Interesting John Farnam comments on Dog Attacks


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Kestrel
March 13, 2004, 05:04 PM
==========================
29 Feb 04

Dog Attack:

"A colleague suffered a serious dog attack last week. Marv was a member of a bond enforcement team (bounty hunters) attempting to arrest a local bail jumper. He and two metro police officers went to the back of the house where the bail jumper was living to cut off escape routes, while the rest of the team went to the front door. As he moved around the house to the rear, the suspect opened the back door and released a large pit bull. The dog immediately charged across the back porch and, without hesitation, leapt directly at Marv's throat!

The dog struck Marv's raised left arm, fell to the ground, bounced back up, and, once more, lunged at Marv's throat. Marv punched the dog in the head, knocking it back to the ground. Marv punched him down several more times, as he moved backward. Finally, the dog settled for a less advantageous line of attack and firmly attached his jaws to Marv's right shin. Marv finally drew his SIG220 (230gr Speer Gold Dot), and shot the dog in the neck and shoulders four times in rapid succession. The dog let go, backed off, and then came at Marv again! Marv, using his sights, immediately fired two more shots, this time into the head of the charging animal. The dog, struck in the head and face by both rounds, staggered and fell, DRT.

All six of Marv's rounds found their mark. Five bullets stopped, fully expanded, in the dog. One, fully expanded, went through and through. The one that went through and through, exited (mostly spent) and then struck Marv's right leg just above the in the ankle. Marv's wound was not serious but did require surgery.

Metro officers who witnessed the event were amazed at the speed of Marv's reaction. The first four rounds were fired so fast, witnesses all thought there were only two!"

Lesson: Most dog attacks end only when there is a fatality, yours or the dog's! It is no time for half measures. When tangled up with a dog, it is not hard to imagine getting a body part on line with a potential bullet exit point. No matter what happens, you have to keep fighting. As my friend and fellow instructor, Keith Jones, is fond of saying, "Pistol fights resemble fist fights much more than they do tactical, nuclear attacks!" When shooting a pistol in an emergency we must:

1) Distract our enemy's focus 2) Disrupt his plan 3) Disable his body 4) Destroy his will to fight

In the case of a pit bull, point four is accomplished only with the death of the animal. This isn't Disneyland!

/John
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Mannlicher
March 13, 2004, 09:34 PM
I recognize parallels here with some of my experieces in the past, when I would help my brother in law clear out packs of feral dogs, that infested the forest he was head ranger for. We always hunted in tandem, one with a Ruger Semi Auto carbine in .44 mag, the other with a Browning A5 Sweet Sixteen loaded with #1 buck or BB. Some of those darn dogs took a heap of killing.

444
March 13, 2004, 09:38 PM
I would love to see some statistics done on the things discussed on this board. Shooting dogs certainly has to be one of the most popular topics on this board. At least one of the top 10.

DMK
March 13, 2004, 10:51 PM
I would love to see some statistics done on the things discussed on this board. Shooting dogs certainly has to be one of the most popular topics on this board. At least one of the top 10. It's also probably one of the most likely situations we could get into where a defensive firearm would be necessary.

I'd say a lot more folks get attacked by dogs than by people.

itgoesboom
March 13, 2004, 11:01 PM
Also one of the scarier types of attacks. I know I would rather be attacked by a 300lb felon than a 100lb dog.

I.G.B.

Stand_Watie
March 13, 2004, 11:10 PM
I'm glad for his sake that it was a vicious pit bull and not a vicious great dane or st. bernard.

If we could only figure out some way to impregnate the urban legend that hairless chijuajuas are the most dangerous, evil, vicious, psychotic animals on the planet into the minds of drug dealers and assorted other anti-social individuals, we'd have 90% of serious dog maulings licked.

itgoesboom
March 13, 2004, 11:56 PM
Yeah, that would be pretty funny. It would also probably start a new "what round for a Chihauhua (sp)".

I am thinking .17HMR or .22lr, or would .22mag be too much?

I.G.B.

Mikul
March 15, 2004, 02:01 PM
or would .22mag be too much?
.22 mag would ruin the pelt.

Dogs, in general, need a lot to put them down. They may be dead after the first of second round, but that doesn't seem to bother them. Four or five rounds is good. They even need a second helping of 12 gauge.

DadOfThree
March 15, 2004, 02:20 PM
If we could only figure out some way to impregnate the urban legend that hairless chijuajuas are the most dangerous, evil, vicious, psychotic animals on the planet
I don't know about dangerous but they already get my vote for most evil, vicious, and psychotic animal on the planet. And don't forget annoying :D :D

MBG
March 15, 2004, 02:31 PM
If we could only figure out some way to impregnate the urban legend that hairless chijuajuas are the most dangerous, evil, vicious, psychotic animals on the planet


Urban Legend? Those things are mean. A pack of them is like a fleet of land piranhas.

Nothing but bones left, when they’re done. :D

Marty

Penforhire
March 15, 2004, 02:58 PM
I haven't tried it myself but I heard you can defend against an attacking dog with a piece of paper. Held in both hands like a board at arm's length it confuses the animal and they don't know they can run through it. Probably would work on my dog, he's an idiot...

Daniel T
March 15, 2004, 04:22 PM
The one time I was seriously attacked by a dog (some kind of German Shepard mix), I was able to keep it from biting me by shoving my backpack into its mouth as I yanked out my knife and stabbed it in the head. I don't know that I'd want to try that with a piece of paper. :)

BTW, the blade of my knife did not penetrate the dog's skull, but did cut a furrow down the back of its skull to its neck. Apparently that was enough for it, because it ran off. Lucky me.

gunsmith
March 15, 2004, 04:25 PM
If we could only figure out some way to impregnate the urban legend that hairless chijuajuas are the most dangerous, evil, vicious, psychotic animals on the planet

Shouldn't be to difficult,we have all ready convinced the gang bangers they look "tough" in those silly clown outfits they wear,baggy pants with underwear showing...I once saw this guy trying to run away from the cops,every 2 steps he had to pull up his pants,it was really funny.

The dogs however are a different story,I used to live in NYCitys lower east side in the 1980's during the crack epidemic,the pits around there look like you need a 45/70 to take them down,I witnessed a pit pull being shot,it took close to 30 rounds of 9mm to convince it to stop attacking,but it never let go of the poodle it killed.
I am hoping that if I ever get attacked my .357 will handle it,but there is only 5 shots in my snubby

Calhoun
March 15, 2004, 04:35 PM
I have done this. It was not fun, I do not want to do it again, but I'm glad that it worked.

Clean97GTI
March 15, 2004, 04:37 PM
A friend of the family was on a drug raid when he was attacked by a dog. The officer was able to put the dog down with a string of .40 Gold Dots, but had powder burns because the dog (a Rottweiler) knocked him down after being shot and continued to attack. He counted his rounds and said he had fired eight into the dog. Luckily, he got away with only slight powder burns and cuts/punctures from the dog.

He said the rabies treatment was far worse than the attack ever was. :(

Leatherneck
March 15, 2004, 04:52 PM
Well, if a shotgun is out for logistical reasons, I think a baseball bat is a pretty effective weapon for doggies. Pistols are too much of a challenge to draw, aim and fire effectively against a fast-moving target like an attacking dog. You may get lucky, but we've heard an awful lot of stories about multiple shot fiascos involving dogs.

FWIW, I won't be volunteering to try out the sheet of paper thingie...:what:

TC
TFL Survivor

TallPine
March 15, 2004, 05:05 PM
I'm glad for his sake that it was a vicious pit bull and not a vicious great dane or st. bernard.

in the case of the saint bernard, you would likely be drowned in saliva

:D

lee n. field
March 15, 2004, 05:19 PM
Also one of the scarier types of attacks. I know I would rather be attacked by a 300lb felon than a 100lb dog.

Abso-effining- lutely. I could probably outrun a 300 pound felon, and wouldn't be afraid of him (or her, and _that's_ a scary thought) biting at my ankles, nuts, neck, etc..

Ed Straker
March 15, 2004, 05:52 PM
'Shouldn't be to difficult,we have all ready convinced the gang bangers they look "tough" in those silly clown outfits they wear,baggy pants with underwear showing...I once saw this guy trying to run away from the cops,every 2 steps he had to pull up his pants,it was really funny.'

That's why the 'gangstas' shoot each other these days. Because if they got in a fistfight, their pants would fall down.

...

I deliver pizzas, and can't tell you the number of times there's been a little Chihuahua yapping at me, and the owner, completely serious, says, 'Don't worry, he won't hurt you.'

Luckily, I've never had to deal with any real dogs.

Mute
March 16, 2004, 01:11 PM
If we could only figure out some way to impregnate the urban legend that hairless chijuajuas are the most dangerous, evil, vicious, psychotic animals on the planet into the minds of drug dealers and assorted other anti-social individuals, we'd have 90% of serious dog maulings licked.

Ha ha. A most foul, cruel, and bad-tempered rodent.

1911Tuner
March 16, 2004, 02:50 PM
There's a simple reason that angry dogs rarely succumb easily or quickly.
It's psychological. They don't know that, after being shot that they're
supposed to fall down and be incapacitated. Probably 'cause they never
read Marshall and Sanow's book...

Rather fight a 300-pound BG than a 100-pound dog? Brother, ya don't hafta go that large. 50 pounds is plenty if the dog is serious. 100 pounds,
and you'll likely need a 30-caliber rifle to put him down without gettin' a bit
shredded.

Woof!

Tuner

Kestrel
March 16, 2004, 04:22 PM
Leatherneck,

You might be surprised at the lack of ease in putting down a dog with a baseball bat. Their speed can be astonishing and if your timing was PERFECT, you might get one good hit, before he closed the distance and you lose the advantage of centrifugal force in swinging the bat. When he's on his way to you, his head is bobbing as he's digging in and it's hard to hit.

When he's on you, you can't swing the bat with as much force. You would also be surprised at your body's reactions to the dog, hampering your ability to effectively deliver blows.

I saw an animal control officer being attacked by a pit bull. The dog was clamped down on her arm, whipping it's head back and forth, trying to shred her arm. She was trying to hit the dog with some sort of a stick (looked like a night stick), with no effect. She might as well have been spitting on the dog. The dog was all business.

The best defense to a dog attack, is a near-contact head shot. With a caliber that will penetrate the skull.

Steve

1911Tuner
March 16, 2004, 04:58 PM
An effective defense against a dog that hasn't been attack-trained is a
lance. A stick about 6 feet long, an inch and a half in diameter, sharpened
to a point does the trick.

A dog tends to clamp down on the closest thing to him. When the charge is iminent, hold the stick well in front of you. When the dog ties onto the
end of the stick, shove it aggressively down his throat, and press the counterattack until the dog is backing up. He probably won't figure it out
the first time unless he's really sharp, and will launch a second strike. The second time will convince him. Dogs being predators, the instinct is to break off the attack if the adversary is able to hurt or dominate them.

Ah...the ubiquitous walking stick. More useful than one might suspect.

Woof!

Tuner

carpettbaggerr
March 18, 2004, 12:44 AM
50 lbs wouldn't worry me, I could pick them up by the scruff of the neck and throw them a good distance. 100 lbs is starting to get dicy though I could probably fight one off with bare hands ( well, steel toed boots) if I had to. Great Danes and Mastiffs can kill you easily all by themselves. They were bred to kill humans and can bite right through an entire leg of lamb -- bone and all.

LCSNM
March 18, 2004, 01:21 AM
A well placed Khukuri works well!

axeman_g
March 18, 2004, 11:01 AM
Wild dogs are the main reason I started carrying a large caliber handgun whenever I go backwoods.

When I was nineteen or so one of my favorite pastimes was to drive into the Pinelands area of south Jersey and drive my jeep around, looking for historical sites, old settlements, fishing holes etc.

One nice day I spotted a nice little creek running into a large pond way deep in the Wharton Forest area. I had to ford the little creek and then stopped on the other side to investigate the pond with a lure. I walked down the little creek bank through a laurel and came face to face with 4 mongels staring at me. I backed up and they started following me. I realized, I might make it back to my jeep, but they could just leap right in if so inclined. I got to the other side of the laurel and they lunged from about 20' away. So, up the pine tree I go ..... Just cleared about 6 feet up when the first dog jumped and hit the branch I was using to step on.

So, there I am, up a tree for 4 hours... throwing pine cones at the dogs that are snarling or sleeping at the foot of the tree, depending on the wind.

Eventually they wandered off as it dusk arrived. I waited a bit, jumped down and bolted for my jeep with keys in hand. Never saw the dogs again.

I always carry a handgun in the woods now. Dogs dont understand pain or the concept of death. Wild pack dogs are dangerous and require heavy treatment.

I met a guy once, local backwoods legend that carried an old Mauser 8mm with him during cyclicle wild dog years.

Axe

1911Tuner
March 18, 2004, 12:13 PM
"50 lbs wouldn't worry me, I could pick them up by the scruff of the neck and throw them a good distance. "

He boasted...as the American Staffordshire Terrier snapped his forearm like a twig and ripped the muscle out from the elbow to the wrist...

:p

W Turner
March 18, 2004, 12:39 PM
Great Danes and Mastiffs bred for killing humans........lol.

Yeah they were bred for that wwaaaaaaaaaayyyyy back when, but with the trend for breeding going the way it has, most of these dogs are big, giant wusses.

My Dad has a black Great Dane that weighs around 160 lbs. and stands about 38" at the shoulder. I am 6'8" and he can rear up on his hind legs, put his paws on my chest and look me in the eye. Good thing he is a pansie and dumb as a brick to boot.


O'course he did recently take a blast of 00 buck to the hindquarters and we did not know until the infection set in.

Mino

JamisJockey
March 18, 2004, 12:56 PM
I'm a recreational cyclist, and have seen firsthand what a dog will do. I've seen a 30lb dog (mutt) lay a gal's calf open to the bone. Same dog was later chained, and raced to the end of the chain, snapping violently at an approaching Sheriff's Deputy, SHOTGUN in hand.
Most dog's have no idea what a gun is. This makes them doubly dangerous, as pulling a weapon isn't a deterrent or a threat. At least a person has some inherrent fear of being wounded or killed, and might back down at the sight of a firearm. Criminals are raising and using pit-bulls at what seems to be an alarming rate (no facts for me to back that up, just observation), and they are tough and agile dogs.
I have to agree with the following
A) Dog's are a more likely scenerio for most of us involving the use of defensive firearms
B) Stopping Dog's are probably in the top 10 of topics on this forum

:neener:

JonnyB
March 18, 2004, 03:21 PM
Regarding dog attacks, I've come to a conclusion. I admit that it's not based upon experience in being attacked, but is based upon years of observation and thought. Here goes:

An average adult male - most of us here - can probably kill the average dog even with his bare hands. Wait! Back off and let me finish! I don't mean a trained critter like the cops have, or a 140 pound Rottie. An *average* dog - whatever that is ;-).

The things you need are testicles of brass, and the knowledge that you *will* get hurt. Maybe badly. Deal with it. If you happen to have a one-handed folding knife, you're in high cotton. A pistol on the belt is even better. Lacking both, you can strangle, stomp, gouge eyes, crush testicles, shove fingers down ears, break legs; all sorts of things to cause them pain. Yes, you'll get bit. You'll get clawed badly, as the dog flails his feet at you. It'll hurt. Bad. Chances are, though, you'll live, and the dog won't. We can be repaired (mostly), but the dog, even if you can't kill it, *will* end up dead. You may be scarred, limping, one-armed, and blind in one eye, but alive! You may even end up filthy rich!

Fred Reed (www.fredoneverything.com) mentioned in a recent column about trying to rid himself of a 30 pound monkey that wanted a banana that he had. He caved in and handed it over. What I thought about is this: animals care not whether they cause (or experience) pain. Civilized humans don't care to do either. Fred could have broken the little bastage's 'arm', or ripped off its tail, and the banana was his to enjoy. Instead, he gave it up. If we're willing to shoot, club or stab another living thing, we should also be willing to inflict major harm with our hands, feet, elbows, teeth, whatever we possess.

If I'm ever attacked by a pooch when empty-handed, I'll let you know if theory and practice mesh. I reserve the right to be completely off-base.

JB

1911Tuner
March 18, 2004, 03:38 PM
An average adult male - most of us here - can probably kill the average dog even with his bare hands.

He ventured as the English Bulldog clamped down on his hand, refusing to release his grip even when a crowbar was used in an attempt to pry his jaws apart. The stubby tail wagged as he ignored the rain of blows on his head and neck. Quickly re-establishing his grip, he began to shake his head furiously. As JonnyB began to go into shock from pain and terror, he
sank to his knees. The Bulldog released his grip and went for the throat.
---------------------------------------

Ain't rainin' on your parade, lad...but I got my forearm caught in a machine
once that exerted about the same pressure as the bite of an English Bulldog or a Pitbull...about 600 psi. I was completely immobilized from pain...I couldn't even yell to my coworkers for help because it took my breath...and there weren't any teeth sunk into my arm 2 inches deep.

Best to carry a long, sharp stick on your hikes. It'll give the dog somethin' to do while you reach for your pistol.

Just my nickel's worth...

Tuner

sturmruger
March 18, 2004, 04:07 PM
I think that it is interesting that most dogs don't seem to recognize guns unless they have been trained to. For some reason whenever I would go crow hunting with my Mini 14 all the crows would stay as far away as possible. When I was just hiking or riding my 4 wheeler they use to flock all around me. All of the years I hunted crows I growning up I was convinced they were smart enough to know when someone was carrying a gun.

I do find it interesting that dogs don't seem to have this engrained understanding. The dog I had when I lived down in IA hated loud noises. As soon as she saw me with my 10-22 she would run like crazy for her dog house!! I tried to teach her to not be afraid, but she is just a big pansy. She used to cry when we had a thunderstorm!!!

I have read of people noticing that Coydogs seem to understand when they encounter humans that are armed that it is smart to avoid them. Maybe it is something they get when they are born in the wild.

Kestrel
March 18, 2004, 04:41 PM
axeman - Wow! Great story! Glad you made it.

I love all these man-against-dog stories. I always look forward to these "dog" threads. (Haha - maybe we should have a "Man-Against-Beast" forum here. Could even read about bird attacks, haha...)

sturmruger - What's a "Coydog"?

I have a smallish dog - only weighs around 27 pounds - but he can bite ALL the way to the bone, when he's mad. Now he's a very strong dog for his size, but I can imagine what a seemingly "small" dog in the 50 pound range could do. Do not want to be given the chance to find out.

I remember reading some good stories from Jody Hudson here, too. He's had a lot of encounters with dogs.

Steve

12-34hom
March 18, 2004, 04:59 PM
I used to live in the very southern most county [Davis] in Iowa some years back. It is quite rural and varmint hunting was excellent as there were 40,000 + acres of CRP throughout Davis county.

There were never a shortage of yotes and feral mutts to hunt and stalk. I was a 243 Winchester fan at that time, and used it extensively for all my varmint hunting needs.

There are a ton of minimum maintenance roads that laced Davis count, and while driving late one afternoon i spotted a pack of five wild dogs sunning themselves beside a pile of trees that a dozer had cleared from a draw that ran through this piece of property.

It was clear across the section @ 400+ yards, the wind & sun were in my favor. My criteria for shooting these critters was; if it did not have a collar on it was fair game. The soil is very poor in this section of Iowa and hence there were a lot of cattle & hog operations as opposed to row crop farming. These packs of dogs would wreak havoc on these domestic critters.

After glassing the pack for awhile, i got into an acceptable shooting position and dialed in my scope. At this time i was shooting a Factory Ruger 77V 243 with a fixed 12 powered Leupold scope. I don't rememberer what load i was shooting but it was probably a factory offering from Winchester or Remington.

There was a huge Collie in this pack, i could see his coat was full of cocklebur's and other wait - a- minute. I settled on him to bust first and see where the others would skate to. There was another grove of tree's west of their location @ 150 yards, i figured they all would beat feet for that timber, allowing me maybe two more accurate shots at the fleeing pack. The wind was pretty strong but directly in my face, maybe 20 MPH, i figured the range to be somewhere in the 350 yard mark. The scope i was using was a fixed power with a target dot.

My first shot, if i could get away with it was always a neck shot, going for the spinal column were the animals body met the neck itself. I settled in, and put the dot right were it was supposed to go. I touched off the shot and the dog went down in a heap, i mean its legs just went out from underneath it. The other four dogs jumped up, but to my surprise they did not move an inch. The rifle i was shooting held a total of five rounds, i jacked another round into the rifle and shot the dog that was directly adjacent to the first one, it was kinda quartering me so a raking shot through it's vitals was in order. This shot got them going, they bolted and headed for the timber. The second dog i had shot was attempting to get away. I shot him a second time and broke one of his back legs putting him down, but i had to shoot him a third time to finish him off, letting all the other dogs get away.

After examining these dogs, i would say the collie [male] was 40+ pounds, the other was a lab mix [male] + 40 pounds. I buried the carcasses near the brush pile and went about my business. Actual yardage was just over 300 yards. The 243 is an excellent cartridge, with all the differing bullets it can handle any varmint.

I really had a blast hunting varmints in that area, along with the other game that abounded, there was always farm ponds full of bass & other fish for the taking.

I go back to that area every spring to bass fish some ponds i know hold big fish.

12-34hom.

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