Looking for an O/U for occasional clays


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rugerdude
March 13, 2013, 08:07 PM
Now STOP! I can see the words "Just buy a used Browning, Beretta or SKB" already forming in your head!" I know they're very nice and can shoot 400,000 rounds a year for centuries before you need to replace a hammer spring. This simply is not what I intend to use it for.

I'm just wanting an O/U (in 12ga with 28-30" barrels) to round out my shotgun collection more or less, and also to have a spare gun in case I go shoot clays with a buddy. I like my $1150 semi-auto for "serious" shooting. I'm currently going to school on the G.I. Bill, which is great but it doesn't really allow me to save money. I have saved up what I have saved up. Waiting isn't going to allow me to spend more.

That said, I did shoot with a guy the other day who had a Mossberg silver reserve II sporting (and yes, I can see you wincing too). Anyway, I had no idea it was a Mossberg initially and I was pretty impressed with it. It was kinda beefy which I liked and breaking it open was smooth without being loose (and I know that time will tell how long that lasts for). It was definitely not what I was expecting considering what I've read on them. Have times recently changed for Mossbergs? I understand they had, but resolved, a firing pin issue. It was seriously like a Pepsi challenge moment for me when the guy said "Mossberg," granted I'm not extremely experienced with O/U's, but I have shot some quality ones like Kreighoff before.

I should also note that I absolutely hate Stoegers, or any gun where the hammer resets off of the recoil. My father has a Condor, and the safety also liked to switch on after the first shot. No bueno.

From my adventures into internet past, I have seemed to learn that Yildiz shotguns are not universally hated and can sometimes be quite nice-looking. This is at the top of my list unless someone brings something new to light. As I stated before, I actually do kinda dig the Silver Reserve II sporting, are there any recent, known issues related by actual owners? It seems that a lot of people just say "they're crap" and move on, having never owned one. Now, this doesn't mean they can't be right, but I just want to know what breaks (and when if possible).

Also in the running are CZ's just because I like CZ and they meet the price point. I'm not comfortable with ordering a gun online, I want to be able to see the thing in person and make sure it fits me reasonably well beforehand.
Also, I noticed Academy now sells a Webley&Scott (I know, not the "real" kind) for a grand-ish. How are these? From my research they seem to be the top of the line of the Turkish imports...granted we're still talking Turkish import.

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Hunterdad
March 13, 2013, 08:16 PM
Fondled a CZ o/u this past weekend and really like it.

Capstick1
March 13, 2013, 08:50 PM
If you want a good over/under be prepared to spend $1200.00 on a used browning or beretta or $1500.00+ on a new one. You'll get what you pay for when you spend $5-600.00 on one of these cheaper ones. If you don't want to spend this much money then find yourself a decent semiautomatic like a Beretta al3901, or browning silver 12ga.

Mamertine
March 14, 2013, 12:14 AM
I have a cousin that has a FFL and he has commented several times about the visual quality of the shotguns coming out of turkey. He doesn't shoot them so he's not sure how they hold up, but they look good and he hasn't had any complaints yet. Not sure if Yildiz is one of the brands he deals with but I gather Turkey has some skilled machinists making shotguns.

RPRNY
March 14, 2013, 12:53 AM
Winchester FN made 101. Best value for money going. A little light for a target gun but still strong enough for one. Next best would be the new Franchis.

CZ makes good field guns. But they will not stand up to use as a target gun. Same for Yildiz.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

rugerdude
March 14, 2013, 01:39 AM
See, that's sort of what I'm on about. I always hear "they won't stand up to clay shooting" but I read very little in the way of "well, 1,000 rounds in and my Yildiz/CZ/Silver Reserve just fell apart." What is it that breaks? At what point does the gun quit shooting?

It seems like the horror stories involve factory defects that are spotted early on. One thing is for sure though, if I do end up with a Yildiz or whatever I'm going to document round count and overall condition to put some more information out there.

I actually really like the look of the Franchis and I have known them to be great values (I have an I-12 sporting for my serious clay gun), but their new O/U shotguns are stupid light, especially for clays.

OldTex
March 14, 2013, 03:57 AM
I guess you can strike off all 6 of my Brownings that have hundreds of thousands of rounds through them with one $10 repair bill since they have that stupid recoil trigger for the second barrel. No worries though. They're probably too heavy for you anyway.

cota
March 14, 2013, 07:13 AM
Used look for a miroku some thing that fits your needs, they are a B gun quality gun at mid range prices.
Similar price range to the above but new Get a Baikal 27 or if you want a Browning cynergy styled gun get the TOZ34 both these guns are steel compliant and are very well made despite the price. If you are buying cheap baikal are the best safest option/

rugerdude
March 14, 2013, 10:07 AM
Old Tex, I like the passive aggressive response, however please do try to contribute something of worth. This is The High Road after all. I didn't say I'm against Brownings or that I think they're bad guns or not worth it, however for my purposes I just don't need something on that level. I'm sure their recoil activated hammers are great, but in my experience, the lower end guns have issues with it. I'm not sure what I did to imply physical weakness, but rest assured my Barrett M107 that I hauled with me in Afghanistan wasn't too heavy at 35lbs, and neither are your Brownings. ;)

Just to reiterate, I'm not against B-guns. I know they're the bees knees, but this is a casual use gun. Stories of 100,000 trouble free rounds are great, but you might as well be talking about your Laes Baer 1911 for all it matters here.

Oh, and thanks cota! I actually shot skeet competitively in highschool and your suggestion reminded me that our best shooter shot with an EAA Baikal shotgun. I can't remember what type it was exactly, but her grandfather was a gunsmith and he was very impressed with those guns and highly recommended them. I guess they aren't as easily found these days though.

bannockburn
March 14, 2013, 01:02 PM
If I was looking for a casual use/all-purpose O/U I would try to find a used Franchi Renaissance. I can't recall what one of them weighs but I found it to be a very fast handling shotgun for my use. I also liked the overall feel and balance of the gun itself, reminding me of a Beretta O/U I had some years before. Quality of the Franchi was first rate and I have no doubt that it would give you many years of reliable service.

RPRNY
March 14, 2013, 01:34 PM
See, that's sort of what I'm on about. I always hear "they won't stand up to clay shooting" but I read very little in the way of "well, 1,000 rounds in and my Yildiz/CZ/Silver Reserve just fell apart." What is it that breaks? At what point does the gun quit shooting?

Terribly sorry. I thought you were after Information, not Affirmation.


Please feel free to purchase a field gun that will perform as intended for years with several hundred rounds per annum through it. But if you intend to shoot clays - which will likely mean several thousand rounds per annum - be prepared for broken firing pins (common problem with Huglu made CZs up through 2007), doubling (typical Stoeger issue and common Ruger Red Label issue) stock cracking (any light field gun when used hard), underlug erosion (an issue with older Turkish and some Spanish guns) loosening forearm hardware (an issue with all hard used light field guns and entry level target guns - including my Browning Cynergy and, yes, Brownings, Berettas etc. in the 2K - 3K range are entry level target guns) and ejector issues (on those low priced models that may have them rather than extractors.

Target guns are built to withstand heavy repeated use and be rebuilt, a thousand rounds a week for example. Field guns (including very expensive ones) place a premium on low weight over durability, and will also have issues if used as target guns (let alone the other issues that make them unsuitable). Cheap field guns? You guessed it. The exception to the rule is the Baikal. They are overbuilt and will handle a good deal of abuse. They have the handling, balance, and looks of a T54 tank.

I gave you good information and a best value for money entry level gun recommendation. You most certainly don't have to act on it. But reverting with "that's not what I want to hear so you must be wrong" is both impolite and ill advised. If you prefer affirmation, go to Shotgun World to the appropriate "I love my Pakistani Double" forum and you will find many like-minded folk operating in denial.

If you want cheap and reliable and are willing to live with occasional jamming, a Beretta 3901 S/A is your best bet by far, as are the new A300 series. Good double guns are expensive. That's just the way it is. Not wanting it to be so does not change that fact.

rugerdude
March 14, 2013, 02:19 PM
RPRNY, thank you for your response! I did not mean to come across as someone just brushing off your advice. You have in one post provided more than all that I have previously found regarding actual specific issues, which was what I was after. Like I said, I know that the conventional wisdom is that target guns need to be built quite sturdily and that's not something you get at a low price point, however, people RARELY go beyond "they're crap." If brand X is a crap gun, I'd like to know why. It may be simply that they have stiff actions or a weak finish or poor fit, but I may not necessarily care about shortcomings in one particular area.

Here's my other concern: Everybody automatically jumps into this magical world of people shooting 1,000 rounds a week. Once again, thanks RPRNY for not doing this. However, on many of the budget O/U threads it's like there are only two possible things you could ever do with a shotgun; hunt twice a year, or shoot professionally. As I said before, this is for busting clays alongside my Franchi autoloader, perhaps 1,500 rounds a year or less.

Maybe I'm just slow to wrap my head around it, but with at least 5 or 6 different manufacturers making O/U shotguns in the 800-ish range I just can't seem to fathom how they could all be worthless and extremely fragile. And I'll admit that that is an assumption based on theory and maybe not so much reality. But this assumption isn't necessarily wrong considering the information that I've found. People just say "Oh the B-guns will last a lifetime" which is awesome, but how about a gun that will last a few years while I'm in college? I have no delusions of happily shooting a budget O/U for decades people, but are the 800 range doubles really so bad as to not even do that?

Kristensdaddy
March 14, 2013, 03:20 PM
I'll get stuff thrown at me for this but one of the best buys on the used gun rack at the moment is the old Remington 3200. I regularly see them under $1K. They have mechanical triggers. Lots of folks hate them, personally, I still like them.

towerdog
March 14, 2013, 07:34 PM
I just bought a Mosberg Silver Reserve from a neighbor for a good deal and I really like it. I admit I have never shot a high end O/U nor do I shoot a lot of clays but It is something I am wanting to learn and starting to enjoy. Maybe down the road I will upgrade but for now it seems like a really nice Occasional use O/U.

rugerdude
March 14, 2013, 07:45 PM
Oh, and I can't believe I didn't think of this before, but say I found a used SKB or B-gun that had fixed chokes. Could I then simply have it bored out to Skeet choke dimensions?

I hear all the time "Buy a used B-gun" which I totally would if I could find one that fit my criteria, but that's the trouble. Would there be a significant downside to this considering I only wish to use this gun for skeet?

I went and looked at a Stevens Goldwing and a CZ canvasback today (the only 2 O/U's I could find in my little town) and the CZ appeared to be okay, but a little light and wasn't the exact model I wanted. The Stevens on the other hand was pretty bad in comparison, stiffer action, sloppy safety/barrel selector and all.

I will be making a day out of searching the gun stores and pawn shops in Tulsa on Saturday though. Maybe I might find something.

ATLDave
March 14, 2013, 07:48 PM
My dad has a Browning Citori, and I use a Beretta Silver Pigeon, so I'm a reflexive "get a B-gun" guy. That said, my dad also has a Stoeger 20 gauge O/U that he got for well under $1k about 2 years ago. Is it as good as a B-gun? Probably not, but there are lots of little orange and black ceramic shards that couldn't vouch for it sitting in my old man's clay-shooting field.

Virginian
March 14, 2013, 08:13 PM
Go ahead and buy a cheap O/U so you can say you have an O/U.

AnthonyRSS
March 15, 2013, 11:55 AM
You apparently just want affirmation that the cheap O/Us are as good as the "expensive" O/Us.

But like they were saying, it ain't gonna happen. 1000rds isn't much in a target gun. The more serious guys at the range go through about 4 flats in a month. Thats 12,000 rounds a year. That's a lot for a field gun or most cheap shotguns but its not a whole lot for a B gun and definately not a lot for a K or P gun.

I owned a Stoeger Condor for a while. Not a good purchase. I didn't shoot it enough to wear it out but it wasn't a nice gun. I think an 870 barrel taped to a 2x4 would swing better.

There was a similar thread in the revolver section a few days ago about someone wanting everyone to say the Heritage Rough Riders are 'good' guns. He didn't like it when the facts were presented that didn't agree with his pre formed opinion.

The takeaway: Good guns last forever. Bad guns don't last at all. Why skimp on something that could be useful to you for the rest of your life and your kid's kid's lives? I'm still shooting guns that my grandfather competed with many years ago.

kbbailey
March 15, 2013, 03:05 PM
I like my Silver Reserve 28ga. I hunt quail, shoot clays, etc. Its a fun little gun. The Mrs likes it too. However,... I had to replace the firing pins. It was an easy fix. I had shot maybe 3k before they broke.

JoeMal
March 15, 2013, 03:08 PM
I really like my Winchester 101s. Mine is a 12 and my wife has a 20. They get a lot of negative feedback for kicking too hard....but I just don't see it. They shoot great for the both of us.

rugerdude
March 15, 2013, 04:16 PM
Thanks for relaying your experiences! Recoil shouldn't be a problem. I currently shoot a 6.5lb inertia gun and it doesn't bother me one bit.

I've heard good things generally about the 101's, hopefully I can find one locally and handle it a bit.

JoeMal
March 15, 2013, 04:49 PM
FWIW I have 2 of the older models...both were made in the 60s I believe. I haven't had the chance to fondle/shoot the new ones. I know CDNN sells them and someday I will likely buy one.

d2wing
March 16, 2013, 12:25 AM
I looked at a beat up Weatherby Orion made in Japan today for $650. An opinions. Seem worn but tight. It fits me really well.

PabloJ
March 16, 2013, 03:51 AM
Now STOP! I can see the words "Just buy a used Browning, Beretta or SKB" already forming in your head!" I know they're very nice and can shoot 400,000 rounds a year for centuries before you need to replace a hammer spring. This simply is not what I intend to use it for.

I'm just wanting an O/U (in 12ga with 28-30" barrels) to round out my shotgun collection more or less, and also to have a spare gun in case I go shoot clays with a buddy. I like my $1150 semi-auto for "serious" shooting. I'm currently going to school on the G.I. Bill, which is great but it doesn't really allow me to save money. I have saved up what I have saved up. Waiting isn't going to allow me to spend more.

That said, I did shoot with a guy the other day who had a Mossberg silver reserve II sporting (and yes, I can see you wincing too). Anyway, I had no idea it was a Mossberg initially and I was pretty impressed with it. It was kinda beefy which I liked and breaking it open was smooth without being loose (and I know that time will tell how long that lasts for). It was definitely not what I was expecting considering what I've read on them. Have times recently changed for Mossbergs? I understand they had, but resolved, a firing pin issue. It was seriously like a Pepsi challenge moment for me when the guy said "Mossberg," granted I'm not extremely experienced with O/U's, but I have shot some quality ones like Kreighoff before.

I should also note that I absolutely hate Stoegers, or any gun where the hammer resets off of the recoil. My father has a Condor, and the safety also liked to switch on after the first shot. No bueno.

From my adventures into internet past, I have seemed to learn that Yildiz shotguns are not universally hated and can sometimes be quite nice-looking. This is at the top of my list unless someone brings something new to light. As I stated before, I actually do kinda dig the Silver Reserve II sporting, are there any recent, known issues related by actual owners? It seems that a lot of people just say "they're crap" and move on, having never owned one. Now, this doesn't mean they can't be right, but I just want to know what breaks (and when if possible).

Also in the running are CZ's just because I like CZ and they meet the price point. I'm not comfortable with ordering a gun online, I want to be able to see the thing in person and make sure it fits me reasonably well beforehand.
Also, I noticed Academy now sells a Webley&Scott (I know, not the "real" kind) for a grand-ish. How are these? From my research they seem to be the top of the line of the Turkish imports...granted we're still talking Turkish import.
One of the finest inexpensive 'Upland Specials' that can be used for occasional clays were the 'Essentials' and 'Whitewings' by PB. Used one in top shape can be had for $900+/-100.

cota
March 16, 2013, 05:44 AM
I looked at a beat up Weatherby Orion made in Japan today for $650. An opinions. Seem worn but tight. It fits me really well.
This gun is basically an SKB 500 model, SKBs are a big producer of guns for rebadgeing or final finishing by other gun companies, weatherby and ithaca are two that i know about in America along with BSA in England and varney and carron in france all these marketed skb bassed products at one time or another.
SKBs are a well made gun and at that it sounds an acceptable price.

cota
March 16, 2013, 05:57 AM
Thanks for relaying your experiences! Recoil shouldn't be a problem. I currently shoot a 6.5lb inertia gun and it doesn't bother me one bit.

I've heard good things generally about the 101's, hopefully I can find one locally and handle it a bit.
If you decide on a 101 look carefully at the forearm wood for cracks at the rear of the latch frame, its a common fault and i have had lots of 101s mostly waterfowl models. They can be temperamental on the ejectors too. If you are buying a early one it will be fixed choke or have the old win choke system so be aware of this if you are wanting to shoot any steel at anytime the win chokes are not ideal in my experience.

twice barrel
March 16, 2013, 11:13 AM
Working around skeet ranges in the 1970's I pretty well saw all the o/u's available in the day. The Browning Superposed and Citori's both held up as did the Winchester japanese 101's and Xpert 96's. The Charles Daly's were nice and popular but possessed enertia cocking of the second shot (as did the Brownings) and a miss-fire on the first barrel would not cock the second. You had to solidly thump the butt of the gun to cock the second barrel. I went with the 101's once I saved up enough to get one. Shot thousand's of rounds without a hitch.

I can say that most doubles of the day had a more rounded firing pin and shorter hammers which sometimes failed to pop a hard primer. The same shell would fire in an 870 or 1100 due to the smaller, sharper firing pin coupled to a more solid hammer strike. Its just a design issue with the guns and some folks avoided double guns because of it.

I also decided I preferred single, selective triggers, cock both barrels upon opening, and strong ejectors. The 101 fit the bill. Steel shot was not a problem but you did have to live with fixed choked guns until Jess Briley started the quality choke tube thing. I personally prefer fixed chokes when you can get the ones you want.

Regards,

TB

prestpat
March 16, 2013, 04:05 PM
I'd venture to say the 101 is your best bet for what you describe. I've got a friend who shoots between 2 and 6 rounds of trap a week with his (when the weather permits and he's not out of town). That probably works out to around 100-150 boxes per year and I've never known him to have a problem with it.

If you stumble across a Verona LX 501 (which I believe is made by Rizzini) you might take a look at that too. The local Cabela's had a nice used one earlier this year that I probably would have bought if someone hadn't beat me to it while I was thinking it over. I was quite impressed with the quality for the price point.

oneounceload
March 16, 2013, 04:18 PM
Rugerdude - read this - it will most likely give you some info:

(from)http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=253741

I've got $0-$600 to spend
Look, I hear you. You want an Over/Under because that's what everybody has. Your options at this price point are limited. Understand what you are getting into and that you're not going to be the next Anthony Matarese with a CZ. There are some guns in this range that have better reputations (like the CZ and other Huglu branded guns). There are others with not-so-great reputations. Understand at this level that there is a greater likelihood that you're going to have problems. For somebody that shoots about 1000 rounds a year or less, you will probably get along OK with a CZ, Mossberg Silver Reserve, or a Yildiz (if you live in the Southeast near an Academy Sports).

For target shooting, I think there are much better options in this price range than an Over/Under. The Mossberg 930 series Semiautomatic is a great choice if you have to have something new. Another great new choice is the Beretta 390 that some big-box stores are selling right around $550. If you are confident in your gun-buying ability or you're just feeling lucky, a used Remington 1100, Browning Gold, Winchester SX2/3, or a Beretta 390/391 are all good choices for target guns.


I've got $600 - $800 to spend
We're into the range where careful shoppers can come out with a nice gun. If you are looking for something new, your first stop is CDNN Investments (http://www.cdnninvestments.com, download the latest catalog). CDNN is retailing a bunch of Lanber 2087 and 2097 shotguns in this range. Lanber guns are reliable and to me handle like a Browning. You can get them in nice target configurations with 30" barrels.

Another new option is the Savage Milano. While these guns are not in production anymore, they have been selling in the $800 range from places like Bass Pro. I don't expect these guns to be for sale much longer. I feel that the Savage Milano (A F.A.I.R. gun) feel most like a Beretta.

On the used gun market, you have more options. Typically in this range you will find older Browning/Beretta/SKB guns with either fixed chokes or short (26") barrels. At one time 26" barrels were all the rage in skeet, so it's not that they're bad, they're just not as desirable today as longer barrels.


I've got $800 - $1200 to spend
This is the sweet spot for bargain hunters. Most of your bargains in this range are going to come from people selling nicely equipped entry-level upper grade guns. Here you're going to start to see things like older Browning Citoris with 28" and 30" barrels. You will also start to see Beretta 68x with Mobilchoke barrels in this range. Another good gun in this range is a Franchi.

Every now and then something will show up in this range that the discriminating buyer will recognize as a deal. Nicely equipped guns like an LL Bean (by SigArms/B.Rizinni) or Weatherby guns (by SKB) will start showing up in this range. Most guns in this range are going to be 28" or 30" barrels.

If you are looking for new, you want to navigate over to CDNN. They have been closing out some Winchesters and Weatherby guns under $1000 with decent barrel lengths. Again, these guns are not current production, but what do you care?


I've got $1200 - $2000 to spend
This is the sweet spot for the target shooter that wants to start getting serious about his equipment but doesn't want to spend an arm and a leg to do it. Toward the bottom of this range ($1200 - $1500) you will be looking at former kings of competition; Browning 425/Ultra/GTi, Beretta 686/687/or a well used 682, and Modern SKBs. In the upper end of this range, you will find the more desirable barrel lengths and better wood.

Most guns in this range are going to be current production guns, but used.

Be educated in this range on what your options are. Some of the F.A.I.R. guns or the B.Riz guns that fall into this range are hidden gems.

If you are patient, you may even find a used Caesar Guerini in this range.

Most guns in this range are going to be 30" or 32" barrels.

Be patient, you will find what you are looking for on the used market. It helps to understand what the gun you are looking for sells for new.

Also, if you are looking for new guns, you should take a look at CDNN Investments again. They run specials on nicely equipped target guns that are closeouts from some of the bigger manufacturers. Recently they have had some very nice Browning Cynergys and 525s in the $1400- $1800 range. In fact, CDNN has some nice JP Saur Sohn branded Caesar Guerinis selling at $1800 or below.


I've got $2000 - $5000 to spend
You're getting serious about your shotgunning now. Here you will be looking at new guns with all the bells and whistles you are looking for. The big names in this range are Browning, Beretta, and Caesar Guerini.

A hidden gem in this range is the Zoli guns from Antonio Zoli.

Feel and fit is important in this range, because you're going to have this gun for a long time. If you are oddly shaped like me, a fitted gun may be in your future and you'll be able to find one in this range.


I've got over $5000 to spend
Dude, why are you asking me? If you're spending this kind of jack, you already know what you want. If you don't know what you want, stick with an off-the-rack gun until you know what you want.

rugerdude
March 17, 2013, 06:25 PM
Thanks to everyone who gave input that addressed my questions!

I went to just about every place that sells shotguns here in Tulsa today including a gunshow. I had just about given up on finding a gun with the features I wanted at a price I could pay until I happened to remember a Dick's sporting goods just outside of town.

They had Franchi Diamond Elites on clearance for 749, and Browning Citori Silver Hunters for 1199. I liked them both but unfortunately the Browning was just out of reach for me, so I went with the Franchi. I had the pick of two and got the one with better-matched wood and a tighter action. I like Franchi shotguns and my semi-auto that I shoot more heavily is a Franchi so I had no qualms about buying another Franchi shotgun.

Once I get some rounds through her I'll do a write up so that any concerned future buyers can have some information. This one is pretty tight right now, my first priority is to get some gun grease and lube up the internals.

Any other tips for a brand new O/U?

JoeMal
March 17, 2013, 07:43 PM
Any other tips for a brand new O/U?
Shoot the snot out of it! Congrats on the new gun


Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

oneounceload
March 17, 2013, 08:01 PM
Degrease it inside and out, then relube/grease per the owner's manual. On O/U hinge pin areas, I prefer a grease like Shooter's Choice (red) or RIG. For lubing extractor/ejectors, I use a light oil. After removing the choke tubes and degreasing them and the barrel threads, use a grease on the threads to keep them from getting stuck while keeping the tubes snug. When you clean after shooting, remove the tubes from the threads and clean the threads inside the barrel and on the tubes - brake cleaner works great for this, then regrease and install

NEVER shoot a gun that has changeable choke tubes without tubes installed or you risk ruining the barrel threads

Now go have some fun

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