So, about this new NY ammo law...


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jamesbeat
March 15, 2013, 12:55 PM
I understand that I will soon have to pass a background check in order to buy ammo.
Sometimes NICS checks are delayed by a few days before being approved.
Although this has never happened to me, apparently NICS checks are often put on delay for permanent residents.
Does this mean that I theoretically stand the chance of having to wait three days to pick up, say, a box of 50 .22lr?

Also, I have read that large volume sales may trigger an alert with the police?
What about cumulative purchases?
Will they be keeping a tally of how much ammo people purchase?
What action will the police take if the system alerts them of a large ammo purchase?
Will there be any differentiation between calibers?
500 rounds of .22 is a lot different to 500 rounds of a fullbore centerfire rifle round.

Will we soon see maximum ammo allowances?

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BBQJOE
March 15, 2013, 12:58 PM
How does the new law address stepping over state lines to purchase ammo?
or does it?:neener:

Doc7
March 15, 2013, 01:01 PM
This will get really ugly, NJ is trying to do the same thing. I am currently on day 3 of waiting for a shotgun I already paid for to be handed over pending the return of my NICS check. If this happens with ammo I can't imagine how flooded the system will be with check requests. And do we have to pay $15 for a check every time??

jamesbeat
March 15, 2013, 01:06 PM
How does the new law address stepping over state lines to purchase ammo?
or does it?:neener:
I don't think it does.
It may be possible that there will be a law against bringing ammo into the state, but I haven't seen anything about it.

These laws aren't really designed to actually do anything except harass gun owners though.
If your only alternative to jumping through the hoops is to travel out of state, that's still very inconvenient, so either way they meet their goal of harassment.

jamesbeat
March 15, 2013, 01:08 PM
This will get really ugly, NJ is trying to do the same thing. I am currently on day 3 of waiting for a shotgun I already paid for to be handed over pending the return of my NICS check. If this happens with ammo I can't imagine how flooded the system will be with check requests. And do we have to pay $15 for a check every time??
Excellent point, I'll add that to the list of questions:

Will there be a charge for the check?

It will probably be up to the gun store owners whether or not to charge, and it will only take one of them doing it for free to force all of them to do the same, so hopefully they will do the right thing...

sota
March 15, 2013, 01:14 PM
at some point it really will just be simpler to become a criminal.

stumpers
March 15, 2013, 01:26 PM
Was NY not forward looking enough to at least do something like a FOID card?

jamesbeat
March 15, 2013, 01:30 PM
Well I guess that our NY lawmakers simply consider gun owners to be criminals who don't break the law.
What do we therefore need?
More laws!

PabloJ
March 15, 2013, 01:40 PM
There are ammo shortages everywhere so please stop posting stuff like this. There is no NYS just NYC and Suffolk Co. That state is lost cause.

jamesbeat
March 15, 2013, 01:50 PM
Was NY not forward looking enough to at least do something like a FOID card?
Um, no thanks!
There is no registration here for (non 'assault weapon') long guns.
I'm glad that it has stayed that way, at least for now...

jamesbeat
March 15, 2013, 01:58 PM
There are ammo shortages everywhere so please stop posting stuff like this. There is no NYS just NYC and Suffolk Co. That state is lost cause.
I'm not sure I follow.
Are you saying that members from NY shouldn't try to keep abreast of the new laws affecting us?

Mr. D
March 15, 2013, 02:45 PM
I really respect and even appreciate THR's policy against encouragement of illegal conduct. If this type of thing keeps happening and becomes more widespread, though, that policy will be MIGHTY hard to abide by at times...

Of course, if the madness goes far enough, anything on-topic for discussion at THR will be discussion of illegal conduct.

~D

mgkdrgn
March 15, 2013, 05:17 PM
I seriously doubt it will be a NICS check, so it will be some Rube Goldburg thing the individual states put together, with no to minimal funding, of course.

Hunterdad
March 15, 2013, 06:26 PM
There are ammo shortages everywhere so please stop posting stuff like this. There is no NYS just NYC and Suffolk Co. That state is lost cause.


Thanks for the support Pablo! I'm goin to take the highroad and not say what I really want too. I'm glad you got to show your true colors.

Ehtereon11B
March 15, 2013, 08:55 PM
at some point it really will just be simpler to become a criminal.


This. I contemplated moving back to my "home state" of NY before SAFE was passed. I decided not to considering crossing the border would instantly make me a felon. Gun control laws only prevent law abiding gun owners anyway.

ThorinNNY
March 15, 2013, 09:16 PM
80% of the 62 county legislatures in New York State have now passed resolutions OPPOSING the NY SAFE Act. A lot of dedicated people in NYS are working hard at all levels to defeat that law.
There have been Pro Second Amendment Rallies going on all over the state. since February. As a matter of fact, there a people working right now on a Rally in Gouverneur, St. Lawrence County that will be held on April 13.That involves contacting media in three counties, arranging for guest speakers, people to man tables where folks can become members of SCOPE, The NRA, The New York State Rifle and Pistol association AND even get voter registation forms. Writing off the entire State of New York is premature and disrespectful to good people striving to preserve our Second Amendment rights.
Maybe the gentleman who was so dismissive of New York would like come up to the rally in Gouverneur and teach us how to preserve our rights.

splattergun
March 15, 2013, 09:21 PM
Was NY not forward looking enough to at least do something like a FOID card?
New York hasn't been forward thinking for a very, very long time.

jamesbeat
March 15, 2013, 09:55 PM
How is a FOID-type system forward thinking?
I for one do not want to have to have a license to own a gun, too much like the country I left (UK).
It's bad enough trying to get a pistol license here, let alone a license to own any type of gun.

ThorinNNY, that's very encouraging, thanks for that.
I had no idea that there was so much opposition!
Let's hope we win this one...

ThorinNNY
March 15, 2013, 11:12 PM
Jamesbeat

There is VERY strong opposition to the NY SAFE act in upstate New York. Will we succeed in overturning it? I don`t have the ability to predict the future, but I`m going to fight like hell to repeal it. And I`m not alone in this fight.
You might want to look into contacting the New york State Rifle and Pistol Association at http:/www.nysrpa.org and /or SCOPE Shooters Committee On Political Education.
Kevin Wells,Saint Lawrence County Sheriff is going to be one of our guest speakers at the April 13 rally.

InkEd
March 15, 2013, 11:41 PM
Unfortunatley, it is pretty proven that NYC sets the pace for political results in NYS. Best of luck though. I know it's not really "THR" but non-compliance with state law is about the only way to uphold your Constitutional Rights.

It kind of goes back to the old Ethics Class 101 question... When is it okay to break an unjust law?

jamesbeat
March 15, 2013, 11:48 PM
Jamesbeat

There is VERY strong opposition to the NY SAFE act in upstate New York. Will we succeed in overturning it? I don`t have the ability to predict the future, but I`m going to fight like hell to repeal it. And I`m not alone in this fight.
You might want to look into contacting the New york State Rifle and Pistol Association at http:/www.nysrpa.org and /or SCOPE Shooters Committee On Political Education.
Kevin Wells,Saint Lawrence County Sheriff is going to be one of our guest speakers at the April 13 rally.
Good stuff. I'll do some research and see what I can do to help.
May inly be letter writing, but better than nothing.

788Ham
March 15, 2013, 11:54 PM
A tad off thread here..... The big LGS aren't wanting to do NICS gun checks for prospective buyers now either, with the state mandating background checks for everyone. The LGS are stating, "If they think getting a BGC done for $10, they better think again, we won't do it for $10, it'll cost them closer to $50 for our time." Who knows where this will end !

Nickel Plated
March 16, 2013, 12:08 AM
Seems like the NY legislature is now trying to remove all or most of the funding from the SAFE act in the next budget. So I have a hard time seeing how these checks will even be implemented. Not that it really matters. Buy guns out-of-state, buy ammo out-of-state, shoot out-of-state (NY doesn't seem to have many good shooting ranges anyway). Problems solved. Laws don't apply.

I know that discussing illegal acts here is frowned upon but at this point you might as well just call it activism. Civil disobedience.

jamesbeat
March 16, 2013, 12:40 AM
I'm not sure that what you're discussing is illegal, depends what the laws concerning bringing ammo in from another state are.
I don't like the sound of that $50 thing.
If gun stores started charging that much for the background check, it wouldn't make the lawmakers reconsider, it would make them rub their hands in glee. They don't want us to buy ammo.
I think that a lot of stores will just either stop selling ammo, or try to get away with charging a ridiculous fee for the check.
Then, when nobody can afford to get ammo for their guns, the stores will go out of business.

Guns stores are something I'm concerned about at the moment, especially with the threat of UBC's looming.
If we get UBC's or have to have a BC for ammo, the gun stores get something new to charge us for.
Obviously, any gun store owner with a brain will realize that it would be the beginning of the end, but short sighted FFL's will be delighted at the opportunity to get more money.
We need the support of FFL's to win this, but they stand to make more money (in the short term) from these laws.

Monson
March 16, 2013, 01:42 AM
The easiest way to beat this problem I can think of is just to move to Texas!

smalls
March 16, 2013, 05:03 AM
Hold on- you don't need an FFL to sell ammo. How is the local Wally World, or wherever supposed to run an NCIC check if it doesn't hold an FFL? What about people who order online?

mgkdrgn
March 16, 2013, 04:53 PM
Hold on- you don't need an FFL to sell ammo. How is the local Wally World, or wherever supposed to run an NCIC check if it doesn't hold an FFL? What about people who order online?
!) NICS checks are for firearm purchases, not for ammo sales. NYS will have to come up with it's own system to allow non-FFL's to use the system.

2) on-line sales. Outlaw them ... just as they do in NYC

ThorinNNY
March 17, 2013, 12:38 PM
Jamesbeat
There`s an article you might want to see. Go to www.ogd.com ,look at the Sunday March 17, 2013 edition. Don`t see why it couldn`t be done in your area, unless the First Amendment no longer applies. Good luck.

Trent
March 17, 2013, 12:57 PM
Having to "ask permission" to purchase ammunition for self-defense or hunting or plinking or whatever-the-hell-you-feel-like-buying-ammo-for.... is wrong.

Absolutely, positively, irrevocably wrong.

Let me add to the scenarios / questions:

Assume you have ammunition in your car. You drive out of state to visit relatives, and on the way back get pulled over just inside the border. Cops find ammo in the trunk. Assume you just bought it out of state and arrest you. No affirmative defense.

Assume you have ammunition in your car. You get pulled over. Cops find ammo in the trunk. You don't have proof that you purchased it in state because you bought it before the ban. Cops assume you bought it illegally, and arrest you. No affirmative defense.

Sorry... this is just too screwed up.

As much as I dislike the Federal Government, this is one instance where they SHOULD have already stepped in and said "No, you can NOT do that."

hovercat
March 17, 2013, 01:09 PM
A bit off topic, but how does the 'no affirmative defense' work? Am I reading correctly that the legislature recognizes the law is flawed. So they say that just posessing something proves that you broke the law, even though you may have obtained it legally, it is too much bother to prove that you obtained it illegally. So you are no longer innocent until proven guilty, because it is too hard to prove that in court?:what:

steelerdude99
March 17, 2013, 01:31 PM
...
Assume you have ammunition in your car. You drive out of state to visit relatives, and on the way back get pulled over just inside the border. Cops find ammo in the trunk. Assume you just bought it out of state and arrest you. No affirmative defense.


Never consent to a search and don't put your ammo box(s) on the passenger seat or anywhere else in plain view.

chuck

Old Fuff
March 17, 2013, 01:58 PM
As has been pointed out, only Federally Licensed Dealers (or distributors and manufacturers/importers) can request a NICS check, and then only when transfering a firearm to an unlicensed person (think "retail buyer") or business. Before requesting the check a 4473 form must be filled out, and that form makes no provision for ammunition.

The fact is that New York's liberal legislators (not to mention the governor) do not understand that they cannot dictate what federally licensed dealers (etc.) can do or not do relative to the federal NICS system. If they want a background check made on ammunition buyers they will have to set up they're own process and fund it.

ThorinNNY
March 17, 2013, 04:29 PM
Well Cuomo wants to spend about $ 36 million bucks just to set up a system so NYS can do those checks on ammo buyers. He`ll rob Peter to pay Paul to do it by juggling the books.
It`s a criminal offense if businessmen pull off a Ponzi scheme, but if Cuomo does it the press will call it "good government"!

Politicians- you can`t live with `em and you can`t (legally,that is) feed `em to hungry sharks, either.:(

Trent
March 17, 2013, 08:49 PM
A bit off topic, but how does the 'no affirmative defense' work? Am I reading correctly that the legislature recognizes the law is flawed. So they say that just posessing something proves that you broke the law, even though you may have obtained it legally, it is too much bother to prove that you obtained it illegally. So you are no longer innocent until proven guilty, because it is too hard to prove that in court?:what:

Yup, they have NY'ers in a catch-22 in certain circumstances. If you can't prove that you already owned that ammo you brought in to the state... or loan someone ammo at a shooting range (say your friend brings ammo that's not working, you loan them a box or two - heck I've done that MANY times... but.. bang... you just committed a crime.)

There's been a lot of discussion about this in Illinois legislature recently - they're trying to push what you have (and then some), and "affirmative defense" keeps popping up over and over again in the debates. One of the amendments to a gun control bill that just passed in the Illinois House will make it illegal for us to keep firearms at home in a ready state. If that bill passes we will have to keep them unloaded, locked, or in a safe; inaccessible.

It doesn't matter that the Supreme Court of the US has already ruled that's unconstitutional. Illinois legislators will quite merrily trade one unconstitutional law that just got thrown out by the Federal courts for another.

Their idea of "good politics" is to do this sort of thing, so we'll have to suffer for 3-5 years each iteration as the new laws are fought through the court system (at great expense to both taxpayers and plaintiffs), just to get them thrown out all over again, so we have to start all over.... rinse & repeat.

New York will do the same thing, bet your bottom dollar. The MOMENT one bad law is overturned by the Federal court (if any are; they haven't been so far in your Federal court district), they'll just hold a midnight session and pass a different flavor of the same bad medicine, and the process will have to start all over again.

ThorinNNY
March 18, 2013, 08:36 PM
Perhaps this will lead to Prohibition Era style er,well bootlegging isn`t quite right - hmm, how about ammo-legging ? as in ".. on a moonless night a black rubber raft was remotely guided to a remote spot on Long Island`s South Shore where" surf fisherman" immediately loaded it`s clandestine cargo into beach buggies and drove off into the night to undisclosed locations where....." :neener:

acorn1754
March 19, 2013, 12:12 AM
The other part of the new NY law that I haven't seen mentioned yet, is the limitation to 500 rounds per 30 days. How NY is going to have a database, tracking how much ammo one buys in any 30 day given period is beyond me. I can see someone buying 50 rounds and the person recording on the other side entering 500 and then they're locked out of ammunition for a month. And what if the database crashes, will no one be able/allowed to buy ammo until it's brought back online and they can track how much individuals are buying? At least it appears reloading was left out...

And to think I once grew up/lived in NY...

shotgunjoel
March 19, 2013, 12:27 AM
It may be possible that there will be a law against bringing ammo into the state, but I haven't seen anything about it.
The federal govt. has power over interstate commerce, not the states. That was one of the main reasons the Constitution was passed, the states were putting tariffs on goods from other states.

llwsgn
March 19, 2013, 06:58 AM
Having "ask permission" to purchase ammunition for self-defense or hunting or plinking or whatever-the-hell-you-feel-like-buying-ammo-for.... is wrong.

Absolutely, positively, irrevocably wrong.."
That's been the consistent bottom line with all attempts to diminish the rights of the citizens of this nation to arm themselves. It is simply wrong. . The first point in time that i personally became cognizant that things like that were occuring was in the early 70's while walking to high school. I noticed a bumper sticker, "when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns". I realized at that instant two things, criminals would continue to arm themselves regardless of the law, and men and women who insisted upon living by the basic bill of rights freedom would become criminalized should those rights ever be fully and entirely overcome. Since that time i've observed the relentless struggle to wrongly diminish those rights. I've never seen a time as now that the words on that bumper sticker seemed more prophetic. We must struggle on against this wrong. These compromises that we've been living under to remain law abiding will eventually become an inescapable trap that will prevent us from being free. That is wrong.

PabloJ
March 19, 2013, 07:49 AM
How does the new law address stepping over state lines to purchase ammo?
or does it?:neener:
How about neighboring MA with their policy no state ID no ammo? That was twenty years ago and I can't imagine things have improved by now.:rolleyes:

Mr. D
March 19, 2013, 09:09 AM
It may be possible that there will be a law against bringing ammo into the state, but I haven't seen anything about it.
The federal govt. has power over interstate commerce, not the states. That was one of the main reasons the Constitution was passed, the states were putting tariffs on goods from other states.

And, as has been mentioned before, just because it is illegal that doesn't keep states from doing it. NY is already in gross violation of the Constitution - what does one more violation mean to them? Besides, the Interstate Commerce clause has been ineffective in the past - PA currently has a law against buying liquor out of state and having it shipped into the state. Recently, they have slightly modified that policy, but, practically speaking, it still hasn't changed a whole lot. It is still illegal for me to order that nice bottle of single malt from an online retailer and have it shipped directly to me - I have to go through the state liquor store system which charges me extra tax and fees for the privilege. :barf:

~D

Speedo66
March 19, 2013, 11:40 AM
I read the 39 page bill that was handed to legislators supposedly 3 minutes before the vote (though after they were told by the 3 men in a room that they had to vote it in). It was passed after Cuomo waived a mandatory 3 day waiting period. Cuomo, who swore in his campaign to end the "3 men in a room" form of gov't Albany is infamous for, (the governor and the 2 party leaders), and who swore there would be transparency, shockingly enough, lied to the people of the State of NY.

The bill says that the state shall set up it's own system of doing ammo ID checks, you won't go through the Feds. You will have to for person to person sales, and as mentioned, in the bill the state sets a max fee of $10 for the check. Never saw a dealer want less than $25-75 to transfer a gun.

I do not remember anything in the bill that outlawed ammo purchases out of state.

A humorous aspect was limiting existing magazines to 10 round capacity (but you can only legally load 7), and failure to exempt police and peace officers. Such was their mad rush to get this bill written in the dead of night that every LEO with a mag capacity of over 10 rounds is now a criminal.

Even under the last law, other than pre-ban mags (which are now illegal) just the naked possession of a magazine capable of holding over 10 rounds was a crime in itself, no gun needed.

Cuomo was in such haste to ram this through, it's so obvious that he wanted to be first to make his mark in the national arena to aid his next desire, to be president. As with most politicians, what his constituents actually want is not important, what is is getting reelected.

JohnsXDM
March 20, 2013, 02:10 AM
The other part of the new NY law that I haven't seen mentioned yet, is the limitation to 500 rounds per 30 days. How NY is going to have a database, tracking how much ammo one buys in any 30 day given period is beyond me. I can see someone buying 50 rounds and the person recording on the other side entering 500 and then they're locked out of ammunition for a month. And what if the database crashes, will no one be able/allowed to buy ammo until it's brought back online and they can track how much individuals are buying? At least it appears reloading was left out...

And to think I once grew up/lived in NY...
500 rounds in 30 days????? Everytime I go to the range it's at least 250 rounds.

pseudonymity
March 20, 2013, 07:11 PM
The other part of the new NY law that I haven't seen mentioned yet, is the limitation to 500 rounds per 30 days.

Do you have a link to where any limitations are setup in the new laws? I could not find one in S2230, just the in-state background checks.

The law does not cover the possession of ammunition bought out of state, and it does not create a penalty for a person that *buys* ammo without a check. The penalties are all on the seller side.

As wrong as this check is, this is the least worrying part of these new laws. They do not take effect for a year, and since there is no law that enables the NYSP to charge you to become a registered seller, I think pretty much anybody may be able to become a "seller of ammunition". There are no requirements for being a seller, so unless the NYSP can prove that a prospective seller is not allowed to actually possess ammo, I am not sure that they could deny your registration.

heyjoe
March 20, 2013, 08:56 PM
there is nothing in the NY SAFE act which limits ammunition purchases to 500 rounds a month or that makes it illegal to bring ammo in from another state.

acorn1754
March 20, 2013, 10:21 PM
Do you have a link to where any limitations are setup in the new laws? I could not find one in S2230, just the in-state background checks.

The law does not cover the possession of ammunition bought out of state, and it does not create a penalty for a person that *buys* ammo without a check. The penalties are all on the seller side.

As wrong as this check is, this is the least worrying part of these new laws. They do not take effect for a year, and since there is no law that enables the NYSP to charge you to become a registered seller, I think pretty much anybody may be able to become a "seller of ammunition". There are no requirements for being a seller, so unless the NYSP can prove that a prospective seller is not allowed to actually possess ammo, I am not sure that they could deny your registration.
I stand corrected, I honestly thought I remembered reading that they passed this, but maybe it was an amendment that never made it to the law.

Now I did read in the new law, "To track high-volume ammunition purchasers, the legislation will make New York the first state in the nation to track ammo purchases in real time. All dealers in ammunition must be registered with the State Police, and each sale will require both a state background check and transmission of a record of the sale to State Police, so as to enable alerts of high volume purchases. Ammunition records will be purged within a year of submission. Dealers must report any loss of inventory. The legislation will also include a ban on direct internet sales of ammunition. Ammunition ordered over the internet must be delivered in a face-to-face transaction with a firearms dealer and the purchaser will be subject to the state background check."

What will be considered a high volume purchase and do citizens have to worry about getting a visit from the police just because they bought a bulk pack of ammo? Is there anything that tracks reloading and is that the only legal way to get ammo without having to be subjected to a background check once implemented? And are ammo buyers going to be subjected to paying a background check fee each purchase?

Speedo66
March 21, 2013, 08:46 AM
I saw nothing in the bill that mentioned handloading or components. They do not fit the definition of ammunition.

In related news, the NY Times just quoted Cuomo as saying the new 7 round capacity magazine law is unworkable. Since there are no 7 round mags for many guns, he intends to change the law back to 10 round capacity, but you can still only load 7 rounds unless you are in a competition, or at a range.

A National Shooting Sports Foundation official said it would have been a de facto ban on handguns.

Here's the article: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/21/nyregion/cuomo-seeks-to-ease-a-newly-passed-gun-restriction.html?hpw&_r=0

Wouldn't it be nice if they did their research BEFORE they passed a law?

pseudonymity
March 21, 2013, 05:38 PM
each sale will require both a state background check and transmission of a record of the sale to State Police, so as to enable alerts of high volume purchases.

Since every ammo purchase is transmitted in real-time, the high volume bit is just window dressing. Nowhere does the law authorize the NYSP to block a sale of any quantity of ammo (not that they might not try just that).

Ammunition ordered over the internet must be delivered in a face-to-face transaction with a firearms dealer

Not exactly true - FFLs have to register with the NYSP to sell ammo, but a non-FFL can register with the NYSP also.

What will be considered a high volume purchase and do citizens have to worry about getting a visit from the police just because they bought a bulk pack of ammo? Is there anything that tracks reloading and is that the only legal way to get ammo without having to be subjected to a background check once implemented? And are ammo buyers going to be subjected to paying a background check fee each purchase?

Ah, now those are good questions. Of course in NY, you always have to worry about any encounter with NYSP in particular - local police and sheriffs not so much IMO.

The question about what is defined as ammo and are reloading components considered ammo is a good question. Ammo is not defined in NY law, but it is in federal law and sadly it includes components, even unprimed brass. Yes, it is likely you will no longer be able to sell fired range brass in NY next year without a background check.

The question about a fee is another good one - the law does not say that you can or cannot charge a fee, so my best guess is that the cost of the check will be built into the ammo price.

pseudonymity
March 21, 2013, 05:46 PM
I saw nothing in the bill that mentioned handloading or components. They do not fit the definition of ammunition.

In related news, the NY Times just quoted Cuomo as saying the new 7 round capacity magazine law is unworkable. Since there are no 7 round mags for many guns, he intends to change the law back to 10 round capacity, but you can still only load 7 rounds unless you are in a competition, or at a range.

A National Shooting Sports Foundation official said it would have been a de facto ban on handguns.

Here's the article: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/21/nyregion/cuomo-seeks-to-ease-a-newly-passed-gun-restriction.html?hpw&_r=0

Wouldn't it be nice if they did their research BEFORE they passed a law?

Since there is no definition of ammunition in NY that I can find, I guess it means whatever the courts decide it does. In federal law, ammunition includes reloading components:
The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.

I think they did do their research, they just underestimated the pushback from the law, and now they realize that the 7 round limit is probably going to be thrown out by the courts so they plan to preempt any injunction. I prefer that the legislature let the 7 round limit stand so the foolishness of the whole set of laws gets more exposure.

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