Pistol Projectiles


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rodwha
March 13, 2013, 05:55 PM
I intend to carry my Old Army as a backup while hunting with my .50 cal Deerstalker. My main concern is hogs, and I originally bought several of Kaido's 240 grn version of modern conicals.

My thoughts were that I'd want the flat nosed profile and extra weight for the penetration I'm told I'll need when dealing with the heavier of these guys.

As I'm considering how it was said by Civil War vets that RB's were much better as man stoppers and conicals for game animals (they were talking of .36 cal projectiles if I'm not mistaken) it got me to thinking that the reason being is that the velocity with the lighter RB's makes it expand more readily, which gives a larger wound cavity, but reduces its ability to penetrate as deep. The conicals, on the other hand, being heavier and slower, wouldn't expand as large, and with the heavier weight, penetrate deeper.

At close range (<15 yds) would the larger wound be better than deeper penetration? If a RB is a better man stopper wouldn't it do well at close range on an average size hog (<200 lbs)? If I'm being charged by a p*ssed off hog I need it to go down quickly, and assuming the worst it may be more of a point and shoot affair.

I'm curious as to whether anyone has tested the diameter of the projectile against its penetration. According to the work Duelist did in comparing projectiles and powders I see (using T7) that the modern conical penetrated about twice as far, which is exceptional. Water jugs aren't much like flesh and bone though...

Who has used RB's in their pistols for hunting? What were your results?

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Patocazador
March 13, 2013, 07:14 PM
Big heavy bullets win out every time against big heavy animals.

Hogs generally won't charge unless you are blocking their escape route or you already superficially wounded them and pi$$ed them off.

raa-7
March 13, 2013, 08:00 PM
I havent used my BP .44 revolver for hunting yet but I would be darn confident to bring it with me Hog hunting for sure and to use my .454 soft lead RB"s on em.Maybe next year I will.Our state has plenty of hogs !

woodnbow
March 13, 2013, 08:09 PM
also plays into this. The main reason the Keith type bullets work so well is that wide flat point.

I wondered if it was as effective as old Elmer said it was, even after I'd used them on game, and then I got the die for the SGB. (Small Game Bullet for .22 long rifle.) Basically you place a standard .22 in the die and then file away the round nose from the bullet. The results compared side by side on ground squirrels made a believer out of me. The wide flat point at standard .22 velocities is devasting compared to a round nosed bullet. Much more tissue damage, much larger exit wounds. The heavier weight of the Kaido bullet allows better penetration than a roundball along with the most effective profile available for cap and ball.. my dos centavos...

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tips/archive_tips.htm/25

Not a link to the Hanned tool but here's how you make the SGB for those who might be interested...

rodwha
March 14, 2013, 10:18 AM
"...or you already superficially wounded them and pi$$ed them off."

This is my concern. Were I to wound the critter instead of dropping it...

I'm a meat hunter, and would likely shoot the little ones or the sows. But I can't say I wouldn't like the head of some big shaggy hog with big tusks on my wall, and I don't keep any heads.

The shape:
Kaido's bullets are 7-11 BHN, which is a little hard for a cap n ball. I'm not sure how well they would deform. But I'll be trying out some 230 grn bullets that are cast from softer lead (I believe). Being a little lighter they'll go a little faster, and being softer, ought to expand much easier. Maybe these are the better projectile between the 3.

What do you think?

Noz
March 14, 2013, 10:27 AM
I'm a bit of a coward where hogs are concerned. I also like the shape of my legs. I would carry the ML rifle for the initial shots. If a hog threatened my body then the 41 magnum with a whole lot of W296 under a wide nose flat point 250 grain would come out for defense.

rodwha
March 14, 2013, 10:57 AM
I am too! But not so much that I won't.

A 255 grn Kaido bullet pushed by 25 grns of Triple 7 produced 920 fps and 479 ft/lbs of energy.

He reduced his load by just over 15% and didn't give it much compression. I'm using (for now) Kaido's 240 grn version and can get 35 grns of T7 with plenty of compression. I don't have a chronograph, but it ought to be sailing much faster with more energy.

Not that water jugs behave similarly to flesh and bone, but that tested 255 grn load penetrated 11 one gallon jugs and kept going. Not bad!

rodwha
March 14, 2013, 10:59 AM
But I have also heard of people getting passthroughs on deer using RB's from pistols. Probably not connecting with bone though...

Patocazador
March 14, 2013, 12:55 PM
Personally, I wouldn't be that concerned with expansion on a hog, especially a boar. I think penetration is more important when trying to stop one of the shielded brutes .. and shot placement.

rodwha
March 14, 2013, 01:36 PM
I'd probably be better served designing boots that'll help me climb trees without using my hands! :D

Rattus58
March 15, 2013, 08:03 AM
I intend to carry my Old Army as a backup while hunting with my .50 cal Deerstalker. My main concern is hogs, and I originally bought several of Kaido's 240 grn version of modern conicals.

My thoughts were that I'd want the flat nosed profile and extra weight for the penetration I'm told I'll need when dealing with the heavier of these guys.

As I'm considering how it was said by Civil War vets that RB's were much better as man stoppers and conicals for game animals (they were talking of .36 cal projectiles if I'm not mistaken) it got me to thinking that the reason being is that the velocity with the lighter RB's makes it expand more readily, which gives a larger wound cavity, but reduces its ability to penetrate as deep. The conicals, on the other hand, being heavier and slower, wouldn't expand as large, and with the heavier weight, penetrate deeper.

At close range (<15 yds) would the larger wound be better than deeper penetration? If a RB is a better man stopper wouldn't it do well at close range on an average size hog (<200 lbs)? If I'm being charged by a p*ssed off hog I need it to go down quickly, and assuming the worst it may be more of a point and shoot affair.

I'm curious as to whether anyone has tested the diameter of the projectile against its penetration. According to the work Duelist did in comparing projectiles and powders I see (using T7) that the modern conical penetrated about twice as far, which is exceptional. Water jugs aren't much like flesh and bone though...

Who has used RB's in their pistols for hunting? What were your results?
All of my round balls have gone right through every animal I've shot with them, so I don't know what they expanded to. I shot a nice boar with a 530 grain Lyman 577611 that opened up to a silver dollar and I found it under the offside skin (thick). This is a minie so I don't know what that means, but this is the ONLY bullet that ever got trapped in the animal.

I've shot pigs with a round ball and they don't go anywhere (58) so its hard to guage. My 54's whistle through too, though I've never shot a pig with my 54. I hunt with a 45 caliber shooting 470 grain to 530 grain conicals and they whistle right through deer as did as far out as 123 yards for a 50(.504).

So, back to pigs. If you've the Kaida bullet why are you even thinking about a round ball?

Aloha...:cool:)

rodwha
March 15, 2013, 09:28 AM
The Kaido bullets are too expensive at $40/100 + shipping.

My contemplations have been mostly about how well a RB penetrates. RB's tend to mushroom better from what I understand, which, seems to me to be the better projectile to launch at something that wants to chew on my knee cap.

But how well would a RB from a pistol do if it hits bone? Being light and soft I'm not so sure it'll do all that well. And so these soft 230 grn FN bullets seem like an ideal compromise.

Kaido's bullets are somewhat hard (7-11 BHN) and being heavy they may not expand much at all. I don't know if it "over penetrates." And by that I mean if this 230 grn bullet will expand and go all the way through isn't it a waste to get no expansion and complete penetration? But I can't claim to really understand all of this. And I've been told many times that you can't look at this in the same light as modern stuff. I don't see this as so different though...

rodwha
March 15, 2013, 09:29 AM
Oh, and I'm considering RB's as they are even cheaper and more readily available. If they will more than do the job why bother with a special order bullet?

nobody1369
March 15, 2013, 09:54 AM
nobody1369
Member


Join Date: February 6, 2011
Location: central texas
Posts: 48
Wild Hogs
Curious , any of you guys shoot wild hogs with your cap and ball?http://youtu.be/AGq3Wslk1S0
Last edited by nobody1369; October 30, 2012 at 10:46 PM.

nobody1369
March 15, 2013, 09:59 AM
30 grains of Goex,.457 ball , shorty Remington.
Shot at least 6 at similar ranges, that was a wild hog I trapped and fed out for a few. First time he'd seen someone in his pen.

Patocazador
March 15, 2013, 11:37 AM
Wild Hogs
Curious , any of you guys shoot wild hogs with your cap and ball?http://youtu.be/AGq3Wslk1S0
Last edited by nobody1369; October 30, 2012 at 10:46 PM.

Not a big one but it is a hog.

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll33/docjawbraker/IMG_0406web.jpg

rodwha
March 15, 2013, 12:41 PM
What are the particulars of that event? Range, load, circumstances (hunting or tracking-critter was still and unknowing or on alert/running), etc?

kituwa
March 15, 2013, 03:41 PM
I have not shot a hog with a cap n ball before, but i have shot many many of them with centerfire pistols. They are not as hard to kill as many think they are.That thick shield on the bigger boars does not affect bullet penetration much at all from what i have seen.Their vitals are NOT in the same places as a deer though so you have to take that into account.The lungs are higher and more upfront on a hog,if you aim for a lung shot on a hog like you would if it was a deer you prolly wont hit many vitals.With modern centerfire pistols i did find that the bullet types that are highly touted as expanding well for self defense were in fact some of the worse for not opening up, especially in .45 auto.It is hard to find a normal .45 auto bullet that will expand at all on a hog.A .45 super is another story though.I had two custom auto's chamberd for 9x23 that worked outstanding on hogs and deer both.The loads i used in the 9x23 were a near match to the 357 125gr @ 1400fps loads.I had a hot load with a xtp 124gr @ 1250 that i used in a cutom browning high power that worked well too.I shot a good many with a custom ruger blackhawk with a heavy octagon barrel in .45 colt that i used heavy 300gr bullets that of coarse would shoot length wize through a hog. I have shot a good many deer in the past with diffrent cap n ball revolvers and they work well on deer with just a round ball even.More than half of the deer i shot with round ball the ball exited the deer even with just 30gr loads in a 1860 army.The ROA i had was near perfect for shooting deer and i am sure would be great on hogs too.I did have a mold for the ROA that made a 225gr hollow point but cant remember who made that mold,wished i still had it.I will say that a cap n ball with pure lead balls is not comparable with modern bullets. They react completly diffrent than modern jacketed bullets or harder cast bullets on game.They make a far worse wound channel and still seem to penetrate well on deer/hog size animals.I dont think useing harder cast conical or flat base bullets for a cap n ball is going to make it more deadly for most game.A soft lead flat point or hollow point type may work well though. While a walker or ROA may sound super powerfull with a full load they do not turn an animal inside out and even a .454 casul doesnt,,it is mostly just punching a hole through the vitals that make them work and even the round ball seems to do that with out much problems.

ThorinNNY
March 15, 2013, 04:05 PM
I retrieved a Minie ball,( nominal size.577 inch )from a critter. The nose had mushroomed to .974 inch ,about 1.6 times it`s nominal size. The ball had been cast from very soft lead, which works best in Civil War type muskets.

Patocazador
March 15, 2013, 08:46 PM
What are the particulars of that event? Range, load, circumstances (hunting or tracking-critter was still and unknowing or on alert/running), etc?
I was sitting in a tree on public land & had already killed 160 lb. sow with my rifle load. A group of 6 of these came by so I let loose with my Old Army at 25 yds. and missed .. and missed again .. and finally broke this one's back at ~35 yds. Climbed down and finished him. That was before I replaced my front sight and my ROA was shooting 11" high at 25 yards. Now it's right on at 35 yds.

I was shooting 220 conicals with 30 gr. of 3FG that day.

Rattus58
March 16, 2013, 12:22 PM
The Kaido bullets are too expensive at $40/100 + shipping.

My contemplations have been mostly about how well a RB penetrates. RB's tend to mushroom better from what I understand, which, seems to me to be the better projectile to launch at something that wants to chew on my knee cap.

But how well would a RB from a pistol do if it hits bone? Being light and soft I'm not so sure it'll do all that well. And so these soft 230 grn FN bullets seem like an ideal compromise.

Kaido's bullets are somewhat hard (7-11 BHN) and being heavy they may not expand much at all. I don't know if it "over penetrates." And by that I mean if this 230 grn bullet will expand and go all the way through isn't it a waste to get no expansion and complete penetration? But I can't claim to really understand all of this. And I've been told many times that you can't look at this in the same light as modern stuff. I don't see this as so different though...
If I remember correctly, you sayed that you wanted a backup gun for your 50. You also indicated to my recollection that you were worried about a "charging and Pissed Off" animal/hog ifn my recovering memory serves. If that is your actually envisioned scenario I wouldn't care less how much a Kaido bullet was for several reasons; one is that if you are engaged in the scenario you lead me to vision, you a) aint gonna get many shots off and b) if it actually has you in its sights a .308 might not stop it head on and a calm shot low into the chest might serve better... but again... if its a coming... I'm saying this from memory of having been treed once by such a particularly intended though mortally wounded sow....

Aloha... :cool:

rodwha
March 16, 2013, 01:36 PM
Indeed that was the scenario I had given, and my biggest concern.
I am strongly considering a RB as I keep finding accounts of it working exceedingly well, and leaving horrific wounds beyond belief while still completely penetrating. That's much of what seems to have been the case during the Civil War.
I would like to use my pistol as a primary hunting weapon as well, but I've yet to keep my groups small enough (<4") at 25 yds. I often get ~6" with a flier or two opening it up further. This is with the Kaido bullets.
But I'm still getting accustomed to it. Hopefully I'll improve enough quite soon.

rodwha
March 16, 2013, 01:39 PM
Patocazador: I assume you got full penetration with the conical?
How much and of what sort of powder were you using?

Patocazador
March 16, 2013, 03:40 PM
Patocazador: I assume you got full penetration with the conical?
How much and of what sort of powder were you using?
See above.

kituwa
March 16, 2013, 07:01 PM
Rodwah, i think you will do just fine with round balls unless you are shooting really big boars over 200 lbs. If your 4 inch groups at 25 yards is off hand then that is not bad. Just limit your shots to 25 or 30 yards.A shooting stick will help a lot too.I know a lot of people think the sights on most cap n ball revolvers are crude but i actually like the fine sights they have as long as it is fixed to shoot point of aim.They do not work well in low light but even better sights like on a ruger old army suck in low light too.If a person was going to use their revolver a lot to hunt with it would be nice to have a front sight made with a fiber optic insert.I used to have a remington that i made a sight like that for and it worked well.It may be diffrent some places but here in south bama where i hunt pigs it is really thick and a 25 yard shot is normal if not closer.They dont hold still for long though.A quartering away shot is best, just put your ball close in right on the crease of his front leg and low and he wont go far if any.Once you get into some pigs you will be hooked for life,,its great fun.My wife even loves to hog hunt with a handgun.To me, no other gun is better suited for hog hunting than a handgun and a cap n ball is the funest of all.

Dave Markowitz
March 17, 2013, 09:03 PM
Keep in mind that the conical bullets used in the Civil War had a much different profile than than Kaido's bullets. The bullets used in the 19th Century had an almost pointed profile, rather than the nice, wide meplat of Kaido's design. It makes a difference in terminal effect.

MCgunner
March 17, 2013, 09:36 PM
I'm a bit of a coward where hogs are concerned. I also like the shape of my legs. I would carry the ML rifle for the initial shots. If a hog threatened my body then the 41 magnum with a whole lot of W296 under a wide nose flat point 250 grain would come out for defense.

I'm guessing maybe BP only rules? There are WMAs in Texas where BP only is the rule and having my ROA along for 6 more is a good idea methinks.

I have tested mine with a full compressed charge of FFFG triple 7 and a 220 grain Lee cast hollow point. It pushed 1300 fps, but by the forth shot, was beginning to pull the bullets far enough out to make cocking a little harder as the bullet nose contacted the forcing cone. I'm not sure what the cure for THAT one would be. I get between 900 and 1000 fps from a full charge of Pyrodex P with that same bullet. Good thing is, that gun is DEADLY accurate and shoots same POA, somehow, with everything I have shot in it. :D

Yeah, I kinda would prefer my stainless Blackhawk with 300 grain Hornady .451" XTPs moving 1120 fps from a healthy dose of 2400, but hey, rules are rules on a BP only WMA. I've killed several hunting with a .357 magnum, one with a 140 JHP to the head, a small one, so I'm pretty sure the Old Army is enough gun. The question here is the bullet, which I am interested in. I don't trust my HPs to expand, but they probably would work a might better than a round nose.....probably.

MCgunner
March 17, 2013, 09:51 PM
I would like to use my pistol as a primary hunting weapon as well, but I've yet to keep my groups small enough (<4") at 25 yds. I often get ~6" with a flier or two opening it up further. This is with the Kaido bullets.

Is that benched or YOU shooting off hand? My gun with a rest will put all my 220 conicals/HPs into 2" or less with ANY load I've tried, even the hot 777 loads. It can do better if you moderate the load, but 2" is good enough for hunting IMHO. I will not take an off hand shot if it's my primary and I'm hunting from a stand or box blind. Even if I were just sitting by a tree, i'd take my shooting sticks or my monopod. Off hand, I can keep it near 4" which is good 'nuf on a charging pig. I've been charged, as someone alluded to, he had been wounded and was NOT happy, in heavy cover. I used a .357 magnum to shoot him, 165 grain cast SWC at 1400 or so fps from a 4" gun fired double action and, let me tell ya, it felt like a 10 ounce target trigger. My adrenalin was up a might. :D That gun was no more accurate, nor could I shoot it any better than my ROA.

Anyway, if that's a benched group from your ROA, that would rule out those particular bullets for me. I'd rather a hit with round ball than a miss with a heavy SWC, personally.

rodwha
March 17, 2013, 10:15 PM
I must despairingly admit that it was rested, though not well. I didn't want to tear up their stuff with the flames so I rested the grip on the table. Not a good rest, but it should have been better than off hand.
My off hand with RBs are a little better. No fliers either. I assume its me as I found I was pulling in expectation of recoil for some reason. Not sure why. Didn't happen with +P loads in a 1911. Though I suppose the action may have eaten a little of the recoil. Almost seems I adopted it when I shot my 44 mag. That's where I first saw the flinch

rodwha
March 17, 2013, 10:18 PM
Those groups were with a max load of 35 grns of 3F T7, but I've since reduced it to 30, but saw no real difference.
I suppose I ought to be shooting off hand as I can't hunt with it yet. For now it's a sidearm when I hunt.
And I doubt I'll need it using a .50 cal rifle. But I'd rather be prepared...

MCgunner
March 17, 2013, 10:35 PM
Sounds like a simple case of flinch. Not uncommon and I suspect most of us went through it, know I did when I was learning to shoot magnum revolvers. Concentration of sight alignment and trigger squeeze cured it for me. If you're flinching and you get a hangfire on a cap and ball, you'll KNOW it. :D With T7, the gun has some hefty recoil, magnum class recoil, but it's a big, heavy gun and soaks it up well. The payback is magnum class energy levels on the business end. :D Practice makes perfect. Just shoot it a lot, something you can't do a lot of with 40 bucks per 100 bullets, but you can do if you cast Lee conicals. :D

woodnbow
March 17, 2013, 10:43 PM
You might also try a set of Pachmeyers or Hogues on that old army. The smallish Ruger/Colt style grips are not the best for handling recoil. A good set of Hogue Pau Ferro grips look right smart as well!

kwhi43@kc.rr.com
March 18, 2013, 12:04 AM
You can put them on Remington's also.
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o127/prizzel/0016.jpg

My Ruger with a pair and a 50 yd target. Fired one hand hold standing.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o127/prizzel/OldArmyTarget.jpg

kituwa
March 18, 2013, 01:45 AM
With a pure lead conical it wont matter how much of a point it has, it will flatten out good at any reasonable hunting distance and 30gr or more powder.But you are right, the Kaido bullet with the big flat nose does do some damage even when hard cast but i think for deer and hogs the Kaio would work much better in most cases if it was just cast with near pure lead.In conventional handguns i like hard cast flat nose bullets better than any hollow point for large cal. handguns.But,,a .45 colt load at 1200fps you cant use soft lead slugs without serious leading,if it were not for that the big flat nose would be sure enough devastating with a soft cast.I know some of the hot loads some are shooting in a cap and ball are over 1200 fps too but with a good lubed wad under the conical or ball or good over bullet lube it usually does not lead the barrel.I guess you could grease up the end of a cylinder full of hot >45 colt, just never though of it before,lol.

kituwa
March 18, 2013, 01:56 AM
kwhi,,that is some great groups for 50 yards offhand!

rodwha
March 18, 2013, 08:33 AM
"If you're flinching and you get a hangfire on a cap and ball, you'll KNOW it."

Indeed! And that is exactly what had happened. And so I've been more conscious of my trigger squeeze and relaxing. I've done much better, but I think a part of my problem is a poor rest, and failing eyesight, along with an imperfect handling of the shooting situation. Though I've certainly improved it's not spot on.

I've been told of a better way to support the gun, which is to rest my forearms instead. I'll be giving that a go soon.

woodnbow
March 18, 2013, 09:38 AM
Nice shooting Kwhi... Rod, I think we should all take lessons here ^^^^ ;-)

rodwha
March 18, 2013, 10:25 AM
No kidding!
Although my targets look much like that...when I get closer!

Patocazador
March 18, 2013, 11:44 AM
Besides flinching another potential cause of poor groups is that some of the bullets with flat meplats are .452 in diameter and recoil causes them to back off the powder load after firing a stout load. It is worse with heavier bullets because they produce more recoil. The lessened pressures that result make the loads act differently. With larger diameter bullets the compression by the loading lever shaves off excess lead and essentially wedges the bullet more firmly in the cylinder's chamber.

Fouling can also have an effect on accuracy as more shots are fired.

kituwa
March 18, 2013, 02:11 PM
Potacazador has a point,part of the problem may well be the bullets moving.Also it seems there can be a lot ofdiffrences in bore and cylinder sizes on diffrent brands of guns or even whithin the same brand but made a diffrent year.I dont like to try and tell someone to hold their gun a certain way or rest it one way or another.Its good to try diffrent methods and just find what way works best for YOU.I cant hit worth squat one handed,i always use both hands and when hunting i use whatever way i can to rest my gun but sometimes you just have to do offhand and thats fine too if the animal is fairly close range. I will say this,in all the years i have shot handguns and helped others with it, the number one thing that will cause flinching and poor shooting is a bad trigger.If you can feel any movement in the trigger before it fires you will almost certainly develope a flinch.I shoot bows a lot and there is something we call target panic when shooting a bow,,this can happen with a handgun too.Its not that much problem when actually hunting though.And,,i have no idea how much experiance you have shooting and i dont want to insult you in any way,,but wear ear protection when you are shooting targets. That loud boom can and will cause flinch not to mention you dont want to have to have the volume turned to max on your TV and your most used word to be "huh?' like i do now.

rodwha
March 18, 2013, 05:58 PM
I'm not one to take offense too often.

I have hunted with modern rifles a fair amount, and I've done fine, though 80 yds was about my longest shot, and I typically used a friend's 270 Win.

Loud booms don't do much to me. I used to do quite well with a 1911 AMT Hardballer using mostly +P loads, and I could keep them all in the black firing as fast as possible.

These loads are similar to the 44 mag with standard ammo.

I think with the 44 mag I used I began trying to compensate for the recoil and would pull, which seems to have carried on into my shooting the Old Army. I found this out with the caps not firing.

I did notice often that 1 or 2 bullets would creep out under recoil to where it keep the cylinder from rotating. I recently read that Kaido designed his 255 grn bullet especially for the ROA as it is a little larger (.460") than the 240 grn (.456" IIRC).

I chose the smaller ones as I've heard that harder bullets (his are 7-11 BHN) could stress the loading lever. Being larger too made me decide on the smaller. And Ruger states that .456" (IIRC) is optimal for the Old Army.

My Ruger's trigger seems good enough. It's not perfect, but it's not bad either.

I also don't clean it at the range. And I generally began by playing with RB's and Pyrodex before I'd swap to T7 and bullets. This very well could have effected my groups.

I'll be trying bullets first, and I suppose I ought to give it a quick cleaning between cylinders. I do carry a small water bottle, diluted dish soap, and all of the other gear for field cleaning. May as well use it and see if it helps.

I had been using 35 grns of 3F T7 with the 240 grn bullet, which was about max. I tried reducing it to 30 grns, but didn't notice much of a difference. But the gun was fouled by then...

I know I've heard many times how accuracy falls off when dirty. I guess I'm just too used to smokeless and hadn't considered it.

kituwa
March 18, 2013, 06:49 PM
Yes those Ruger old armies are great guns and your right, the triggers are not great but sure not bad either.You can get a spring kit for the trigger that helps a lot too without doing a complete trigger job. Just shoot it till it feels natural.Thats they good thing about black powder guns,,you can still afford to shoot em,lol. I may well have some diffrent kinds of grips around here for rugers, i will see if i can find them.I used to do gunsmith work for several gunshops and i keep lots of ruger parts here.I like the ruger bisley grip frames on a blackhawk and i hink they fit on a ROA too.I know i have super blackhawk grip frames and several reg blackhaw frames in both aluminum and steel and i know there is at least one set of ivory blackhawk grips under my bed i saw the other day.I also used to make replacment cylinder pins with a locking setscrew and i saw one of those in a box a few days ago too.I may just have to set my lathe back up so i can keep some of you guys in ROA parts.I used to do a neat custom job on ruger .45 colt blackhawks by putting on the bisley grip frame and hammer and took a section of a old 50 cal octogon barrel and bore it out to fit over the blackhawk barrel.The blackhawk barrels are tapered some though its hard to tell it just looking at them but i bored them out with that taper slightly under size and then heated the sleave till it slipped on and silver soildered it in place.Then i milled out a custom front sight for it and a partially octogon shaped ejector housing to match.The result was a 5 inch barrel that balanced great and looked unique too.You have to remove the barrel to do all that so i always did the cylinder gap closer when i put the barrel back on witch is something most rugers needed to start with.I mostly just did the gunsmith work because i enjoyed it so most times i did not take pay from the gunshops and instead they would give me guns for my work.I used to have so many nice pistols it should have been illeagle,lol.Another thing,,i see a lot of folks here with walkers have probs with the loading lever falling.I have a sheet of teflon that i cut a large washer from that i use in the pivit on the walker loading lever that pretty much cures that especially when combined with fileing the tip of the stock retaining spring just a tad.If anyone wants one they are free, just let me know.

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