Learned a new lesson about Handguns Tonight!


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Airbrush Artist
March 17, 2013, 12:20 AM
Wifes sister came over with her New Husband,I mentioned I was busy going to a gun show earlier in the day which prompted Him to ask about My Revolver and I volunteered to let Him see it, so I went to the lock up in the bedroom brought it backed Unloaded it and cleared it twice,then Handed it to Him upon which He stuck his Finger in the trigger guard and Spun it like a Hula Hoop.:fire::fire: I grabbed the Gun and He looked at me and responded "ITS Empty" Yep It sure is ,Then I asked Him if He Liked Holding it ,and he said "Yep" its nice, I said Thats great ,You'll never hold it again! and returned it to the bedroom..actually its My own fault and I will count that as a lessoned learned,Never again will I do that... Wife said I was rude afterwards and I said yes I was , and I will apologize to You..but not to him because anyone of us could be dead right Now had I not cleared the Gun...

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kyhunter
March 17, 2013, 12:27 AM
AA. I find it okay to be rude when people are potentially holding a lethal tool in their hands and assume its unloaded then haphazardly endanger everyone i care about. Good job its an excellent thing you were safe about unloading and checking your wheel gun.

col.lemat
March 17, 2013, 12:30 AM
How old is he 12?

9w1911
March 17, 2013, 12:32 AM
I dont let anyone fondle my Kimber.

Airbrush Artist
March 17, 2013, 12:35 AM
I'm so angry at Myself..But I learned a Valuble lesson...One things for certain ,I will never forget it...I'm Thankful the Good Lord had my back tonight ,He is Good...

Prophet
March 17, 2013, 12:40 AM
Yeah, not real bright. That's what happens when you have a culture whose only knowledge of firearms is what they've seen on television. That's why I never hand a firearm to someone without first giving them a rundown of basic firearm handling etiquette. After a while I even started doing this with folks I expected to be familiar with handling firearms.

TCB in TN
March 17, 2013, 01:07 AM
Another reason I always either open the cylinder, lock the slide back, or other wise clear any gun before I hand it to another person. That said I would have likely been "rude" as well!

Rawss
March 17, 2013, 01:14 AM
Your brother-in-law should never own a gun.

TennJed
March 17, 2013, 01:34 AM
Your brother-in-law should never own a gun.
Maybe go the other route and use it as a teaching opp. Maybe the guy knows nothing about guns. This may have been a good chance to teach and bring another person into our hobby. I never condone reckless handling, but that may have been the first time he ever held a gun and was just trying to impress, not knowing better.

Airbrush, you know the situation better than me. Any chance of maybe inviting him to the range and teach him some safe handling?

Fishslayer
March 17, 2013, 01:38 AM
Maybe go the other route and use it as a teaching opp.

Woulda been the way I would go.

And the cylinder is always open when I hand a revolver to somebody. Always.

...and a warning about wrist snapping it shut for the n00bs.

Texan Scott
March 17, 2013, 02:18 AM
Your signature line presents a palpable irony here ... :p

sota
March 17, 2013, 02:36 AM
I would have been quite rude as well. However as others have suggested, maybe after an appropriate cooling off period you could sit this person down and determine the reason behind him thinking his actions were a good idea. (I'll guarantee in his head he finds he did nothing wrong.) If he is open to the fact he willfully and recklessly endangered everyone around him with that little display of Lone Ranger technique he might be saved from doing far worse in the future. If nothing else, consider you might have to deal with his stupidity in the future, if he were to injure (or worse) your wife's sister.

Best of luck on that one.

BemidjiDweller
March 17, 2013, 03:03 AM
I've had people do a twirl, snap the cylinder shut, fan the hammer, try to open the loading gate on a cocked blackhawk. A guy I didn't know picked up a rifle of mine, took it out of it's sock and started dry firing it at a buds house. I was there cleaning a few firearms and I went to use the bathroom. If I had known my friend was going to have people over, I would not have brought the rifles. I now don't let people handle any of my firearms except for a select few who I know how to handle firearms.

DeepSouth
March 17, 2013, 03:11 AM
I'm glad I don't get that worked up that easily.

Sure he was wrong, but man, use it to teach him not make him think gun owners are overly sensitive, paranoid, rude people.


Just calm down, after all you did know it wasn't unloaded.



My 2

rondog
March 17, 2013, 03:25 AM
Even unloaded, the fool could have dropped it and caused some serious damage to it. Yeah, like your signature says.....

Inebriated
March 17, 2013, 03:30 AM
I had a similar situation once. It was my 16 year old cousin, and he pointed my 21 at my dog... His parents never taught him gun safety, so I took the opportunity to give him the four rules, and a couple examples of why we follow them.


Of course, that was after the swift blow to the side of his head.

Skylerbone
March 17, 2013, 03:51 AM
Always best to do these things one-on-one, overtly demonstrating proper technique and asking a few qualifying questions in a casual manner. Remember an untrained adult is no different than an untrained child but we ought never talk down to adults.

I propose stopping by and inviting him for coffee and, whether you feel it warranted or not, apologize. There is no sense in having tension build between your wife and her sister and you have a teachable moment. Explain that as he broached the subject, you erroneously assumed he was familiar with safety protocol and it was reflexive action to regain control of the situation. Ask for a second chance and invite him to the range then make it a priority to follow through.

I feel it's important and here's why: if it were your child you caught playing with that firearm you couldn't very well shun him/her for life nor should you want to. Having a family member who is unsafe with firearms left to his own ignorance means everyone is still at risk of injury or death. Don't let that be on your conscience.

sota
March 17, 2013, 03:51 AM
I never ceases to amaze me how quickly and effectively a good ol' fashion cuffing to the head seems to immediately correct bad and/or unwanted behavior. Why did we ever let the hippies take that from us? I'm sure it goes along with the loss of respect (and even a little fear) of parents. I believe I'm one of the last generations (i'm 40 fyi) where the phrase "wait until your father gets home" actually struck fear and terror into my soul... and even then it was on the way out for most of the people I grew up with. Not that I ever actually got the whoopin' I most likely would have deserved, but the THREAT was enough to give me cause for concern about soiling myself.

beatledog7
March 17, 2013, 07:52 AM
Educate him.

4v50 Gary
March 17, 2013, 07:54 AM
Had a similar experience. It was not fun.

RetiredUSNChief
March 17, 2013, 08:52 AM
While painfully annoying, potentially dangerous, and certainly rude, there is a flip side of the coin here...namely the assumption, however "natural" it may be, that any given person actually comprehends the nature of firearms and firearm safety they way they should.

As I learned a long time ago in the Navy, when you "assume" something, you make an "*ss" out of "u" and "me".

One would never intentionally give a firearm to a person of known inexperience (such as a child, young adult, or first time shooter) without proper instruction on safety and handling. Likewise, one should never give a firearm to a person of unproven experience without somehow either confirming their experience or reinforcing proper behavior in the process.

Much of what we all like to refer to as "common sense" has been relentlessly pounted into our heads over quite a bit of time in order to ingrain it into our every action with a firearm. This leads to the development of good habits which embody safe handling of a firearm. A person's age alone does not confer either "common sense" or "good habits".

I never forget that I am ultimately responsible for all my firearms regardless of whom I let handle them. Yes, there is an element of personal responsibility on the individual of the person handling them, but they are MINE and I always treat them as such.

Most cases I'm pretty sure of a person's experience before I hand them a (properly cleared) firearm. But I will still carefully observe everything.

When I'm uncertain, I might do something like clear the firearm, hand it to them, and direct them to verify it free and clear and to keep the weapon pointed in a certain direction. Observations and corrections follow as necessary.

There is a need to weigh further actions based on observations, of course, but I've found that in most cases people are not "maliciously ignorant". In fact, with some tutoring, a significant portion of potential "problem children" with respect to ignorance turned out to be very adept students on the matter.

;)

hso
March 17, 2013, 09:04 AM
There's no "new lesson" in not allowing people you don't trust with your life to handle firearms without at least a brief discussion on safe/proper handling. Never assume that someone won't cowboy twirl or "Kojack" a cylinder or point a pistol at family. That might have prevented all the drama.

Jim, West PA
March 17, 2013, 09:07 AM
Maybe go the other route and use it as a teaching opp. Maybe the guy knows nothing about guns. This may have been a good chance to teach and bring another person into our hobby. I never condone reckless handling, but that may have been the first time he ever held a gun and was just trying to impress, not knowing better.

Airbrush, you know the situation better than me. Any chance of maybe inviting him to the range and teach him some safe handling?

Great response TennJed. That is exactly what i was thinking.

AA, He indeed is good and you were presented not only with a good opportunity for humility but to do as TennJed said. I'm sure it was very easy to give a 'knee jerk' reaction given the circumstances, especialy in the midst of the mixed crowd you were in.
I see two great lessons in this situation. Next time, you'll now know to politely ask someone if they have any experience handling a firearm and better assess the situation before a 'knucklehead' action can occur.And, if they don't, take advantage of the opportunity as TennJed said and maybe bring a newbie into our hobby by being able to share some correct and experienced knowledge with them.
Like the guy or not. I think i'd be eatin some crow and offering an apollogy. If for no other reason. He may come away from it with a better understanding and or appreciation of gun owners.

PRM
March 17, 2013, 09:08 AM
Agree with you TennJed... It was a missed teaching opportunity and probably a chance to get someone into shooting. If people don't know, they don't know. At some point we were all that way (maybe not the unsafe act), but somebody taught us.

I just gave my son his first Colt DA revolver. One I have carried as an LEO and now have passed it on. He is well versed in semi-autos, but never has owned a revolver. First thing I did before putting it in his hand was to go over the proper way of opening and closing the cylinder. Too many revolvers have been damaged by "flicking" the cylinder out or "snaping the wrist" to close it. I took the moment to explain the damage that practice can cause to the crane. They don't make them anymore - so treat it like it was designed. He's happy and I am confident my old friend will see another generation of use.

Moments like that aren't planned, but can leave a life long impression on someone.

Walkalong
March 17, 2013, 09:38 AM
You missed an opportunity to educate him and have now ostracized a possible gun owner/voter.

Don't let emotions drive your actions. Calmly tell him that is bad for a revolver and show him how to handle it properly. Make a friend. After all, you are going to have to be around this fellow at times, being semi related. :)

OilyPablo
March 17, 2013, 09:41 AM
Late to the party in agreeing with others, but along with your snappy remark - did you tell him what he did is actually wrong and why it is a"BAD" thing? Interestingly I would told him mechanically why it's not cool (think dudes and nice cars for example), then moved into the safety part saying of course safety is #1 and stating why. Many people learn this way.

Your wife would have been proud and saw you as a real man. Not the dude in your signature. Now if the BIL had not listened, been disrespectful, etc while you were talking. Well then you were right on and maybe you two can work it out "some time in the future."

Al Thompson
March 17, 2013, 10:15 AM
I propose stopping by and inviting him for coffee and, whether you feel it warranted or not, apologize. There is no sense in having tension build between your wife and her sister and you have a teachable moment. Explain that as he broached the subject, you erroneously assumed he was familiar with safety protocol and it was reflexive action to regain control of the situation.

Ask for a second chance and invite him to the range then make it a priority to follow through.

Skylerbone nailed it. Follow his wise advice and see if you can recover the missed opportunity to teach a new guy. Nobody was born knowing it all. :)

And if you are unfamiliar with the four rules... V ;)

leadchucker
March 17, 2013, 11:27 AM
Mistake #1; You handed a gun to someone that you did not confirm was competent to handle a gun.
Mistake #2; You blamed the incompetent gun handler for your first mistake.

To your credit, at least you did not hand a loaded gun to an incompetent gun handler.

berettaprofessor
March 17, 2013, 11:39 AM
Yeah, what several have said; Why be rude when you can educate?

Per your signature line, if you handed that "monkey a gun", knowing that he was not knowledgeable, would you have yelled at the monkey also and told him he'd never get to hold the gun again?

Airbrush Artist
March 17, 2013, 11:50 AM
#2 Lead,I accepted total irresponsibility for the incident immediately,what incited my emotions was his flip remark of"its not loaded." In which showed me his ignorance. And lack of respect for my property and its value .I'm big on t latter,wiith all a respect too a teaching moment that was the last thing on my mind.

Akita1
March 17, 2013, 11:53 AM
Educate him.
+1; teaching moment (right after the open handed slap of course). AA - glad you unloaded and checked it and just like WE all do when we pick up a gun, we check it again.

A relative of mine who is very experienced with all types of firearms had an AD with a .357 in his house while showing it to another relative after a holiday dinner. Thank God the round was stopped by the cast iron stove on the other side of the wall because it was otherwise headed into a kitchen full of people cleaning up after the family dinner. It was what I called his "poltergeist" gun because he had another AD it with a few years earlier while we were hunting - he dropped it on the floor of the truck and the hammer hit first, sending a tight wad of snakeshot into the liner above. We have subsequently forced him to sell it to a smith who reworked the whole thing and kept it. I got him a GP100 as a replacement but I don't go shooting with him anymore - twice is more bad karma than I choose to tempt.

Add: "experienced" does NOT mean "careful"

orionengnr
March 17, 2013, 12:33 PM
Before ever handing someone a gun (especially someone who may not have sufficient experience/knowledge) a review of the Four Rules is in order.

You have an opportunity to make this experience a positive one (belatedly).
More importantly, you now have a plan for "next time".

Bad Andy
March 17, 2013, 12:34 PM
I believe in gun control, if there's a gun around I want to be in control of it.

btg3
March 17, 2013, 12:58 PM
Situation may still be salvaged. Consider swallowing your pride, extending an apology and and an opportunity to do the right thing should open up.

ngnrd
March 17, 2013, 02:54 PM
...what incited my emotions was ... his ignorance...
His ignorance should have been addressed before you handed him the weapon. You can't blame somebody that doesn't know any better, especially if you didn't even attempt to find out what his level of knowledge was.

I say, you should look in the mirror, admit your mistake, and go apologize to the guy for your rudeness. Then, if he's willing to have the discussion, let him know about safe gun handling, and its importance.

Airbrush Artist
March 17, 2013, 02:56 PM
Agreed ...

joeschmoe
March 17, 2013, 03:49 PM
I don't do show and tell. If they say they want to see it, I invite them to the range to shoot. It's safe there, after we've gone over the basic rules.

HOOfan_1
March 17, 2013, 03:53 PM
To me this goes beyond unsafe handling of a firearm...it goes toward unresponsible handling of someone else's property.

If someone let's me drive their car, I am not going to be doing donuts in it...and I wouldn't fling a person's gun around like that....even if it were a fake gun

buck460XVR
March 17, 2013, 04:25 PM
Always best to do these things one-on-one, overtly demonstrating proper technique and asking a few qualifying questions in a casual manner. Remember an untrained adult is no different than an untrained child but we ought never talk down to adults.

I propose stopping by and inviting him for coffee and, whether you feel it warranted or not, apologize. There is no sense in having tension build between your wife and her sister and you have a teachable moment. Explain that as he broached the subject, you erroneously assumed he was familiar with safety protocol and it was reflexive action to regain control of the situation. Ask for a second chance and invite him to the range then make it a priority to follow through.

I feel it's important and here's why: if it were your child you caught playing with that firearm you couldn't very well shun him/her for life nor should you want to. Having a family member who is unsafe with firearms left to his own ignorance means everyone is still at risk of injury or death. Don't let that be on your conscience.


I gotta agree with this post 100%. All the OP has done is shown his BIL that he can be rude and is overly sensitive about his firearms. IMHO, the OPs excitement to quickly show his new BIL his firearm led him to assume the BIL was already educated on the safe and proper handling of firearms......a major mistake. Then he jumps all over the BIL when the BIL demostrates to the OP, that he made a mistake on that assumption. If you value your firearms, you never hand them to someone that you do not have knowledge of their firearm experience. You also do not admonish someone without telling them what it was they did that was wrong and why. This prevents them from doing it again. Lastly, it's your BIL......someone that is part of your family, whether you like it or not. You not only have the option of making amends, and making future interactions enjoyable, but also have the opportunity to introduce someone properly to the shooting sports. We all were newbies once and many of us were guilty of doing the exact same thing the BIL did. But many of us that continued in the shooting sports had someone with patience to show us what was right and what was wrong.

Airbrush Artist
March 17, 2013, 04:42 PM
Nope,His demeanor and personality simply does not dictate Him Handling or owning a firearm.Sorry,Brutal Truth from where I sit...

Highland Ranger
March 17, 2013, 04:49 PM
I don't give the uneducated the opportunity to make that kind of mistake.

I always very politely say, have you ever handled guns before, do you know the rules and then I tell them the rules even if they say yes.

I clear it and show it clear to you.
I ask you to clear it.
Hell I ask why do you think its clear.
You then don't point it at anyone and treat it liked it is loaded even if it is not.

Its not a secret handshake club. Teach the guy and bring him into the fold.



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

Prophet
March 17, 2013, 05:14 PM
I don't give the uneducated the opportunity to make that kind of mistake.

I always very politely say, have you ever handled guns before, do you know the rules and then I tell them the rules even if they say yes.

I clear it and show it clear to you.
I ask you to clear it.
Hell I ask why do you think its clear.
You then don't point it at anyone and treat it liked it is loaded even if it is not.

Its not a secret handshake club. Teach the guy and bring him into the fold.

"Okay, this is not a toy and not meant to be played with. You should always make sure that a weapon is empty first before you handle it. I'm going to clear it now. See how I did that? Any questions? Okay, now when I hand this thing to you, that's the very first thing you're going to do with it. And remember; people have gotten killed with 'unloaded' firearms, so even after it's unloaded you treat it like it's still loaded. That means you point it at the floor, you don't put your finger inside the trigger guard. Understand?"

That's standard procedure for me. If he royally screws up after that then yes, I'd say he doesn't deserve to own or handle a firearm. But I doubt he would.

His demeanor and personality simply does not dictate Him Handling or owning a firearm.

No disrespect meant, but if that has always been the case then why did you put a firearm in his hands without any prior instruction? Unless you're saying this one single act by your relative was enough for you to come to that conclusion and you didn't have any prior misgivings. If that is the case, then bear in mind that you are just as guilty of making a newbie mistake as he was and as such he deserves just as much grace as you do.

mr.trooper
March 17, 2013, 05:17 PM
Ditto. I'm all for taking people to the range and educating them, but my own personal policy is not to let anyone handle MY guns until I see them act responsibly with a gun of their own.

One thing we just have to swallow though - If personal firearms ownership were subject to the OPINIONS of others, then very few of us here would have any guns at all. Freedom has consequences, and one of those consequences is that goofballs get to own them right along side of us until they screw up. The moment you start preempting their rights based on your feelings or opinions is the moment the constitution goes down the toilet.

Airbrush Artist
March 17, 2013, 05:40 PM
I will take that comment as a dis simply because of all the time and effort I have committed in My life past and present and future to doing it right ,with firearms there is no Mistake..like some others stated If It doesn't belong to me wheter its a gun or a Guitar or any property of someone else I respect that fact ,He didn't in a flipint and disrespectful way and says "ITS EMPTY " like that was a form of what does it matter way...

JRWhit
March 17, 2013, 05:43 PM
Maybe all ease off a little. The O.P. came here for a conversation and maybe a little venting, along with a little of going forward.
Constructive criticism is a good thing but this is chastising. A lot of post are talking about how he went overboard and should not have been rude and used it as a teachable moment. While this has truth to it, many of these post are guilty of the exact same accusations they describe. People jumping to point at the O.P.s short coming.
I don't at all believe your actions to be out of line. They could have been improved upon as all things could. I agree with this recent post as a moving forward strategy,I propose stopping by and inviting him for coffee and, whether you feel it warranted or not, apologize. There is no sense in having tension build between your wife and her sister and you have a teachable moment. Explain that as he broached the subject, you erroneously assumed he was familiar with safety protocol and it was reflexive action to regain control of the situation.

Ask for a second chance and invite him to the range then make it a priority to follow through.
I think that given the situation, you did well in not going overboard. You witnessed someone doing something that had a potential for harm to you and your loved ones. I say that by not smacking him upside the head, you did pretty good.

Airbrush Artist
March 17, 2013, 05:52 PM
I myself admitted that the whole scenario was my fault it was emotional for me because I caused it,maybe wrong on my part too express it here in the manner I did..many people who post here wait for the opportunity to jump on someones error.In This case I know better but failed,all day today I have thought of the countless Hours of reading and studying about Firearm safety and the respondsibilty yet I made such and bonehead deciscion...

wingman
March 17, 2013, 05:54 PM
Maybe go the other route and use it as a teaching opp. Maybe the guy knows nothing about guns. This may have been a good chance to teach and bring another person into our hobby. I never condone reckless handling, but that may have been the first time he ever held a gun and was just trying to impress, not knowing better.


Bingo, rudeness is a large part of our culture now it never shows leadership or maturity,you knew the firearm was safe as you approached him cylinder should have been out and you say let me show you how to check a pistol for safety. He was simply trying to be "cool" another part of the new world of reality TV,but you may have missed a good chance to teach someone.

45_auto
March 17, 2013, 05:57 PM
Have you ever tried to twirl a revolver like a hula-hoop? It's not easy.

Maybe he's really experienced and knew what he was doing.

Or maybe You just Have signs In your house With capitalization in weird Places and it was Driving him crazy.

SharpsDressedMan
March 17, 2013, 05:59 PM
WWJD? Perhaps a parable is in order!:) As other have just said, get over being made (at yourself AND him), and express your concern to him, offer to show him the ropes to proper gun handling, etc, and maybe bring over one more to our side.

HKGuns
March 17, 2013, 07:11 PM
I'm glad I don't get that worked up that easily.

Sure he was wrong, but man, use it to teach him not make him think gun owners are overly sensitive, paranoid, rude people.

Just calm down, after all you did know it wasn't unloaded.


I subscribe to this theory. You missed a very valuable teaching moment, but instead were infuriated because he didn't know as much about guns as yourself. I would have reacted far differently, regardless of the presumed danger.

He was acting out of ignorance, not wanton disregard for your safety or the safety of your family. I just hope you didn't create another anti.

I don't see where "you" did something wrong. You cleared the pistol before handing it over to him, you had no idea of his experience level, nor should you be expected to have such knowledge.

I'm not trying to jump on you either.....You reacted which we've all been guilty of at times.

HighExpert
March 17, 2013, 07:45 PM
I am all for the teaching opp, but..I had a similiar experience. A friend of my father's who is in his 60s asked about my carry weapon which is a Glock 23 and I told him about it. He asked if he could hold it and I went through all the 4 standard safety rules. I cleared the gun, showed him how to check the gun, told him it was now his responsiblity to make sure the weapon was safe and handed it to him. He promptly aimed it at me and pulled the trigger! I almost broke his wrist. Sorry, just reflex. Some folks do not take instruction very well. I haven't spoken to him since.

briney11
March 17, 2013, 08:14 PM
I have a brother in law like that. The only problem is that you can't tell or teach him anything because he was in the Army. He got his ccw and at a restraint one day started flaunting it and stuck it in a kids face as a joke. I wanted to beat him to a pulp. My wife was very proud of me that day. I calmly scolded him.

CountryUgly
March 17, 2013, 08:46 PM
You're a better man than I. I'd just bopped him on the head, called him a DA and been done with it. I feel your pain though. I had the wife's cousin over and I guess since he knew I was a gun guy he felt the need to OC his S&W. No biggie really but when he decided to unholster a loaded gun to "show it off" without my premission in my house with my young daughter 3 ft away I then had a HUGE problem. I don't see him much these days. I actually have a sign at the front door now stating "All sidearms are to remain holstered at all times"

Skylerbone
March 17, 2013, 09:31 PM
AA, I hope you didn't read my post as casting stones and I can certainly appreciate the necessary action to regain control of the situation. Guy creed says never embarrass another guy, never admitt to ignorance and always be the coolest cat in the room. It is maturity that separates men from guys and I still feel you have the wherewithal to hand him his man card.

I don't ask that you grovel and beg his forgiveness, merely express the importance of protecting your family- all of your family. That is one of several specific reasons you had for becoming informed and choosing a firearm and unsafe handling, as much as anything, is proven counter productive to that end.

I wish you well with your decision and I understand it will be difficult no matter the path going forward.

FireInCairo
March 17, 2013, 09:38 PM
When I first heard the term "gun grabber" this is exactly what I envisioned: Some knucklehead friend who would grab at my gun and start playing with it without so much as one safety concern.

In all fairness, though, you probably should have handed him the gun butt first, pointing down, and with the wheel open to display that it was empty. Then you could have admonished him for treating a tool like a toy when he started to spin it.

Airbrush Artist
March 17, 2013, 10:11 PM
I did hand Him the butt down pointed to the floor ,had the Cylinder been in the proper open Position I suspect he would Have flipped it and then continued with His twirl!

Prophet
March 18, 2013, 12:50 AM
I will take that comment as a dis

If you are referring to my comment; I mentioned that I meant no disrespect, but it is your prerogative to take my comment any way you please. Personally, I don't make a habit of harboring personal vendettas against strangers on internet forums and I hope you'll afford the same to the other members of THR. I apologize if anything I said came off as disrespectful.

That said, please understand that those who have criticized you realize as you do that when it comes to firearms there can be no room for mistakes, and when mistakes are made they must be dealt with sternly. As such, those who have criticized you are simply trying to hold you to the same high standard that you are holding your relative to. However, we also realize the need for grace afterwards because we are all fallibly human and make stupid mistakes and decisions. We all react reflexively, we all stick our feet in our mouths, we all misdirect our anger and frustration at those who do not deserve it, and yes, we're all guilty of instinctively making excuses for our mistakes as your relative did. Admitting your mistake as you have honorably done is only the first step. Just as he should humble himself, admit that he screwed up and accept your criticism for his mistake, you also should humble yourself and accept criticism for your own and, instead of taking it personally, use it to make wiser and more informed decisions for yourself in the future as we all should (which I feel is likely the reason you posted this thread to begin with).


"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Opponents must be gently instructed..." 2 Timothy 2:24-25

This fellow, uninformed and (at this point) seemingly unrepentant, is a part of your family. I don't believe you owe him any sort of apology. But I do think it would be wise for you to consider attempting to educate and inform him in the future instead of alienating him for this one act of stupidity. Who knows? Someday he may use what you teach him to save the life of your wife's sister. If after some basic instruction and cautious prodding he chooses to be unrepentant and obstinate then by all means kick the dust from your feet and move on.

RetiredUSNChief
March 18, 2013, 10:21 AM
I, too, hope I did not come across the wrong way, Airbrush Artist.

One of the things I really like about this site is that, while there are some pretty blunt members here, most of them are pretty sincere about their well meaning...and a large number of members likewise demonstrate their ability to swallow their pride in the face of facts, experience, and sound advice. This is because "The High Road" is an important philosophy on this site.

I haven't been here long myself, but this is an important quality to me. I wouldn't waste my valuable time on a site which only offered me endless sniping and bickering.

You've never come across as anything but an intelligent, responsible person in the postings I've seen you post. That's important to me...and it makes me not only want to treat you with respect, but to give you what I feel is honest and sound advice/opinions as a result. I don't go for the low-brow approach, at any rate.

What you do with your Brother-in-Law in the future is, indeed, up to you based on your first-hand knowledge and experience with him. I won't second guess you on that. But I will continue to offer up my own views and opinions based on the information you post because you obviously think it's important enough to post them in the first place.

I would expect no less from you in return, should our roles be reversed.

:):)

788Ham
March 18, 2013, 12:19 PM
Fishslayer, I have to second your opinion on the slamming the cylinder closed, like "everyone on TV does." I had a brand new Ruger Security Six I showed to a guy I worked with, first thing he did was flip the cylinder closed on it, thats when I immediately took it from him. "Whats the matter with you, ain't that gun strong enough to handle that?" I didn't bother to answer him, my looks were enough, as he got up and left 5 minutes later. Mentally deficient folks shouldn't even have the chance to handle a firearm, stupid on my part, I figured at his age he'd know better, my fault !

easyg
March 18, 2013, 01:42 PM
so I went to the lock up in the bedroom brought it backed Unloaded it and cleared it twice,then Handed it to Him upon which He stuck his Finger in the trigger guard and Spun it like a Hula Hoop
Okay, clarify something for me...
You brought the gun back with you and cleared it twice right in front of him, with him watching you, and then immediately handed it to him, yes?

If this is true then I don't see what the big deal is.

While I don't think it's a smart thing to do, him twirling the empty gun is not going to harm anyone and it's not going to harm the weapon either.

btg3
March 18, 2013, 01:54 PM
I don't see what the big deal is.
Would you be willing to advise which of the 4 rules for gun safety can be ignored? :banghead:

HOOfan_1
March 18, 2013, 02:43 PM
Umm...twirling it absolutely could harm the weapon. As I said earlier, unsafe guhandling was only a tiny part of this event. Ignorance of safe gun handling is excusable, and if Airbrush had acted like he did if his BIL had simply swept someone with the muzzle, I would say he was rude and over the top. What his BIL did was showing no respect for thhe property of another.

Would you do donuts in a borrowed car without permision?
Would you take a borrowed knife and saw on a piece of aluminum?
Would you dog ear the pages of a borrowed book?
Would you pick up a Garand at a gun store and try to do drill team moves with it?

A revolver is a heavy piece of metal...a gun is obviously a fine tuned machine..any person with sense would know that. Spinning it like that could have easily ended in dropping it.

Yeah if Airbrush had gone on like he did just for simple unsafe handling of a weapon, I would say he was a jerk for treating a gun ignorant person like that. Instead Airbrush saw that his BIL can't respect another persons property. You don't have to be a gun knowledgable person to see that is wrong...you just have to be mature...

RetiredUSNChief
March 18, 2013, 07:19 PM
Gun safety isn't about absolutes. It's about safe HANDLING and safe PRACTICES.

Yes, a gun with no ammunition in it cannot shoot. But gun safety isn't predicated on "empty guns". It's predicated on safe practices as a whole.

As btg3 said...the four rules for gun safety aren't there to be ignored.

Airbrush Artist
March 18, 2013, 07:26 PM
How about a $750-$800 Value on a 1973 99% Colt Firearm ,That did flash across my mind after the 3rd spin before I cupped my hands over it so it would not fly.It still upsets Me ,I need to let it go and do what most of you have suggested 'Apologize to the http://barryjohnsonpitching.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Horses-ass.jpg which will be Thursday evening...

Shoot66
March 18, 2013, 07:56 PM
What Walkalong said in post no. 25.

Skylerbone
March 18, 2013, 10:09 PM
We feel for you AA, believe me! I just picked up (today) the Colt King Cobra my BIL absconded with from the wife's grandmother's house (her grandfather passed away). It was missing a side plate screw, spring and latch. I also found the box for the Anaconda and Luger which he does not admit to having. I'll be removing rust from the KC (thankfully SS) and buying this one from her directly.

I'm upset that he took it and upset that it's been mistreated and molested but I know from his background that guns have never been part of the equation. He's a "kid" who wanted to play but picked the wrong hobby to put it mildly. I'll fix it and shoot it and, if he straightens up and flies right I'll gift it to him, if not, my children will have another heirloom revolver to hand down one day. That is the nature of stuff.

coalman
March 18, 2013, 10:10 PM
I was not there. But, seems to me a pro-gun opportunity to educate and inform becoming a moment of alienation and insult possibly forging another anti-gun camper. Every vote counts. Sometimes we're our own worse enemy.

Airbrush Artist
March 18, 2013, 10:33 PM
Whatever you put into it Sky is worth it to make it good again, sorry to here that My friend, heart breaking on a heirloom...

460Kodiak
March 19, 2013, 01:34 PM
Yeah, not real bright. That's what happens when you have a culture whose only knowledge of firearms is what they've seen on television.

This is very true. I'd be pissed too. I'd probably try and teach though.

rtrwv
March 27, 2013, 11:57 PM
We are the only 3 that handle my guns. Period. My wife doesn't even know how many guns are in my in the floor oversized 4ft x 6ft floor safe. I never talk guns other than here.

MaterDei
March 28, 2013, 07:07 AM
Yes, you were rude. Nothing that an apology shouldn't fix though, he is your brother in law after all.

I'm curious, what did you signature say before you deleted it?

Torian
March 28, 2013, 07:43 AM
Sometimes a little embarrassment is necessary to make a point on gun safety. After a point, I no longer really care about butt-hurt feelings.

Case in point:

Scenario A: I take my friend to the range. He's new to handling weapons, and has openly admitted his desire to learn about firearms. After explaining proper handling procedures, he sweeps me with an unloaded weapon. I will politely, but forcefully, redirect the barrel of the weapon so it's not pointed at me, and explain how a firearm is always treated as loaded, regardless of its actual state.

Scenario B: Dad comes to the range with his two children (ages 7 and 9), and fails to properly supervise them. While up at the shooting line, and distracted, yelling at his kids, he sweeps me with his weapon. I unload both barrels verbally, and remind him none to kindly of his dual responsibilities to handle his weapon safely, and maintain control of his children. I then tell him that if he is not able to achieve this state, he needs to remove himself from the range. We did not become friends at that point.

Both of the above scenarios happened to me. Some people I care enough to give them a patient lesson in proper gun safety. Others not so much.

TreeDoc
March 29, 2013, 12:10 AM
Any body that 'twirls' a gun that belongs to someone else, after asking to look at it, is showing no respect to me or safe handling. Try to educate him all you want. This dodo is just the kinda of guy I don't want in my sport/hobbie. He'll never respect guns, until he shoots himself or some else. This is the guy that the news reports " the gun just went off". Type of fellow that has an accidental discharge of weapon and laughs if off.
I would have asked him if he knew guns and the rules, and probably wouldn't have been eager to show my gun in the first place.

easyg
March 29, 2013, 02:48 AM
twirling it absolutely could harm the weapon.
How so?


Twirling AND dropping said empty handgun, maybe.

But merely twirling said empty handgun....NO, this would NOT harm the handgun in any manner whatsoever.

JRWhit
March 29, 2013, 06:49 AM
Any body that 'twirls' a gun that belongs to someone else, after asking to look at it, is showing no respect to me or safe handling. Try to educate him all you want. This dodo is just the kinda of guy I don't want in my sport/hobbie. He'll never respect guns, until he shoots himself or some else. This is the guy that the news reports " the gun just went off". Type of fellow that has an accidental discharge of weapon and laughs if off.
I would have asked him if he knew guns and the rules, and probably wouldn't have been eager to show my gun in the first place.
This brings up a good point. Often the type of person to do such things is the same type that will have an accident with a firearm of some sort due to complete negligence, and then turn to extreme protest that there is no way to safely handle a gun, and they are just all dangerous. Yes it could become a teachable moment, but if he does not acknowledge what he did as an ignorant action, and in turn only responds to your action as inappropriate, then I would not take the time to introduce this guy to shooting. All too often you'll find people who no matter what, always have other places to put blame other than on themselves for there own behavior. So maybe repair the relations with him but carefully gauge rather to have shooting part of that relationship.

Carl N. Brown
March 29, 2013, 08:15 AM
All guns deserve the respect due a lethal weapon, especially the "unloaded" ones.

Let anyone including yourself treat "unloaded" guns as harmless, the odds of something bad happening goes up exponentially.

And with my luck, if someone twirled my Security Six it would fly off their finger and break my TV set.

Carl N. Brown
March 29, 2013, 08:23 AM
Second issue.

Often the type of person to do such things is the same type that will have an accident with a firearm of some sort due to complete negligence...

I believe it was Gary Kleck who found that people who have gun accidents usually have more than average numbers of auto accidents and more ER visits for other causes.

Third issue.

Why is it people who arrogantly hold wrong ideas about guns counter attempts at correction with "I was in the military/police you can't teach me anything I know it all."

Beentown
March 29, 2013, 08:26 AM
Yeah, not real bright. That's what happens when you have a culture whose only knowledge of firearms is what they've seen on television. That's why I never hand a firearm to someone without first giving them a rundown of basic firearm handling etiquette. After a while I even started doing this with folks I expected to be familiar with handling firearms.

Yep.

Taurus 617 CCW
March 29, 2013, 08:43 AM
I handed my prized revolver to a house guest early on in my carry career (after I had checked that it was unloaded). The moment he got a hold of it he started pulling the trigger repeatedly. :what: He never checked to see if it was unloaded, just started pulling away. I immediately took it from him and he never got to see any of my other guns down the road.

MaterDei
March 30, 2013, 06:46 AM
Would you be willing to advise which of the 4 rules for gun safety can be ignored?
There are many times that they are 'ignored'. I guess they are more like guidelines than absolutes, like the pirate code. :)

Cleaning and maintaining often requires you to violate the rules. Some firearms require cleaning the barrel from the muzzle end. Many require you to pull the trigger for dissassembly, etc. Also, I'd be willing to bet that carrying a firearm through your house will cause you to point it at things that your really not willing to destroy. Same goes for dry-firing, rules violations!

When I was in the Army I rode in helicopters a lot and depending upon the helicopter type and the direction of the crew chief you were instructed to either carry muzzle up or muzzle down. You ended up pointing your weapon either up and towards the rotors or down and towards the electronics and hydraulics under the floor board. I wasn't willing to destroy either of these but pointing at one or the other was just unavoidable.

Lost Sheep
March 31, 2013, 04:56 PM
I myself admitted that the whole scenario was my fault it was emotional for me because I caused it,maybe wrong on my part too express it here in the manner I did..many people who post here wait for the opportunity to jump on someones error.In This case I know better but failed,all day today I have thought of the countless Hours of reading and studying about Firearm safety and the respondsibilty yet I made such and bonehead deciscion...
I think few want to jump on your "error" (if error there was).

It seems to me that most of the posts advising you to offer forgiveness (or a second chance) are in the interests of 1) family harmony and 2) allowing for the potential for rehabilitation of your brother-in-law 3) the potential for increasing the number of voters who support gun rights.

I don't think there is any downside to making a kindly overture.

Do what you want, but having a brother-in-law and sister-in-law who think respectfully of your temper is better than having them think badly of you. Not to mention building brownie points with your own wife.

Far be it from me to tell you how to handle your personal relationships....oh, wait! I am.

Well, just look at it as a suggestion. Do what you think best.

Lost Sheep

(edit) It seems to me that you gave him his first lesson in gun handling, and an excellent one at that. To not follow up on it with lesson #2 is the only error I see here.

theblaze
April 1, 2013, 12:36 AM
Good lesson learned and nobody was hurt.

Press on!

- Do not trust people you do not know with your guns!

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