Gun for self defence


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Nick_90
March 13, 2004, 07:08 AM
Hi,

I am 27 years old and live in Switzerland. Over here, all types and calibers of guns are freely on the market except full auto weapons. My parents are in their early 70s and I would like them to keep a gun at home for self defense (even Switzerland isn't 100% safe nowadays).
I myself own, apart from my own service SIG P 220 pistol and SiG 550 assault rifle, 1 S&W 686, 1 Glock 19, 1 S&W 915, 1 Steyr M9, 2 Walther PPK's, 1 Walther PP and a few other more ancient handguns.
My parents have tried all of them and their preference goes to the Walther PPK's. Apart from the fact that 7.65 rounds aren't ideal for self defence, I am afraid that the spring in the magazine, after having been contracted for years, may brake the day the weapon is needed.
For the above cited reasons, I would prefer my parents to have a .38 revolver. Which make and model would you recommend? Or can I rely upon the spring in an autoloader's magazine? ( I must admit that I keep my SIG 220 loaded all year long and have never had a problem...)

Thank you for your advice...

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Jack19
March 13, 2004, 07:12 AM
If they like the Walther, buy a new magazine spring.

Giving them a weapon they like, and enjoy using, goes a long way toward their being able to use it successfully if the time comes. 7.65 may not be ideal, but it beats a sharp stick.

whm1974
March 13, 2004, 07:20 AM
My parents have tried all of them and their preference goes to the Walther PPK's. Apart from the fact that 7.65 rounds aren't ideal for self defence, I am afraid that the spring in the magazine, after having been contracted for years, may brake the day the weapon is needed.

keep in mind your parents age. At 70 they might have a hard time handling the recoil
of a .38 or 9mm. Consider getting them two .22 revovlers. They can keep them loaded
and no recoil to speak of. You may laugh at this but having a mouse shooter is better then nothing.

Bill Meadows

MicroBalrog
March 13, 2004, 07:25 AM
Could you get them a longarm?

P.S. Two questions about guns in Switzerland:

1.Are these registered/licensed?

2.How about carrying them?

Nick_90
March 13, 2004, 07:48 AM
Thank you for your advice....

I certainly could get them a long arm but I wouldn't really know which to buy. I own a Mossberg 500 but I think the recoil would be too severe for my parents.

As to the registration of guns, ones that are sold in gun shops are registered by the police whereas sales between private cititzens are free. That is I believe, to stop Switzerland from becoming the supermarket of arms in Europe, other european countries having much more severe gun control legislations.

Carrying guns in Switzerland is strictly forbiden by federal law since 1999. The only possibility is to obtain a license but such an obtention is very difficult. Before 1999, gun legislation was left to the Cantons (States) but is now federal.

MicroBalrog
March 13, 2004, 08:14 AM
In that care, I recommend an AR-15 variant if such are legal in your country, but better experts will advise on better guns. I think that if a gun is home defense only, you better get a longarm.

As to the registration of guns, ones that are sold in gun shops are registered by the police whereas sales between private cititzens are free.

So I buy a gun in a shop and register it and then sell it to you off-paper? What's the point?

:uhoh:

Carrying guns in Switzerland is strictly forbiden by federal law since 1999.

What do the Pro-Tell guys think of that?

c_yeager
March 13, 2004, 08:21 AM
So I buy a gun in a shop and register it and then sell it to you off-paper? What's the point?

hehehehe in America we call this "the gun show loophole".

edited to add: Magazine springs are pretty durable. Many tests have been conducted that conclude that storing a magazine loaded won't effect reliability. You could always just get a new spring if it bugs ya.

Also, i dont know if its available over there but Walther makes a PPK/s in .380 (9mm kurtz or short) as well that would be a step up from the .32

MicroBalrog
March 13, 2004, 08:24 AM
hehehehe in America we call this "the gun show loophole

But in America they can't keep registration records either.

El Tejon
March 13, 2004, 08:26 AM
Welcome to THR, Nick!:)

As to gun choice and parents, you have to let them decide. My father is now retired from Rolls Royce, but works part-time as a consultant. He is someone who is fortunate to have many resources available to him.

His carry and nightstand pistol=a 4" ss Ruger Police Service Six that I purchased at a gun show for $200 and gave to him as a birthday present since I knew he respected Ruger as an engineer.:eek: This decision was beyond me when I discovered his choice.

He replied, "don't be a fool, Kirk. I wouldn't shoot someone with a pistol--I'd use my shotgun." Can you tell we are Hoosiers? :D

Majic
March 13, 2004, 12:44 PM
But in America they can't keep registration records either.
Don't put your faith in the records not being kept. They do indeed keep them under the disguise that they will need them for audits. That point is still being fought over.

Chipperman
March 13, 2004, 12:54 PM
They "can't"
That does not mean they "don't"
:uhoh:

Nick_90
March 13, 2004, 02:54 PM
MicroBalrog: Answer to your two questions:

-It is quite true that you can buy a registered gun from a store and then sell it the day after to another citizen. I do not actually find this a problem. I think the registration of guns sold by gunshops is intended to stop dubious people from acquiring large amounts of guns and reselling them abroad. It's in that sense that the federal law must be construed.

-As to your second question, I don't believe Pro Tell was too pleased with the restrictions of gun carry but they where probably relieved that the law didn't go even further.

-We are now fighting a proposal by the loony left who want to register all weapons and effectivly end the detention at home of assault weapons by soldiers. Luckily the more right wing governement which was elected last december has shelved the revision of the federal law. But we have to stay on our guards - just like you!

Black Majik
March 13, 2004, 04:00 PM
how bout' a .410 youth shotgun? I'd figure it'd be easy to rack the forearm and it has minimal recoil compared to a 12 ga. Plus a shotgun at that close distance is effective, even a .410

MicroBalrog
March 13, 2004, 04:11 PM
I do not actually find this a problem

Neither do I.

I don't believe Pro Tell was too pleased with the restrictions of gun carry but they where probably relieved that the law didn't go even further.

No repeal attempts or something? I've heard Pro-Tell people were pretty gung-go, is that true?

who want to register all weapons and effectivly end the detention at home of assault weapons by soldiers.

Don't, and I repeat, DON'T let them do it. At any cost. As long as there remains a relatively free European country, it stands as a proof to the gun controllers that they are complete wackos.:p

Why don't you own any rifles?

Josey
March 13, 2004, 05:31 PM
Nothing weong with 7.65. A Walther that one if comfortable with is a fine weapon indeed.

MagKnightX
March 13, 2004, 05:47 PM
So full auto isn't freely available, but is it at all available except for your duty weapon, like the Form 4 transfers here in the states?

Lone Star
March 14, 2004, 09:54 AM
Nick-

This is very interesting. I'd wondered about current Swiss laws.

Do your parents have arthritis, weak muscles, etc. that might make it difficult for them to cock the slide on an automatic?


For many years, the standard advice over here among gun professionals is that if someone needs a handgun and isn't an enthusiast, the best idea is for them to have a Smith & Wesson M10 or the stainless M64 equivalent.
I think it is still valid. I'd get them a Smith & Wesson M64 with three-inch or four-inch (100mm) barrel. If the gun doesn't come with rubber grips, as so many newer ones do, I'd add a pair of Uncle Mike's (now Butler Creek) grips or a Tyler T-Grip adaptor.

If that gun seems too heavy, get a S&W Chief's Special .38. It has only five shots, but it's smaller and lighter. The three-inch barrel is easier to shoot well and has more velocity than a snubnose, and the extractor rod will fully eject the fired cases on three-inch barrelled guns.

And I'd take them to the range to be sure that they experience the recoil and know how to hit what they need to. Safety training if they need it should be done first, at home. (I realize that your father is probably a trained soldier, or was.)

Can you use hollowpoint ammunition? That certainly helps with most handgun calibers.

How reliably do your PPK and PP Walthers feed? As a range officer, I saw many of them jam, at least occasionally. Revolvers are usually more reliable.
Lone Star

Stand_Watie
March 14, 2004, 10:42 AM
I'd be a lot more comfortable with your parents using a longarm for home defense if they're not already gun enthusiasts.

I don't think a 20 guage would be too much for them, and if you thought they'd have difficulty with the slide, could get an auto loader.

Penforhire
March 14, 2004, 08:32 PM
Yeah, another suggestion for a 20 ga or similar shotgun. Not much recoil if the weapon is nice and heavy.

Orion
March 14, 2004, 08:46 PM
Dude, I'm not sure I want to help you since you got the 550 and all.

My advise would be to upgrade the mag in the PPk or get them a K frame 65/66 and load it up with +p's. that way they get the leave it alone ease of the revolver. with the K frame the recoil wouldn't be too bad either.

moa
March 15, 2004, 05:17 PM
For years in America the gun magazines like Guns & Ammo, etc. had articles written by their experts on what is the best option for a defensive weapon, especially a handgun for someone starting off.

Consensus of opinion was a .357 magnum double action revolver. The .357 gives the user a number of ammunition options from .38 through .357.

For low maintenance, stainless steel is good. Also something that has significant weight like around 30 ounces on up to help control felt recoil, like a mid-sized frame revolver. Three or four inch barrel.

In the US, Ruger and Taurus makes are available and have good quality, inexpensive handguns with the above characteristics.

Nick_90
March 17, 2004, 05:31 AM
Thank you very much for your kind advice...
To answer some of your questions, no, full auto weapons aren't allowed for most citizens over here. The permit to own them is very difficult to obtain: one of my friends collects German WWII weapons and wanted a permit to buy a Schmeisser MP 38. If he hadn't had political connections, it would have been almost impossible.
But I think we can be fairly happy in comparison to other european countries where guns are all but forbidden. But we must stay aware because, like in America, certain left wing politicians want to diminish our rights to detain arms...

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