A NEW thing for me to hate about gunshows


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45Badger
March 13, 2004, 05:54 PM
Went to Leesport PA show today (waste of $5) with a shooting buddy and my two kids. Buddy finds a table of beat to ???? guns, including several 18"-20" Remington 870 Wingmasters with police style wood stocks. These guns have split stocks, rust, pitting, about as beat as I've seen. $90 bucks. We take two apart, and inside they are clean as a whistle. Sounds good until now.......

I comment to my buddy that I don't really need it, but it's cheap, and if I decide not to keep it, I'll sell it to my neighbor. The clerk (friggin' moron if you ask me) says, "Sir, please hand me the gun. I can't sell it to you because you're not buying it for yourself"

Let's just say it went downhill from there. I was buying it for myself, and if I didn't like it, I could sell it to anyone I damned well please. Pennsylvania requires that handgun transfers be done through an FFL, but allows private transfer of long guns. The guy's boss wouldn't sell me the gun, and aside from being slightly annoyed at the clerk's wrong assumptions and gross stupidy, I could care less. Lost sale, lost customer, no problem for me.

My buddy tries to buy gun he picked out- They won't sell it to him!

Sumbuddy- Please explain where I went wrong here. I AM TIRED of some gun dealers (usually at shows) treating anyone without an FFL like morons. I guess there's some secret handshake I have to learn so I can better understand BATF regulations and the meaning of those words on that cute yellow sheet that ask me to affirm that I am the true purchaser of the weapon. I'd think my driver's license and carry permit would pretty well identify me as the actual person signing the form.....

Rant over
:banghead:

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45Badger
March 13, 2004, 05:56 PM
On the bright side, I did get to renew my NRA membership.

RED-DOG 40
March 13, 2004, 06:02 PM
The less info said around that moron the better for you.:banghead:

Sisco
March 13, 2004, 06:21 PM
I agree 100% that if you buy it it's your property to dispose of as you see fit but I guess I'd like to hear the sellers side of the story. Maybe he's been burned before by a straw purchase.

Firethorn
March 13, 2004, 06:27 PM
I can understand why they're careful right now, 'straw purchases' and the 'gun show loophole' are the current hot topics in congress right now about guns. They figure that the $90 loss of a sale is better than the potential loss from a lawsuit or 'sting operation'.

Kodiak AK
March 13, 2004, 06:58 PM
Can't you still buy gift guns?
:confused:

biere
March 13, 2004, 07:20 PM
The problem came from saying you would resell it. I am not an ffl but having talked to a few the atf is getting hard core on folks who buy stuff and resell it when they don't have an ffl.

If you said it was not a lot of money to stick into a truck gun, you would have been fine. You could have said a lot of things I expect. But I have heard from a few ffls in my area that you simply do not mention what you may do with the gun if it is a dud, if it blows up, if it grows wings and flies away.

Everyone is paranoid and ffl folks have the atf to help make them parenoid.

Over the past 6 months there have been a few posts about people who are selling off their collection and they get hassled since it may take several gun shows to get all the prices they want for their stuff.

To buy a gun and plan on reselling it, I do believe you are expected to have an ffl.

I know a lot of folks buy a gun and don't like it and then sell it. To some extent this is expected but it is also something the atf is looking at a bit more closely.

I have no clue on how the c and r stuff works and I am not an ffl so the above is simply knowledge I have gained in asking a few folks who have gun shops about weird stuff I see while I hang out and goof off.

Overall, this world is getting to the point where I wish to say as little as possable since everyone interprets it in the worst way and no one knows what sarcasm is anymore.

7.62FullMetalJacket
March 13, 2004, 07:22 PM
I have been buying for relatives for quite some time. Straw purchase only applies to the actual purchaser. When you sign the form and hand over the cas/plastic, the only thing the dealer must assure is that YOU are purchasing. No more. You can give it to the next guy in line after you complete the 4473 and buy the gun (in Utah, elsewhere YMMV)

Old Fuff
March 13, 2004, 07:33 PM
I think two things happened here. First you had a buddy with you, and second, you made the remark you did about later selling the gun to someone else. The over-worried seller smelled an ATF or media trap.

You have every right and reason to be mad. But pick on the anti-gun types who set this situation up. A few years ago this wouldn't have happened, but now it's going to happen more and more.

And it is not the dealer's fault. The gun-grabbers and their left-wing political friends have put the dealers/sellers in a gun show environment where they can't take chances. Sorry you had to be the victim.

P95Carry
March 13, 2004, 07:49 PM
D .... regretably I think Fuff and others have nailed this one ..... it is maddening and saddening ... and I can fully feel your angst.

''Times - they are a changin'' .... Dillan I think, singer that is!:p

45Badger
March 13, 2004, 09:06 PM
BS:cuss:

If gun dealers/shops want to stay in business, they need to know and adhere to the letter of the law, and not confuse themselves in trying to interpret things that are yellow and black. They also ought (as good business people) to make sure that they have knowledgable employees, who also have a comprehensive understanding of these laws.

I can forgive a part time clerk their misunderstanding, wrong assumptions, and even stupidity. Like I said, I really didn't need it. No skin off my butt. I am pi$$ed that they jerked my buddy around and would not sell him. He said nothing more confusing than, "I'll take this one"

We're two middle aged guys, kinda professional. Not exactly tin foil militia or gang bangers. If I was REALLY gonna do the strawman thing, would I have even mentioned something like reselling, even in passing? Come on.

Common sense (and good business sense) may have warranted a clarifying question (like the one on the yellow form???) to my comment, but not refusal to sell to me, and then to my friend?

This guy lost two relatively high disposable income customers, who buy too many guns (ask my wife), and other shooting junk. Arrogant, and piss poor business decision.

Billmanweh
March 13, 2004, 09:23 PM
my girlfriend (attorney in a civil practice now) and I were at the gun show a couple of weekends ago and the subject of straw purchases came up. she mentioned that when she worked in the DA's office one summer, they prosecuted a straw purchase. apparently, two guys came into the store and one put the money down on the counter and pointed out the gun he wanted the other guy to buy for him, all recorded by the store's video camera. they prosecuted the buyer and the store.

Preacherman
March 13, 2004, 09:28 PM
Badger, my friend, I think you need to step back and take a long, cool look at this situation from the other side of the counter. Imagine you're a gun dealer. You know - from previous prosecutions - that the ATF is busy with "sting" operations, particularly at gun shows, where an undercover officer will try to buy a weapon while making it clear, in one way or another, that he/she is not legally permitted to buy it. If that sale goes through, your FFL is toast, your business is toast, your future is shaky to say the least - you'll have a felony conviction at best, even if you don't do time at the Uncle Sam Hotel - and your family, etc. will suffer. So, if you see even the hint, the vaguest potential reference, that a given sale might just possibly not be legitimate - wouldn't you refuse to make that sale? I most certainly would!

I'm not saying I support the persecution of law-abiding gun dealers and owners that this represents. However, whether you and I like it or not, it's the way things are right now. We can (and should) work to change that: but under the circumstances, I can't fault that dealer for declining your business. In his shoes, I'd have done likewise.

Gewehr98
March 13, 2004, 09:55 PM
If gun dealers/shops want to stay in business, they need to know and adhere to the letter of the law, and not confuse themselves in trying to interpret things that are yellow and black. They also ought (as good business people) to make sure that they have knowledgable employees, who also have a comprehensive understanding of these laws.

That's just it, they're trying to stay in business, instead of getting shut down due to an infraction. And that involves a serious amount of risk management on their part.

You need to look at it from the FFL holder's point of view. I'm not trying to pick on you, but I hold an FFL myself. Truth is, if you were looking at a gun I had on display, and mentioned selling that gun to somebody else in front of me, prior to you actually purchasing it and removing it from my sight, I'd probably have refused to sell it to you, too. I reserve that right, and I'd sooner do that than have the ATF do a no-notice inspection of every orifice in my body based on an alleged straw sale done on my FFL. I wouldn't let you jeopardize my license or my own gun-owning rights.

I know what your intentions were, and I'm sure they were completely honorable and law-abiding. However, FFL dealers are scutinized at every step of the way these days, and they have to keep their wits about them to avoid stepping into a big pile of you-know-what. Wanna see my bound book, copies of federal and state firearms regulations, and all the ATF newsletters I keep on file? It doesn't matter how professional or clean-cut looking you are. Gun crimes aren't the exclusive domain of the scruffy or unshaven. His refusal to sell the shotguns to you and your partner was totally professional, and should not be construed as a personal attack on your integrity.

Hindsight is always 20-20, but I'd wager the sale would have gone on schedule had you not mentioned the subsequent sale to another individual. Or at least not mentioned it within earshot of the dealer.

The laws with respect to FFL sales are restrictive, I'll grant you that. We don't joke about explosive devices while waiting in line at the airport ticket counter, either, and there's a reason for that. :(

45Badger
March 13, 2004, 10:42 PM
I think we're gonna be agreeing to disagree.

"Truth is, if you were looking at a gun I had on display, and mentioned selling that gun to somebody else in front of me, prior to you actually purchasing it and removing it from my sight, I'd probably have refused to sell it to you, too. "

May I ask why? What in the statement, "I don't really need it, but it's cheap, and if I decide not to keep it, I'll sell it to my neighbor" represents an illegal act, or threat of one?

Individuals can sell guns, even guns that they bought from gun dealers, at gun shows or in shops. The "for sale" forums here are loaded with them. Foolish me for commenting that I may not keep the one I was buying. As I stated a couple times above, I think it is silly to refuse the sale, especially without clarifying question. I'll live.

What ticks me off was refusal to sell my friend. He was looking at/buying a different gun. At no time did either of us indicate in ANY way that we were trying to be sneaky, evasive, or illegal in any manner. We were both buying guns that seemed to be good deals.

Why would they not sell him gun he was looking at? Pretty slick of them to catch us trying to fake them into not selling me gun "A", so he could illicitly buy Gun "B" on my behalf for future sales to a neighbor:uhoh:

Anyway, I guess I'll live without a beater 870. If anybody has one to get rid of (real cheap), please send me a PM. I'll forward contact info to my buddy who is still looking. For himself. Really.

Happy Saturday. Maybe I'll go to the Valley Forge show tomorrow.

JohnBT
March 13, 2004, 10:47 PM
Yeah, well, what he said he was thinking about doing was perfectly legal. Legal to buy the gun and legal to sell it that day or next week if he decided to for some reason.

If I have enough money to buy a gun Saturday morning, shoot it Saturday afternoon and sell it Saturday night because either I don't like it or just wanted to try it out because I'd never shot that model - well, it's my money and it's legal.

Plenty of gun dealers around, although it sounds like there's one that won't be for long.

John

cool45auto
March 13, 2004, 10:52 PM
Dude must be allergic to money or something!:rolleyes:

Wildalaska
March 14, 2004, 12:29 AM
As one who sells em every day...day in and day out..here, there and everywhere.

What Preach and G98 said...thats it..

Dude must be allergic to money or something

Nope...$90 aint worth the loss of a license....

My two rules for the gun biz..

Make money so we can stay in business
Stay out of jail.

I dont bend the rules, or even think about bending the rules in the slightest. The rules suck but they are the rules. Nothing I can do about it. Im not going to make any political statements or do anyhting at all to bring suspcion down on us. In fact, asf ar as Im concerned, if I even suspect something hinky, Ill call the Feds myself.

Why this attidude...Simple...What goes on at the gun sale counter determines whether or not a whole bunch of guys with families take home a paycheck....

Maybe retired mom and pop hobby gunstore or basement bandits can play paperwork games if they want,. or even sell militia pamphlets put up posters or whatever...on the other hand the only timne I want to see LE is when they are buying stuff...

WildyadontlikeitgetoutandvoteAlaska

Rocko
March 14, 2004, 08:04 AM
I have been buying for relatives for quite some time. Straw purchase only applies to the actual purchaser. When you sign the form and hand over the cas/plastic, the only thing the dealer must assure is that YOU are purchasing. No more. You can give it to the next guy in line after you complete the 4473 and buy the gun (in Utah, elsewhere YMMV)


IMHO, you'd better watch yourself here.... If your relative gave you the cash to buy the gun either prior to the purchase, or you bought the gun knowning that you were going to accept money for it from them after the purchase, then that is pretty much the definition of a straw purchase.

True, you can give it to the next guy in line, but give is the key. You can gift an gun to someone w/o a problem like this, but if you accept money for it in the above scenario, then I believe it is a straw purchase. In fact, the back of the 4473 gives two examples of similar situations - one that is a straw purchase, and one that isn't.

So feel free to buy a gun as a gift for your brother, cousin, whoever, etc. but if you take anything in exchange for it, I believe it crosses the line into straw purchase territory.

Rocko

hksw
March 14, 2004, 08:14 AM
IMO, there are two possibilities that occurred here.

1. The dealer, despite being a dealer, is ignorant of the laws.

2. The dealer is playing it safe by not selling to someone who is likely to re-sell to an unknown individual.

Although there is the possibility of the ATF going after someone, I think that in the case of a non-FFL making a profit from a previous purchase, they would probably go after the buyer and not the seller (of the original purchase).

In the case of the statement,

"I don't really need it, but it's cheap, and if I decide not to keep it, I'll sell it to my neighbor"

how is the dealer to know the person you could potentially be selling to is not a felon or otherwise prohibited from owning/possessing a firearm? By making this statement aloud, he now has some responsibility to the sale of the gun further down the road. If, although I am sure this is not true but to slip into the dealer's shoes, the gun is sold to a felon/prohibited person after you had purchased it and it is used in a crime he would have some liability as he (or his employee) had heard your potential non-4473 sale after purchase.

Now he takes the risk of straw purchases every time he sells a gun but with the inclusion of the statement orally conveyed, it was, for this careful dealer, a deal breaker. He had weighed the potential liability against the small sale and went with playing it safe.

Then again, he could just be ignorant.

ID_shooting
March 14, 2004, 08:46 AM
I have to agree that the dealer was not being ingnorant or overly critical. From the evidince we have, I feel that he was correct in not selling the shotgun to you and the other wep to your buddy.

I am going to toss an IF in here, we are certian that this is not the case, but the FFL has no way to confirm what the truth is.

IF you had bought the shotgun and ended up giving it to your nieghbor and he used it in a manner that was not legal, do you really think that FFL would not find him self in deep do-do.

Isn't that what Sen Craig had just spend a week arguing about, you know the law suits would start to fly. Even if found innocent, the FFL would likley be shut down due to the costs of defending himself.

Now, after denying you, your pal steps up and says he wants one, I can not fault the dealer at all in this scenario.

Was it wrong?, sure

Was it annoying?, you betcha

Would I have done the same as the dealer?, every single day of the week.

Unfortunately, law and liability have very little to do with each other in today's gun world

Sisco
March 14, 2004, 09:06 AM
A few years ago I was visiting relatives in the Ft. Worth area. Just to kill time one day I found a gunshop close to where I was and went to check it out. Turned out the owner was from my home town and we shot the breeze a while.
He had a real good price on a Ruger GP100 and I made the comment that since I was from out of state and couldn't buy it I might have my BIL come get it and give it to me for my birthday or something.
The shop owner looked me straight in the eye and said:

"I'm not talking to you anymore!"

I was about to apologize for offending him when he turned his back to me and started talking to his partner.

"You know, someone comes in here and legally buys a gun it ain't none of my business what he does with it when he gets home. He can sell it, throw it away or give it away, none of my business"

After which he turned back around and we went back to talking about stuff back at home.
:D

BTW: didn't get the GP, after taking the family to Six Flags and all the other touristy stuff I wondered if I had gas money to get back home.

Firethorn
March 14, 2004, 10:00 AM
But I think that they don't have any worries, seeing as how I have a valid handgun purchase permit for NE (not required to purchase, but it eliminates the hassle of purchase). That and a CCW permit from ND, where I'm currently stationed. Uncle Sam already has so much paperwork on me, that if the left hand talked to the right, I could get a Class-3 without additional investigation.

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