A Carbine. What Caliber?


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Panzercat
March 16, 2013, 10:30 AM
So you're building a carbine to do everything. What caliber is it in? Why?

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C0untZer0
March 16, 2013, 11:51 AM
The Tavor will have a 5.56 / 9mm conversion kit for it.

I think 10mm carbine are impossible to find, it would be easier to get a 44 magnum like one of the old Rugers.

9mm seems to be the most common caliber for a handgun cartridge carbine.

MachIVshooter
March 16, 2013, 12:03 PM
The 10mm will gain the most from extra barrel, and is also far and away the most potent of those listed.

However, if you're just wanting a plinker, 9mm has the obvious cost benefit.

I've had 2 9mm carbines, sold both. Still have my Marlin Camp 45, but don't use it much. PCCs are mostly just kinda useless, IMO. The only one I own that really has utility is the Marlin 1894 .44 mag, which puts down power on par with .30-30 Win from the 16" barrel.

jmr40
March 16, 2013, 12:58 PM
A carbine is a short rifle, I like rifle calibers in shorter barrels much better than pistol calibers in long barrels. Magnum rounds such as 357 and 44 are possible exceptions. Make mine an AR in 223.

Carl N. Brown
March 16, 2013, 01:11 PM
Based on autoloader pistol ammo I have on hand:
.45 ACP (AutoOrdnance 1911A1 clone pistol, TM1 carbine)
.40 S&W (H&K USP)
7x62x25mm (CZ 52)

The use I forsee for a pistol caliber carbine is the scenario of me on the mountain, hanging around after everyone else has gone, to plink out to 65 yards, maybe needing protection from medium size feral or rabid animal. .45 ACP is adequate and economical.

mavracer
March 16, 2013, 01:12 PM
300 Blackout.

Furncliff
March 16, 2013, 01:51 PM
Marlin Camp 9
HiPoint 4595
Marlin 1894 .357

Choice? The Marlin 1894c in 38/357

My Camp 9 has suffered from erratic reliability and is with my gunsmith now. The Hp4595 is totally reliable, but the Marlin in 357 mag gains the most umph in the longer barrel (1900fps with a 158 gr hand load). It's the most accurate and carries the best as well.

bikerbill
March 16, 2013, 02:40 PM
I voted 9mm for two reasons ... I already own one, and I have a solid supply of 9mm to make sure I don't run out ... recoil is mild and I love the reach-out-and-touch-it accuracy out to about 100 yrds ...

firesky101
March 16, 2013, 03:05 PM
9x25 dillon... a man can dream.

Torian
March 16, 2013, 03:07 PM
Have you considered a .30 carbine? It's still one of the best platforms of all time IMO.

Rexster
March 16, 2013, 03:10 PM
None of the above! "Everything" is a broad task; no autoloading pistol cartridge meets that goal. My Browning BLRs, chambered in .308 Winchester, are pretty good carbines for "everything."

Why did you post this in the Handguns-Autoloaders section? A carbine is a type of rifle.

Panzercat
March 16, 2013, 04:09 PM
Why did you post this in the Handguns-Autoloaders section? A carbine is a type of rifle.
Notice they are all autoloading pistol calibers. Hmmmm...

Torian
March 16, 2013, 04:10 PM
Carbine = uses pistol calibers.
Rifle = uses rifle calibers.

Kiln
March 16, 2013, 04:17 PM
Carbine simply means short rifle. It doesn't have to be chambered in a pistol cartridge. This really should be in the rifle section but oh well, I'll put in my two cents anyways.

I'd go with 9mm. It is usually the cheapest and easiest to find (unless there's a panic going on).

It also has a wide variety of loadings available which makes it suitable for lots of uses. The rifle length barrel helps with velocity too so the 9mm is more impressive from a carbine length gun than your average pistol.

dusty14u
March 16, 2013, 04:19 PM
Carbine = uses pistol calibers.
Rifle = uses rifle calibers.
Unfortunately this is incorrect. A carbine is a shortened version of same caliber long arm

A sub machine gun is a pistol caliber while a machine gun is a rifle caliber.

I like my KT Sub2000 in 9mm. With the 16" barrel it is close to. 357mag performance.

jeff-10
March 16, 2013, 04:22 PM
Ruger Mini 14 (Mini 10) type carbine in 10mm that takes Glock 20 magazines would be perfect. Too bad Ruger or anyone else will never make one.

MachIVshooter
March 16, 2013, 04:35 PM
Carbine = uses pistol calibers.
Rifle = uses rifle calibers

Nope. Carbine simply means short rifle. To denote that it is chambered in a pistol cartridge, one says pistol caliber carbine, or PCC in these groups.

Conversely, a long arm chambered in a pistol cartridge isn't necessarily a carbine. But that would be subjective. Of course, it would be rather silly to have a long barreled firearm chambered in a cartridge that maxxes out with considerably less tube. Rimfires seem exempt from this logic, though...

There is no hard and fast rule on barrel length for the definition, but generally in modern terms, < 20" is carbine, > 20" is rifle.

esheato
March 16, 2013, 04:46 PM
I've got ARs...and when I wanted a pistol-caliber carbine, I went with a 9mm. Cheap to shoot, low recoil, and I've got ammo cans (plural) in the garage.

Panzercat
March 16, 2013, 04:58 PM
Carbine has a lot of definition overlap. The rifle forum would have complained for exactly the same reason, but I'm posting here because of the auto loading pistol calibers. If we were talking a carbine in 5.56, then I'd be over there :D

Surprised not many fans of 40sw, tho.

jeff-10
March 16, 2013, 05:14 PM
Surprised not many fans of 40sw, tho.

I think I read somewhere that the 40 S&W is very efficient and does not get much added velocity from a carbine length barrel.

TimboKhan
March 16, 2013, 05:51 PM
You know, I am going to move this to rifles. I see the thought process of putting it here, but it just makes more sense over there. As a side note, carbine does mean short rifle, but the definition of short rifle is subjective. One of my Swedish Mausers was a rifle, the other a carbine. The carbine is longer than most "normal" rifles, and the rifle was really long. Go figure, but relative to the rifle, it was a carbine.

sent from my Galaxy Note II.

USAF_Vet
March 16, 2013, 06:01 PM
Carbine = uses pistol calibers.
Rifle = uses rifle calibers.
I had no idea 7.62x54r, as used in the Mosin Nagant M-44 was a pistol cartridge, or the 5.56x45 in the M-4 carbine I was issued in Iraq was a pistol cartridge.

Crazy.

Previously, I owned a 9mm PCC, but my tastes in the PCC have changed, and I would prefer an 1894c in .38/.357.

Nothing says classy more than a nice revolver and matching caliber lever gun. I need some class.

Panzercat
March 16, 2013, 06:02 PM
Guess that answers that question :D

nelsonal
March 16, 2013, 06:02 PM
I'd prefer .357 mag or .44 mag to those calibers. If I had to choose, 10mm, though I don't see many carbines chambered in that.

Float Pilot
March 16, 2013, 06:07 PM
One of my Swedish Mausers was a rifle, the other a carbine. The carbine is longer than most "normal" rifles, and the rifle was really long.


The Swedish m/94 carbine (6.5x55mm) has a 17 inch barrel. and is around 37 inches in total length. So how is it longer than most rifles??

The m/38 rifle has a 23.5 inch barrel

and the m/96 Rifles have a 29 inch barrel.


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


In some (most) cases a CARBINE is actually just a shortened version of a longer full powered rifle.
For example my 45-70 chambered Browning 1886 saddle ring carbine in short and handy to carry through brush.
And I regularly use it to hunt moose or wounded bears. With fairly warm 45-70 hand-loads.


A short bolt action carbine in a caliber / cartridge that uses it's powder efficiently would be pretty neat.
A 450 socom chambered in a CZ-452 or mini Mauser....
Maybe a short barreled model 7 Remington in 358 Win or 338 Federal.

I cannot see wasting time making a 10mm or 45 ACP carbine which must have a certain minimum legal size, when you could chamber a short AR carbine for 450 socom or 50 Beowulf ( well I guess 6.8mm SPC for that matter) and really have a weapon that gives a thumping to the target.

Pistol caliber sub-guns became practically extinct because they weigh as much as a rifle, while only having the power of a pistol.

Warp
March 16, 2013, 06:08 PM
If I am building a pistol caliber carbine it's in 9x19 because that is my main pistol round and because it is less expensive.

But if I want to pretend it can do everything, it's 10mm or. 357, determined by semi auto or lever preference (and willingness to pay for 10 and or reload)

bigfatdave
March 16, 2013, 06:35 PM
I have one in 9x19 (sub2000, takes Block19 mags)
I want one in .45acp now (mech-tech)

Which is ballisticlly superior in a 16" barrel isn't really interesting, I just like PCCs. Neither would ever see serious use past 50 yards, and probably no real range use past 100.

And .22TCM is the obvious choice for a PCC round anyway, it wasn't listed though.

meanmrmustard
March 16, 2013, 06:38 PM
I voted 10mm.

Because I can buy it these days without having to search too hard. Plus, it packs the wholop I want out of a PCC. Other than higher accuracy, what's the point of that benefit if the bullet doesn't kill crap when it arrives.

10mm kills stuff.:)

wlewisiii
March 16, 2013, 06:45 PM
So you're building a carbine to do everything. What caliber is it in? Why?
The one I'm building on a VZ-24 action is in 7x57. Pistol calibers are good for pistols, not carbines.

Warp
March 16, 2013, 06:57 PM
450 socom and_. 50 are a bit more expensive than 10mm. And one could easily have a pistol in 10mm for ammo consolidation

mookiie
March 16, 2013, 07:02 PM
I am saying .45 because you have stopping power if you need it, and you can tailor your bullet to control over penetration if needed. The only issue would be bullet drop at longer ranges.

Revoliver
March 16, 2013, 07:48 PM
Voted 10mm. If I'm going to build a cabine to do everything, I want it to be in a caliber that can squeeze every biy of benefit a longer barrel can give and vica versa with a fat heavy bullet.

Reloadron
March 16, 2013, 07:53 PM
So you're building a carbine to do everything. What caliber is it in? Why?
So you want a handgun caliber. From the available choices and only the available choices I would choose the 357 Magnum cartridge.

My personal choice would be a .44 Magnum which is not listed, so I went with the .357 Magnum.

So you're building a carbine to do everything.

Good luck with "everything" as with the given choices I don't see "everything" happening. Then too my everything and your everything are likely a different everything. :)

EDIT: Never mind, just caught it was .357 Sig and not .357 Magnum. I guess then from the choices the .357 Sig.

Ron

45bthompson
March 16, 2013, 07:59 PM
A Short 357 mag lever gun sure is handy .375 mag is big enough to hunt with. I can share ammo with my revolvers. Plus I can shoot .38's for cheap fun.

Dr.Rob
March 16, 2013, 08:01 PM
My only 'pistol caliber carbine' is a 44 Magnum lever action rifle.

Hard to 'build one from scratch', but if there was a way to make a rimmed 44 mag round feed in an AR action... yes I'd want one.

My only long gun stamped 'carbine' is in 5.56mm.

2zulu1
March 16, 2013, 08:19 PM
No choice for none of the above. In pistol calibers you'll be limited to TMJ/FMJ or WFNs, JHPs will not hold together at carbine velocities.

I have a CX-4 Storm, this is what a 165gr Gold Dot looks like when pushed too fast;

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g474/aztrekker511/40cal165GD1500fps016.jpg

10mm will only exasperate an already bad combination.

A 124gr Gold Dot at only 1268fps;

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g474/aztrekker511/124GD1268fps003.jpg

If you're deadset on a carbine in handgun calibers, get a lever action in one of the mags or 45 Colt.

B!ngo
March 16, 2013, 08:51 PM
Carbine = uses pistol calibers.
Rifle = uses rifle calibers.

Nopee. As others have noted. This isn't a carbine quiz. It's a PCC (pistol caliber carbine) quiz.
With respect to PCC's, I'll take an MP5 in 9x19. About the best designed PCC in history. And having an AT94 (the MP5 exact clone w/16" barrel) I have a personal bias.
If money was no object, I'd likely go with either an MP5 carbine chambered in 10MM or a PS90 with 50 round magazines and a large supply of legal ammo.
Again, for PCC's that is.
B

Panzercat
March 16, 2013, 08:56 PM
If you're deadset on a carbine in handgun calibers, get a lever action in one of the mags or 45 Colt.
Me and levergun carbines are already well acquainted ;)

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii110/ozzallos/IRL%20Pics/1911a7_zps3135cf78.jpg

Back to auto-loading cartridges...

meanmrmustard
March 16, 2013, 09:13 PM
No choice for none of the above. In pistol calibers you'll be limited to TMJ/FMJ or WFNs, JHPs will not hold together at carbine velocities.

I have a CX-4 Storm, this is what a 165gr Gold Dot looks like when pushed too fast;

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g474/aztrekker511/40cal165GD1500fps016.jpg

10mm will only exasperate an already bad combination.

A 124gr Gold Dot at only 1268fps;

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g474/aztrekker511/124GD1268fps003.jpg

If you're deadset on a carbine in handgun calibers, get a lever action in one of the mags or 45 Colt.
What's the downside again?

I see violent expansion. If penetration was what you were looking for, coupled with expansion in soft tissue at higher velocity...why not copper solid hollow points?

It isn't the cartridge that failed, nor the rifle. It was your choice of ammo. As for 10mm, I don't see a speed increase hindering lead solids, or Barnes solid copper for that matter.

BCRider
March 16, 2013, 09:22 PM
'mustard, I could be wrong but I read into 2zulu1's post that the rounds expanded like this just due to the air and higher than normal velocities. If that's not the case hopefully he returns to clear up what made them expand like this.

meanmrmustard
March 16, 2013, 09:37 PM
'mustard, I could be wrong but I read into 2zulu1's post that the rounds expanded like this just due to the air and higher than normal velocities. If that's not the case hopefully he returns to clear up what made them expand like this.
I'm hoping not, because I'd have to call malarkey.

I've not seen that in ANY PCC firing bonded hollow points, let alone cast or copper solids. Ever.

Walkalong
March 16, 2013, 09:48 PM
I've got ARs...and when I wanted a pistol-caliber carbine, I went with a 9mm. Cheap to shoot, low recoil, and I've got ammo cans (plural) in the garage.Yep, cheap, easy to carry plenty of ammo, ammo everywhere, free brass everywhere, plenty enough gun for close up, etc,.

backbencher
March 16, 2013, 10:43 PM
I voted for 9mm, but I own a Kel-Tec SUB-2000 in .40" S&W. The SUB-2000 is the bee's knees in PCC.

Warp
March 16, 2013, 10:45 PM
I had a Sub2k. I decided people only thought it was the bee's knees because there isn't any real competition, and sold it.

But it didn't fail on me when I had it, at least. That's not bad for a KelTec

c1ogden
March 16, 2013, 10:55 PM
I chose 9mm because its the only one on your list that I currently use and always have on hand. The PD issued Ruger PC9 carbines and they were very nice but if I had my choice I'd also like a 38/357 version of Ruger's .44 mag carbine.

bannockburn
March 17, 2013, 01:47 AM
I voted for the 9mm. I have plenty of it and my favorite carbine years ago was a Sterling Mk.6. I use to limit myself to 6 mags per range session because that gun could burn through ammo really quick!

Luger_carbine
March 17, 2013, 03:08 AM
I feel I would be remiss in my duties if I didn't suggest 9mm Luger

BCRider
March 17, 2013, 04:37 AM
So you're building a carbine to do everything. What caliber is it in? Why?

OK, I'll play too.

First off your choice of options most certainly tosses the "do everything" part in the flusher. Any pistol caliber carbine is going to be limited compared to a rifle caliber.

You don't believe this? Check out the external ballistics calculator at http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/ballistics-calculator . It's a great resource for playing "what if....".

A 124gn 9mm zipping along at 1200 fps, which wouldn't be far off what the round would manage from a carbine length barrel, shows a whopping 44 inches of drop and velocity is down to 900 fps. It'll definetly still hurt anything alive you are shooting at but it's pretty obviously far from a "do everything" sort of option.

And none of the other handgun calibers do much better. Try them out for yourself.

As I see it the chief advantage of a PCC over the handguns shooting the same ammo is mostly the increase in stability for longer shots to 50 and 100 yards. This comes from being better able to support the rifle style more steadily than many folks can hold a handgun.

The increase in size and weight over the handgun also makes a PCC faster for shooting at multiple targets in many cases. This "many cases" referring to us simple types that can't hit targets as fast as shooters like Todd Jarret or Jerry Miculek or any of the other top match shooters. For us common folks generally a PCC can let us recover and get on the next target and get a shot off faster than we can do this with a handgun. Not a whole lot faster but enough that it shows in times for things like Steel Challenge or my own club's down home version of that sport. The PCC carbine guys can typically shoot the 5 targets in about 60% to 75% of the time they do the same stages with their center fire semi auto handguns.

If this isn't what you had in mind you might want to expand a little on your original post so we have a better idea of what you mean by "do everything".

Auto426
March 17, 2013, 04:38 AM
For an "everything" gun, I would opt for some more than a pistol caliber, like 5.56 in an AR. But if I wanted a pistol caliber carbine, I would opt for either a 9mm AR or a lever action in a magnum caliber.

Panzercat
March 17, 2013, 01:23 PM
First off your choice of options most certainly tosses the "do everything" part in the flusher.
I would require it to make me waffles in bed as well.

But seriously, in terms of do everything you're allowed some mental leeway since no round will obviously do everything. Except 30-06. But everybody knows that. So given the inherant known advantages and disadvantages, velocity tables penetration and sporty colors that the round come in (green makes for better zombie slaying, for example (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jbg8-luVZWY/TvFoLcl5kxI/AAAAAAAABVY/WxibK6YFAsI/s1600/Imgp1200.jpg)), I'm assuming you would opt for 9mm from the choices present as well.

jim243
March 17, 2013, 06:44 PM
While the 9mm is a fun plinking round, the 40 S&W (135 Grain JHP) coming out of a Hi-Point 4095 at 1,300 fps really tears things up and doesn't cost a arm and a leg to shot.

Jim

jim243
March 17, 2013, 06:57 PM
I'll take an MP5 in 9x19. About the best designed PCC in history

Sorry, B!ngo, it is neither a pistol or carbine but a sub-gun, completely different class of gun. To be a carbine it MUST have a barrel 16 inches or longer and a barrel band. And to qualify as a pistol it can not have a folding stock. (or any stock for that matter or a vertical grip)

Jim

OilyPablo
March 17, 2013, 06:58 PM
I want a 10mm or .357Sig Carbine so bad I can taste it. I have all the others.

I saw a 10mm Oly upper at the fun show early last year - $~500 NIB IIRC. I should have bought it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fun shooting? Hot .45ACP (P+) in my Camp Carbine is pretty great. Never hunted with it, but good accurate gun. Takes reliable 1911 mags.

Warp
March 17, 2013, 07:02 PM
Sorry, B!ngo, it is neither a pistol or carbine but a sub-gun, completely different class of gun. To be a carbine it MUST have a barrel 16 inches or longer and a barrel band. And to qualify as a pistol it can not have a folding stock. (or any stock for that matter or a vertical grip)

Jim

Whose definitions are these?

jim243
March 17, 2013, 07:06 PM
Whose definitions are these?

As to length and attachments - ATF. You want to put a 16 inch barrel on a MP5 (LOL) and make sure it's 26 inches long, be my guest.

Jim

mljdeckard
March 17, 2013, 07:07 PM
Not a pistol caliber at all.

If I am choosing a weapon that required two hands and has a stock, I'm not downgrading to a pistol cartridge.

Warp
March 17, 2013, 07:07 PM
As to length and attachments - ATF. You want to put a 16 inch barrel on a MP5 (LOL) and make sure it's 26 inches long, be my guest.

Jim

Specifically I am most interested in the definition of "sub-gun"

Cosmoline
March 17, 2013, 07:19 PM
It gets super confusing. The fact is most WWII era bolt action "rifles" were really CARBINES. Some were even called as much, like the K-98k or the K-31 Swiss. K being short for karabiner. Then there's the added confusion of the "short rifles" mixed into the batch. So you can have Mauser rifles, Mauser carbines and Mauser short rifles all of highly variable sizes.

For this thread I think the term would be "pistol caliber carbine." And in this case obviously a semiauto pistol caliber carbine.

jim243
March 17, 2013, 07:21 PM
You can save me time and go to ATF yourself and look up the definition of Sub-Machine Gun. Basicly a SBR designed to use a pistol caliber round in fully automatic mode. What you need to look up is the definition of a Carbine.

Jim

OilyPablo
March 17, 2013, 07:35 PM
There is no exact, precise definition of carbine.

a short-barreled lightweight firearm

OilyPablo
March 17, 2013, 07:37 PM
Not a pistol caliber at all.

If I am choosing a weapon that required two hands and has a stock, I'm not downgrading to a pistol cartridge.

It really depends what you are choosing it for.

Panzercat
March 17, 2013, 07:58 PM
Hmmm, 9mm by a super long margin and 10mm running second just because its so darn awesome. 45acp rounding out third to split the price/stopping power difference, I suspect. Wonder how much of 9mm was chosen just for economy sake in that regard.

jim243
March 17, 2013, 07:59 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbine

DM~
March 17, 2013, 08:51 PM
In a "pistol" cartridge, my carbine is a 44mag. and it's what i MUCH prefer. Second choise, would be a .357mag...

DM

BCRider
March 17, 2013, 10:32 PM
Well, for me guns are range toys. So I'd likely choose the 9mm to hold costs down.

If I were looking for a self/home defense sort of deal I'd likely go with .45ACP for close in heavy hitting power or perhaps 10mm if the gun would be used for reaching out to more like 100 yards on a consistent basis. Such as varminting on a ranch. But in that case I'd likey go with 124gn jacketed .357Mag from my Rossi lever gun and be even happier.

I've shot a variety of PCC's during my fairly brief shooting sport hobby. Some of them were so smooth and effective that they were actually boring. Others kicked and smoked and made me feel like I was really DOING something.

Of the more efficient guns the Beretta Storm and HK semi auto only civilian version guns were highly effective for putting rounds on target quickly and accurately. But for range giggles they were supremely boring after the first couple of magazines.

The Keltec S2000 and JR Carbine kicked and smoked and thumped like an old out of tune Ford Model T. But BECAUSE they do this they really make the smiles flow at the range. Shooting them becomes a really entertaining experience. Accuracy wise they are darn decent. But all that kicking, smoking and thumping around makes it a little slower to put rounds on target to the same level of accuracy as the Beretta and HK.

So there simply isn't any one "do it all" option. There's a bunch which fit a couple of needs really well while not doing so hot at other things.

Hey, minivans are OK for a wide variety of uses. But you don't enter the Indy 500 with one or show up at the Friday evening local drag races with one, or expect it to haul plywood and steel around without due consideration. And neither can you expect any one cartridge you asked about or the guns it fits to do it all either. You need to set some realistic parameters for cost and intended range of use. Only then can you or anyone else suggest what fits your needs.

jmr40
March 17, 2013, 11:59 PM
Pistol caliber carbines no longer make any sense. The development of carbine length AR's has made them obsolete. They are soon destined to go the way of the dinousaur.

A 5.56 caliber AR carbine will be far less expensive as are the magazines. Any small difference in ammo costs between 5.56 and 9mm will easily be offset by less expensive guns and magazines.

The 5.56 round is far more effective, the guns are the same size,length, and weight. If you need a range toy to shoot cheap there are 22 caliber carbines for that role.

The magnum revolver rounds are the exception. From short barreled rifles and carbines they are a big step up in performance over the same rounds in handguns.

Tomcat47
March 18, 2013, 12:04 AM
I chose .45 ACP, but I would equally build a 9mm.

My reasons would be to go with auto's I have and carry on a daily basis.

mljdeckard
March 18, 2013, 02:08 AM
I concur with jmr completely.

Water-Man
March 18, 2013, 02:40 AM
5.56
.357 mag

biohazurd
March 18, 2013, 02:46 AM
I think .45 carbines are an absolute joy to shoot and i would love one in the future as an addition to my home defence "Collection". Dont own one yet but my 9mm AR is just begging me for a big brother! I also think the .357/.44 mag lever action and pistol combo would be great. Had an uncle who hunted with a .44 Mag rifle for deer and varmint. To much success.

I guess if i had to choose i would say .45 acp though. Cant elaborate anymore than i already have.

MCgunner
March 18, 2013, 11:00 AM
None of your choices. .357 magnum for versatillity (the sig will NEVER match the .357 magnum, especially in a rifle). If power is needed, .454 Casull in a Rossi 92.

Warp
March 18, 2013, 11:24 AM
Pistol caliber carbines no longer make any sense. The development of carbine length AR's has made them obsolete. They are soon destined to go the way of the dinousaur.

A 5.56 caliber AR carbine will be far less expensive as are the magazines. Any small difference in ammo costs between 5.56 and 9mm will easily be offset by less expensive guns and magazines.

The 5.56 round is far more effective, the guns are the same size,length, and weight. If you need a range toy to shoot cheap there are 22 caliber carbines for that role.

The magnum revolver rounds are the exception. From short barreled rifles and carbines they are a big step up in performance over the same rounds in handguns.

To some people, in some situations, with some wants/needs, a pistol caliber carbine still makes sense.

Sure, they won't be extremely popular, and they won't be something that more enthusiasts have than no, but the ammunition IS less expensive, and if you shoot a lot that will save money overall. Some people will already have, say, 9mm, but not 5.56, and for the sake of ammunition compatibility and consolidation they may want to just stick to 9mm. Less recoil. Less muzzle blast/flash. These are some advantages. They fill a niche. They won't disappear. No different than the many other firearms and cartridges that simply fill a niche, and hang around, but never truly go mainstream.

BCRider
March 18, 2013, 02:01 PM
Having heard how loud 5.56 AR's are in an indoor range even WITH the hearing protectors I can't imagine the shock to the hearing and likely some related sound induced temporary disorientation that would come from actually shooting an AR indoors in a small area without hearing protection. The only good thing is that both the attacker and defender would be equally affected in the event of a miss. Otherwise that first shot had better be a good one.

A PCC with the right rounds would still be noisy as blazes but not at all in the same league as the AR shooting a 5.56 round. So perhaps there is still a place for the PCC as a home defense firearm.

Then there's the range giggles aspect. For someone that already is commited to a given semi auto caliber and has a couple of handguns chambered in a given caliber having a PCC that accepts one of the handgun magazines makes for cheap fun at the range and extends the ease of supplying ammo to feed the beasts.

Warp
March 18, 2013, 02:22 PM
Having heard how loud 5.56 AR's are in an indoor range even WITH the hearing protectors I can't imagine the shock to the hearing and likely some related sound induced temporary disorientation that would come from actually shooting an AR indoors in a small area without hearing protection. The only good thing is that both the attacker and defender would be equally affected in the event of a miss. Otherwise that first shot had better be a good one.

A PCC with the right rounds would still be noisy as blazes but not at all in the same league as the AR shooting a 5.56 round. So perhaps there is still a place for the PCC as a home defense firearm.

Then there's the range giggles aspect. For someone that already is commited to a given semi auto caliber and has a couple of handguns chambered in a given caliber having a PCC that accepts one of the handgun magazines makes for cheap fun at the range and extends the ease of supplying ammo to feed the beasts.

Agreed on all counts.

kludge
March 18, 2013, 02:45 PM
Since you're list shows pistol calibers, I'll stick with pistol calibers and go with either .45 Win Mag or 10mm Magnum. :evil:

mavracer
March 18, 2013, 03:05 PM
Having heard how loud 5.56 AR's are in an indoor range even WITH the hearing protectors I can't imagine the shock to the hearing and likely some related sound induced temporary disorientation that would come from actually shooting an AR indoors in a small area without hearing protection. The only good thing is that both the attacker and defender would be equally affected in the event of a miss. Otherwise that first shot had better be a good one.
Another wonderful aspect of the 300 Blackout even without a can the subsonic loads are pretty quiet compared to a 9mm +p from a pistol.

Warp
March 18, 2013, 03:09 PM
Another wonderful aspect of the 300 Blackout even without a can the subsonic loads are pretty quiet compared to a 9mm +p from a pistol.

Isn't this thread about carbines?

Yes, the AAC .300 has some big advantages. But as soon as price/economics enters the equation, it's difficult to compare .300 with 9mm.

mavracer
March 18, 2013, 04:08 PM
Yes, the AAC .300 has some big advantages. But as soon as price/economics enters the equation, it's difficult to compare .300 with 9mm.
I probably should have left the pistol out of my comment I knew somebody would zero in on that. Subsonic 300 blackout is still going to be quieter than supersonic 9mm because 300 blackout subsonics run at much lower pressure. As to cost blackout cost about the same to load for FMJ.

1 old 0311-1
March 18, 2013, 04:43 PM
9mm HiPoint. TOTALLY reliable and inexpensive :evil:

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n489/kcq1/P1030386_zps34d16860.jpg

BCRider
March 18, 2013, 04:56 PM
The .300 Blackout might well be the "better mouse trap". I've never heard a gun shooting that cartridge but all the information I've read suggests that it's a pretty quiet option.

But it does toss out the simplicity and flexibility of shared ammo and magazines if the firearms are chosen for that sort of compatibility.

Warp
March 18, 2013, 06:07 PM
I probably should have left the pistol out of my comment I knew somebody would zero in on that. Subsonic 300 blackout is still going to be quieter than supersonic 9mm because 300 blackout subsonics run at much lower pressure. As to cost blackout cost about the same to load for FMJ.

You load AAC .300 blackout for about the same as 9x19?

Panzercat
March 18, 2013, 07:27 PM
I'm kind of surprised at the resurgence of .45acp vs 10mm for second place. Admittedly I love the idea of 10mm shock and awe, but I love the idea of actually being able to easily get the ammo in question almost as much.

BCRider
March 18, 2013, 10:00 PM
You load AAC .300 blackout for about the same as 9x19?


Before the current panic I suspect that deals could be found on various .308 bullets that would allow for low cost reloading. Not as low as 9x19 but within nickel to dime of the 9mm.

Consider too that at speeds of up to around 1500fps that cast gas check bullets could be validly used if the shooter wanted to play around with finding a load and bullet shape that fed correctly. That opens up the door to home casting and drops the price to about the same or perhaps even lower than loading a 9mm with a commercial bullet.

Warp
March 18, 2013, 10:01 PM
Before the current panic I suspect that deals could be found on various .308 bullets that would allow for low cost reloading. Not as low as 9x19 but within nickel to dime of the 9mm.

Consider too that at speeds of up to around 1500fps that cast gas check bullets could be validly used if the shooter wanted to play around with finding a load and bullet shape that fed correctly. That opens up the door to home casting and drops the price to about the same or perhaps even lower than loading a 9mm with a commercial bullet.

So this is speculation.

I haven't yet met somebody who legitimately reloads .300 for about the same cost as 9x19. Not even close.

Warners
March 18, 2013, 10:29 PM
I went through this decision a short time ago myself, but it was only between the 9mm and .45 ACP. This was before I started reloading, but even so, my answer would be the same today. Even though I didn't own another 9mm gun at the time (I do now), I went with the 9mm. The main reason was due to cost to feed. Since I started reloading (before the great ammo crisis!), the cost difference really isn't much. Having said that, I'd STILL choose 9mm simply because the cartridge gains so much from the longer barrel, while the .45 ACP actaully LOSES velocity in the longer barrel. I don't recall the exact numbers, but I'm almost positive the 9 was MORE powerful than the 45 from the longer barrel. I'm certain that it was flatter shooting by a long shot, as well. I had not considered the other calibers in your survey though.....

Warner

mavracer
March 18, 2013, 10:50 PM
You load AAC .300 blackout for about the same as 9x19?
No I'm loading 168gr match bullets at 1800 fps for about 25 cents a round, but when I bought my bullets I had a chance to buy 147gr FMJs for $119 per K which would drop my per round cost to 17 cents.

OilyPablo
March 18, 2013, 10:52 PM
.....I'd STILL choose 9mm simply because the cartridge gains so much from the longer barrel, while the .45 ACP actaully LOSES velocity in the longer barrel. I don't recall the exact numbers, but I'm almost positive the 9 was MORE powerful than the 45 from the longer barrel. I'm certain that it was flatter shooting by a long shot, as well. I had not considered the other calibers in your survey though.....

It really depends on the cartridge. Some .45 does really not gain anything in a longer barrel, some does. Without a doubt a higher pressure round like the 9mm luger does get some great gains in a longer barrel, as does .357Mag (some are 2x velocity gain, that's HUGE!), 357Sig, 10mm, and 44Mag

Love this site: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/index.html

CA Raider
March 18, 2013, 10:58 PM
"Have you considered a .30 carbine? It's still one of the best platforms of all time IMO. "

This comment appeared early on this thread. Hope somebody can explain more details .... I'm curious about the positive feedback on the .30

thanks,
CA R

Warners
March 19, 2013, 09:14 AM
9mm HiPoint. TOTALLY reliable and inexpensive :evil:

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n489/kcq1/P1030386_zps34d16860.jpg
What kind of magazines are those? Modified in any way? How do they work?

Let me know and thanks,

Warner

psyopspec
March 19, 2013, 10:07 AM
I've always liked the concept of a 10mm carbine as an HD weapon. I'd still be interested in owning one, especially out of the calibers listed. But it would have a very specific roll as a fun gun or possible HD gun. And for the latter roll, I would have to consider whether I wanted to give up a 5.56 platform. Off the top of my head I'm still inclined to go with the more potent rifle.

While it's a fun thought experiment and it would be cool to own such a thing in 10mm, it also wouldn't do all. I wouldn't hunt with it as a rifle would be a better choice. I wouldn't carry it as it would be too large.

1 old 0311-1
March 19, 2013, 10:56 AM
The 3 mags with my HiPoint are Pro Mags. They are 15 round mags and have been 100% reliable.

VBVAGUY
March 19, 2013, 10:57 AM
It is not listed there but my choice would be the 357 magnum and 44 magnum as you can also use the 38 special and 44 special. Also the 357and 44 magnums gain excellent velocity with a longer barrel such as a 16 inch compared to the other choices listed. Just my opinion. God Blessc :)

meanmrmustard
March 20, 2013, 10:19 PM
I concur with jmr completely.
I don't.

When a PCC can not only take the same sidearm ammo, but also take the same magazines in most cases, it makes quite a bit of sense.

As much as I detest the Keltec fold up thingy, it has the ability to work with popular pistol manufacturers magazines, like Glock and Berretta. That's not only 9x19, either. Tell Spec Ops units that the silenced MP5s are obsolete.

CQB doesn't necessitate only mid power rifle cartridges, or else our military would be packing AR pistols, and our enemies would have Dracos on their sides.

meanmrmustard
March 20, 2013, 10:22 PM
It gets super confusing. The fact is most WWII era bolt action "rifles" were really CARBINES. Some were even called as much, like the K-98k or the K-31 Swiss. K being short for karabiner. Then there's the added confusion of the "short rifles" mixed into the batch. So you can have Mauser rifles, Mauser carbines and Mauser short rifles all of highly variable sizes.

For this thread I think the term would be "pistol caliber carbine." And in this case obviously a semiauto pistol caliber carbine.
Well, semantics. The "K" is short for "Kurz" which in turn means...short! Ip so facto, a carbine!

Warners
March 20, 2013, 10:23 PM
The 3 mags with my HiPoint are Pro Mags. They are 15 round mags and have been 100% reliable.
Thanks....

Warner

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