Would this be considered an NFA item?


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TITAN308
March 15, 2013, 05:51 PM
Take this kit:

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/9733/img9702v.jpg

Then permanently affix this item to the opening:

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Machine-Gun-paintball-16-flat-line-Barrel-Shroud-NEW-/00/$(KGrHqMOKjME1vHc4-iJBNodbg2hlQ~~_12.JPG

Tailor to meet the 16" barrel and 26" overall length measurements.

There seems to be some gray area regarding attachments not technically attached to the barrel itself. I know the ATF uses the rod in the closed breach method to measure, with the shroud affixed to the carbine kit, the rod would have to go down the shroud to access the barrel, there would be no possible way to do it otherwise.

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joeschmoe
March 15, 2013, 06:03 PM
Tailor to meet the 16" barrel and 26" overall length measurements.

There seems to be some gray area regarding attachments not technically attached to the barrel itself.

What grey area? The law says 16" barrel. That gun still has a pistol length barrel. The ATF has ruled that flash hiders/brakes that are permanently attached TO THE BARREL, still count as barrel length. In this example nothing has changed the barrel length.

Don't do. IMO, it's NFA/SBR.

MasterSergeantA
March 15, 2013, 06:05 PM
My opinion (and not necessarily that of the ATF) would be that the barrel shroud would NOT change the short-barreled rifle to a Title I rifle. It is not a part of the barrel itself. In the same way, a long, free-floated handguard on an AR with a 9" barrel inside it is still a SBR, handguard or no. When you pull the pistol out of the HERA unit, the barrel shroud does not come with it. When the ATF drops their measuring rod down the barrel to the face of the bolt/breech, they will also pull out their pocket Streamlights to see where the actual muzzle is measured down deep inside the shroud.

If it WERE a legal Title I firearm, you could pretty much accomplish the same thing with a stock and paper towel cardboard core.

As joe said, "don't do it".

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TITAN308
March 15, 2013, 06:07 PM
Then can you explain this?

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/8017/newcg212933135110431812.jpg

Product Description

BATF Approved No Tax Stamp Required *State and Local Laws Still Apply*

"Glock 17 ONLY"

TITAN308
March 15, 2013, 06:08 PM
And the G1 they had for years...

http://www.galatiinternational.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/CORONICG119.jpg

Just to clarify, the SBR and non-SBR versions cost exactly the same thing, so I seriously doubt they are throwing in a 16" barrel under there to be nice guys.

joeschmoe
March 15, 2013, 06:21 PM
And the G1 they had for years...

Just to clarify, the SBR and non-SBR versions cost exactly the same thing, so I seriously doubt they are throwing in a 16" barrel under there to be nice guys.


"All NFA Rules Apply" http://www.ammoland.com/2010/09/ema-tactical-roni-carbine-conversion-kit/#axzz2NeKxCO6i

TITAN308
March 15, 2013, 06:22 PM
You linked to an SBR version. I don't understand your point.

The images I showed are the ATF approved non-SBR versions.

My point being the non-SBR versions are nothing more than the SBR kits with enlongated moldings to create a "shroud" and extend the length of the kit.

So when the other posters said my idea would still be an SBR, I would like an explanation on how CAA is able to sell them as "ATV Approved non-SBR" with the same concept.

MasterSergeantA
March 15, 2013, 06:23 PM
I am only guessing here, but my guess would be that what is NOT shown in the ad is that there is a requirement to use a 16" barrel in the unit to be legal. The barrel would likely fit just fine down the attached tube. But in the absence of one to measure and inspect, I can only conjecture.

joeschmoe
March 15, 2013, 06:29 PM
Then can you explain this?


"NEW" Civilian Legal RONI model featuring a 16" threaded barrel .
Includes all the great features of the RONI without the NFA (SBR) paper work"

http://store.commandarms.com/products/RONICG2.html

Sam1911
March 15, 2013, 06:30 PM
Obviously they're either using a long barrel under that shroud, or they've got a letter from the Tech Branch that blesses their method of constructing this so they don't have to.

One or the other must be the case.

So if you're curious -- ASK THEM. They'll know better than we will!

(And don't try to extrapolate a theoretical answer for yourself based on what you see in their ad. Even if THEY have a letter blessing their design, that's only good for THEM. If you want to do the same, you'll need your own letter blessing your design.)

Sam1911
March 15, 2013, 06:30 PM
" "NEW" Civilian Legal RONI model featuring a 16" threaded barrel ."
Ah...so it's the former then. Figures.

TITAN308
March 15, 2013, 06:30 PM
Yes I saw the "threaded barrel" - but this makes no sense.

$499.99 for the SBR version and $499.99 for the non-SBR version.

They are tossing in a 16" threaded barrel and a kit with more polymer for the same price?

Sam1911
March 15, 2013, 06:32 PM
Seems so. Title II stuff has a bit of a cachet to it. They could well ask the same price for less raw materials.

But a wise man once said ask THEM. All we can do is guess.

joeschmoe
March 15, 2013, 06:40 PM
16" barrels are actually cheaper in most cases (in anything other than OEM barrels). I assume it's because of volume. I want a pistol length 300 blk, but they are more expensive than the 16". From every maker I've found. Go figure. I believe they take cheaper mass produced 16" barrels and cut them down. Add $50 for machine work and labor to make a 7" pistol barrel from a 16" barrel.

joeschmoe
March 15, 2013, 06:48 PM
Looking over the site it seems the g2-10 and other SBR models are $100 cheaper. Only the civilian model is $499.

http://store.commandarms.com/categories/RONI-%252d-The-Pistol%252dCarbine/

TITAN308
March 15, 2013, 06:52 PM
Sam I am asking. But while waiting for an answer, seems a could enough topic to bring up.

joe, my apologies, the prices I saw were not the OEM website.

But looking carefully, looks like the G2 is the newest generation, different body, some better features and design, I would hazard a guess that the extra $100 is due to it being the "new" version.

Could be wrong, time will tell.

TITAN308
March 15, 2013, 07:01 PM
Does the Sig system work like a Glock where it pulls back and tilts back when fired?

I am having a hell of a time finding a picture of a Glock with a view of the front. If it is like the sig version, with NO ceiling clearance for the tilt there is no way that "barrel" is actually coming out of the Glock itself.

http://www.galatiinternational.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/CORONICG119.jpg

Its like a similar picture of the non-SBR version is the holy grail, my Google Fu is failing me...

http://www.pdmall.com/1/1/4/4/4130.jpg

joeschmoe
March 15, 2013, 07:02 PM
Where did you get the pic in the OP? I never heard of the Roni before this thread either. I just know people have been wanting to put stocks on Glocks for a long time and always run into the same issue. 16" barrel or SBR stamp.

Sure enough when I looked into yours it falls into the same issue as all the others. Until you find some good reason to believe otherwise assume the current status quo has not changed. If you add a stock you must add a 16" barrel. No "grey area". If you do, let us know, but until you do assume the answer is "no".

TITAN308
March 15, 2013, 07:07 PM
Google tells me Sig does use the same browing designed tilting barrel lock operation. Look at that picture of the G1 "civilian non-SBR" version. That "16 inch barrel" supposedly is encapsulated by the kit - it would have zero ability to tilt and locking if that was an actual barrel that goes into the pistol.

Right? Am I missing something just using common sense and how tilting barrels operate?

Added red circle for clarification;

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/4243/coronicg119.jpg

And no rifling in there if my eyes are not shot.

I have my concerns because if someone can find an actual detailed non-company photo, I'm left scratching my head... that very clearly looks like a tube, with no rifling and certainly no room for tilting movement.

TITAN308
March 15, 2013, 07:14 PM
Further more, product description on places like Midway USA:

Command Arms RONI Pistol to Carbine Conversion Kit 16" Threaded Barrel, Integral Collapsible Stock, Tri-Rail Handguard Fits Glock 17 9mm Luger Black

The RONI Pistol to Carbine Conversion makes it easy for the shooter to quickly insert or remove a Glock handgun, and doesn't require disassembly or any type of permanent modification to make the pistol compatible. Installation requires attaching a cocking handle unit to the rear of the Glock's slide, then pivoting open the RONI's hinged frame, inserting the pistol within, and securing the whole assembly together with 2 locking pins. Made in Israel.

Where is the "remove slide and change out barrels" step?

joeschmoe
March 15, 2013, 07:15 PM
It's "coming soon". So we have no way to know if it's just an artist/computer rendering and not a working model. Or maybe it jams after each shot. Who knows? Proportionately it doesn't look like a 16" barrel either, so I'm guessing it will be "coming soon" until they post a real pic or it just disappears like most of the other carbine kits.

Don't hold your breath. If it doesn't have a 16" barrel, it's NFA. There's still no guarantee it will work.

joeschmoe
March 15, 2013, 07:19 PM
Further more, product description on places like Midway USA:



Where is the "remove slide and change out barrels" step?
Where is the link to what you're talking about? This is getting silly. Either it has a 16" barrel or it's NFA. Get it? Post some links to where you're getting this crap. I guarantee it will lead to either an NFA stamp or a 16" barrel.

TITAN308
March 15, 2013, 07:27 PM
Joe that picture is the Gen 1 version, which has been replaced by then Gen 2 "coming soon" version.

Why are you getting bent out of shape over some conversation?

Im still searching for pictures or video that are not from CAA, good grief.

TAKtical
March 15, 2013, 07:29 PM
These have never even been sold in the US yet. They have been labled "coming soon" for over a year. I found out about them when they first came out, tried to pre-order one, and was told they were not taking pre orders. I have filed my paperwork to sbr one of my glock pistols and waited the 7 months and these civilian kits still arent available. Good luck with that. Hera Arms makes a better kit anyway.

TITAN308
March 15, 2013, 07:34 PM
Well that is good to know. And may explain why I can't locate any other pictures other than the stock ones they provide.

I'm scouring through their SHOT videos over the years and so forth.

But what you are saying clarifies why I see a lack of media.

Sounds like I need to just obtain a an extra barrel and have a machine shop simply create a slightly larger funnel to reach 16" and fuse the two together. haha

joeschmoe
March 15, 2013, 07:39 PM
Joe that picture is the Gen 1 version, which has been replaced by then Gen 2 "coming soon" version.

Why are you getting bent out of shape over some conversation?

Im still searching for pictures or video that are not from CAA, good grief.
Because I've answered your question, with links, but you are not answering my questions. That's not a conversation. You refuse to post links to the things you've claimed. You refuse to answer my questions. Instead you dance around to some other pic/claim with no links. "What about this?" How can we answer your question without know what you're talking about?

Where are the links to the MidwayUSA page on this? I'm not searching that entire site for you when you were just there.
Where did you get the OP pic?
Where did you get the "grey area" claim?




To have a stock on a Glock you must have a 16" barrel or it's NFA. There is no "grey area".

TITAN308
March 15, 2013, 07:51 PM
Feel better?

joeschmoe
March 15, 2013, 07:52 PM
Further more, product description on places like Midway USA:

Where is the "remove slide and change out barrels" step?
I see why you won't post a link. Because it says on that page 3 times "16" threaded barrel".

:banghead:


Look it even says it again in the link ----> http://www.midwayusa.com/product/290319/command-arms-roni-pistol-to-carbine-conversion-kit-16-threaded-barrel-integral-collapsible-stock-tri-rail-handguard-fits-glock-17-9mm-luger-black

TITAN308
March 15, 2013, 07:57 PM
That was the reason for the discussion, what available media there is, clearly shows something that is not a barrel associated with the advertisement that says there is a barrel.

But enough digging and one user from another forum said this:

When I talked to CAA at SHOT this year (2013) they said they are close to having a 16 inch version of the RONI so people would not have to file NFA paper work. They told me they were just trying to tweak the barrel and get it just right.

So it is a barrel, but they've decided to allow vendors to advertise using media not accurate to the description.

But hey, your method of investigation sort of worked, just get all pissy until some results come out. Bravo.

Thanks for helping get to the bottom of this with something definitive. :rolleyes:

<deleted>

Sam1911
March 15, 2013, 08:07 PM
Seems we truly have gone all the way to the bottom of this.

[End of Line]

Prince Yamato
March 17, 2013, 02:08 PM
The shroud must be permanently attached to the barrel like on the tac-sol sbx barrels. Otherwise, you still have an sbr.

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