60s. One instance that he remembered and learned a lesson from is when a man attempted to kill himself. He loaded up a 12 ga with birdshot (#7 shot IIRC) and shot himself in the chest, point blank. Not only was the shot not instantly incapacitating, the man was able to get up from his chair, walk roughly 200 yards to his neighbor's and have them get him to my grandfather to receive medical attention (he had a change of heart and didn't want to die anymore apparently). During the 30 minutes between the shot being fired and the man arriving on my grandfather's table, he never lost consciousness and never lost his strength. After 3 hours of operating on him, my grandfather removed the majority of the pellets and stitched the man up. The man suffered from a large hole in his chest, his right lung was punctured by several pellets, his sternum was and several ribs were broken, but he had no immediately fatal wounds and he did not find any pellets that made it further than 6" into the patient's chest. (The patient actually later returned to my grandfather complaining that there were still some pellets in his chest that were causing him some pain :rolleyes:)

Nothing is absolute, and saying that birdshot is unquestionably effective at close range? Not quite sure I agree with that one...

303tom
March 18, 2013, 10:51 AM
I use #4`s in my HD shotgun................

Tony_the_tiger
March 18, 2013, 11:42 AM
1) The firearm is always loaded. (Assume it is always loaded).
2) Never point the firearm at anything you do not want to destroy.
3)Be aware of your target and what is behind it.
4) Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire.

I feel sorry for this guy and his shoulder. Negligent discharges happen fast and when least expected. Let us all continue to practice vigilance about firearms safety.

Do you think they will operate to remove all that shot?

ilmonster
March 18, 2013, 11:47 AM
What do we consider "birdshot"? Only 7 1/2 - 9 pellets, or anything but buckshot? I've thought of using #6 shot for defense to minimize overpenetration through drywall as I have close neighbors.

mcdonl
March 18, 2013, 11:52 AM
Good story. Obviously the gun safety message is important and that shotguns with any load should not be disregarded.

I also find it interesting that most anti-gun folks a) want to let us to "keep out shotguns" (until phase 2) and b) want to exclude the SIL from any bans because of his service record.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ehtereon11B
March 18, 2013, 12:51 PM
What do we consider "birdshot"? Only 7 1/2 - 9 pellets, or anything but buckshot? I've thought of using #6 shot for defense to minimize overpenetration through drywall as I have close neighbors.

Most places have a pretty clean line difference between birdshot and buckshot. Birdshot ranges from about 2mm diameter to just under 4.5mm in the common birdshot loads (#9 to BB) wheras buckshot goes from 6.1 to 9.1mm (#4 buck to 000 buck)

Fred Fuller
March 18, 2013, 09:56 PM
One instance that he remembered and learned a lesson from is when a man attempted to kill himself.

I posted links to a story from Australia here several times in the past - that story is no longer available online free, but some details can be seen at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_gunshot_suicide .

herkyguy
March 19, 2013, 09:35 AM
thank you for sharing. while graphic, sometimes it takes something like this to make you stop for a second and think about gun safety, which i believe was the OPs point.

on the birdshot question, to each his own. i think its a great multi-use option and would feel pretty comfortable with my 870 18.5" loaded with 6+1 of birdshot in a home break-in scenario.

DHart
April 1, 2013, 02:56 AM
Good take away from this thread... common sense and learning from others make for a smart approach in: 1) avoiding accidents, and 2) surviving deadly threats.

1) ALWAYS follow the 4 simple safety rules rigidly and this kind of thing is extremely unlikely to happen to you.

2) When loading your shotgun for defense purposes, using proven medicine... 00 Buckshot, preferably in 12 ga., is extremely likely to STOP the threat, if you do your part.

rugerman
April 1, 2013, 05:43 PM
I had a Dr. friend who was a gun nut and was on call at the local ER from time to time. He said that he hated bird shot wounds the most, "You have all these tiny bleeders to patch up and you work your ass off stopping the leaks and the the jack ass still dies on you". Back in the 70's I did a lot of quail hunting with a 870 20 ga. and I have killed several deer at close range with a 1oz. load of #8's to the axis joint (skull/neck junction).

HankB
April 1, 2013, 06:58 PM
There's no question in my mind that birdshot can be lethal.

There's also no question in my mind that there are better choices for self defense - if you have time to make a choice.

I suspect there's at least one lawyer - shot in the face by a former Vice President - who is very glad the latter was using birdshot rather than buck or slug . . .

lobo9er
April 2, 2013, 01:57 PM
there are a couple of people that have survived being shot point blank range in the face with a shotgun loaded with birdshot.

True but there are people who have survived being shot in the face with a 30-06. watched "the Whites" on Netflix one of them shot there uncle in the face with a 30-06 and he lived.

Buck shot is better option of course. But is the video from GunBlast fake?

Trent
April 2, 2013, 03:27 PM
One instance that he remembered and learned a lesson from is when a man attempted to kill himself.

I posted links to a story from Australia here several times in the past - that story is no longer available online free, but some details can be seen at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_gunshot_suicide .

"One particular case has been documented from Australia. In February 1995, a man committed suicide on parkland in Canberra, Australia. He took a pump action shotgun and shot himself in the chest. The load passed through the chest without hitting a rib, and went out the other side. He then walked fifteen meters, reloaded, leaned the shotgun against his throat, and shot his throat and part of his jaw. He then reloaded, walked 136 meters to a hill slope, lay down on the slope, held the gun against his chest with his hands and operated the trigger with his toes. This shot entered the thoracic cavity and demolished the heart, killing him."

Uhh..

Holy crap. That was one determined dude.

theblakester
April 2, 2013, 03:36 PM
To those claiming that bird shot is effective at HD distances, you're wrong. That picture shows the results at point blank distance, not across the room distance. Too many variable will reduce the effects of bird shot, like body size, amount of fat/muscle, impact angle, bone structure, placement of shot, distance, amount and type of clothing etc. Yes it will make hamburger out of the first couple inches of tissue, but beyond that, all of these variables lessen the chances that bird shot will reach the vitals and quickly stop an immediate threat.

lobo9er
April 2, 2013, 03:51 PM
theblakester did you watch the GUNBLAST video? In the video our bearded friend shoots meat and bone and clothes at across room distance.

theblakester
April 2, 2013, 04:56 PM
Yes I did. He claimed 4 inches of penetration beyond the bone, but his fingers didn't go half that deep into the tissue. bird shot might not penetrate deep enough on a large muscular man in heavy clothing. Plus, what if he's standing sideways and the bird shot hits his arm/shoulder first. It may not penetrate through the arm/shoulder and then through his ribs and into his vitals. What if your shot strikes bone at 10 yards, and at an angle? Most bad guys aren't going to stand directly in front of you hanging in an onion bag and let you take a perfect shot into the gut or diaphragm. Under stress your shots might not be perfectly placed. In an ideal situation bird shot can quickly stop someone, but I choose to plan for a less than ideal perfect situation. And buck shot has a much much better chance at hitting vitals when these variables present themselves.

theblakester
April 2, 2013, 05:00 PM
Don't get me wrong, it was a good video and it showed that bird shot at normal room distance does more damage than a lot of people think. I'd be interested to watch the same experiment with #2 bird shot and BB size shot.

lobo9er
April 2, 2013, 06:00 PM
BB shot would be interesting I agree. I gotta add though I would imagine if that meat was a threat, the threat would have been motivated to leave. If the threat was on enough meth not to feel it a .45 acp wouldn't be much better.

theblakester
April 2, 2013, 06:07 PM
Probably true, but i dont trust probably. And a 45 acp is more likely to penetrate straight through your jacket, through your arm/bone, through your. Jacket again, through your ribs, and into your vitals than #8 bird shot.

And if that pork meat was a threat, I'd just cook it a little longer to make sure all the bacteria and parasites were dead ;)

Gunnerboy
April 2, 2013, 07:05 PM
If ive watched geese shake off BB shot, than i am most definatly not gonna use that against a hoped up tweak. Ill take my chances with 7.62x54r and a fixed bayonet.

Eb1
April 2, 2013, 07:30 PM
HA! Clint had that M1 ready didn't he? Seemed to work good for him in "Grand Torino".

lobo9er
April 3, 2013, 03:17 PM
don't be so sure about your 45 acp either. theres a good video on youtube of a doctors lecture on bullet wounds. Basically most people shot by a pistol run away. He shows a X-ray of a person who was double tapped in the chest with a 40 S&W. The doc says something like "nice double tap right? This guy is doing quite well."

worth watching
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tku8YI68-JA

DHart
April 3, 2013, 03:34 PM
My choice is to defend with 12 ga. buckshot. BUT...

if all I had on hand for defense was bird shot, with a shotgun, I'd aim for the face of the threat.

There's a very strong likelihood that a square hit to the face, within 15'-20' or so, would put a sudden stop to the advance of a threat.

Take out the eyes and he's pretty much done-as a threat to you, not to mention the trauma one would feel from taking a load of birdshot directly to the face at close range. May not be fatal, but it would almost certainly STOP the threat IMMEDIATELY.

italy4nra
April 3, 2013, 04:50 PM
Car accidents at 40mph can be lethal. And yet Some have survived wrecks at 160mph.

Birdshot good.
Buckshot better.
Overpenetration one of many many considerations in any home environment.

The real lesson here is that basic safety is to be followed 100% of the time. I check and clear a gun even when I have held it for more than a few minutes. My buddies call me stupid. I shrug and just try and enjoy the feeling of clearing a deadly weapon. I really like following the 4 rules like a zealot, because I really like not getting shot.

1911Tuner
April 3, 2013, 05:26 PM
In the fall of 1976, a guy who I grew up with...and whose life took a bad turn...was shot in a mobile home with a 20 gauge shotgun at a distance of roughly 25 feet, according to another mutual friend who was the 2nd responder with the Forsyth County Sheriff's office.

Daryl Rothrock, approximate age 23.

Daryl was wearing a zipped denim jacket when he was shot high center chest with a load of #6 shot.

One witness stated that he dropped like a sack of wet laundry...jerked twice...gurgled for a few seconds...and died.

Deputy old friend said that his chest cavity sloshed when the paramedics put him on the gurney.

clavy2
August 4, 2013, 01:37 PM
Not questioning birdshot's damage at close range, I happen to think it is extremely dangerous but the x-ray and pics in the link are of someone's right shoulder, not left.

Deltaboy
August 4, 2013, 07:48 PM
Prayers sent for this guy, He violated the rules and it cost him a pound of flesh. I would beat my SIL,and if I was the SIL Boss at the PD he would be gunless and on desk duty for at least 90 day plus daily safe gun training too boot.

As for the Birdshot debate Shotguns kill things but I use what the PD does.

Double Naught Spy
August 5, 2013, 06:39 AM
Not questioning birdshot's damage at close range, I happen to think it is extremely dangerous but the x-ray and pics in the link are of someone's right shoulder, not left.

LOL, yes it is. Makes you wonder about the story, doesn't it? Generally, people know where they have been shot.

Al Thompson
August 5, 2013, 07:55 AM
What were those pesky 4 rules again? :rolleyes:

lemaymiami
August 5, 2013, 08:48 AM
One of the guys I worked with (not on my crew -on another squad) took an almost point blank contact wound to the knee area from a single shot .410. This was a case of a suicidal intoxicated subject holding himself hostage.... A supervisor (who should have known better) instead of allowing the situation to resolve itself with patience and negotiation (while everyone kept to cover) worked his way behind the subject and jumped him from the rear. As they struggled to the ground other officers felt obligated to jump in and during the struggle -that's when the gun fired.

The officer hit in the knee had several surgeries over the years and the last I heard they were still considering removing the lower leg.... Not a good situation, particularly since it didn't have to happen at all... That 410 was a birdshot round and it pretty much blew up the guy's knee....

Fred Fuller
August 5, 2013, 08:51 AM
Defensive firearms trainer Clint Smith says he likes shotguns for defense because they can remove meat and bone. Object lesson, there...

Double Naught Spy
August 5, 2013, 10:00 AM
After clavy2's post and looking at the story more carefully, this all seems very unrealistic. The pictures may be real enough, but the story seems over-the-top and maybe having nothing to do with the story. After doing a variety of searches for ND stories including on a couple of the anti-sites that post such accounts, this story of a police officer with a major self inflicted shotgun shoulder wound in November of 2012 or earlier doesn't show up. Such officer-involved shootings rarely go unnoticed by the media.

That he is a police officer, his son-in-law a Marine, that his son-in-law had formerly shot off one of his own fingers (his "left finger"), that he doesn't even know which shoulder was shot....this all just doesn't add up to a credible story.

LeonCarr
August 5, 2013, 04:00 PM
The shotgun is one of the few shoulder fired small arms that can stop a threat and disassemble a threat at the same time.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

200Apples
August 5, 2013, 05:40 PM
....this all just doesn't add up to a credible story.

I hear ya, but, still... It paints a picture. A picture I don't wish to appear in.

:cool:

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