Identify double barrel pistol


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Ryanxia
March 17, 2013, 06:07 PM
Hi all, I've got a double barrel break open pistol I was hoping to get some info on. There's no maker/model info. The only markings are the works 'Cal 320' on the top of the barrel and some markings under the barrel I took a picture of.

Questions are;
What caliber is it? We figured .32 and tried to see if a .32S&W would fit but the round was too large (diameter wise). Even an empty casing without the bullet didn't fit.

Any info on it, country of origin, time period, etc?

Any rough value?

Also, it has rifled barrels and is definitely a center fire gun. Double trigger as well. The spring is pretty heavy duty, when the button is hit to break it open the barrels pop right up. There is a crown symbol on it which is why I leaned towards English made but a few friends have guessed asian and one person thought it might be mexican. Any info would be appreciated.

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rcmodel
March 17, 2013, 06:19 PM
http://www.gunauction.com/buy/11191773/guns-for-sale-curios-relics/pistol-curios-relics/belgium-la-brazilena-double-barrel-.32-cal-pistol-look

Sure looks like a Liege Belgian proof-mark though.

rc

Ryanxia
March 17, 2013, 06:26 PM
Interesting, thanks RC. Anyone else got any input on the proof marks?

rcmodel
March 17, 2013, 06:31 PM
http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/archives/proofmarks.pdf

http://www.slideshare.net/leblanko/belgian-all-proofmarks

rc

Ryanxia
March 17, 2013, 06:47 PM
So it definitely looks Belgian. Kind of strange though it has a proof mark that says was only used up until 1853 yet the earliest the controller's mark could be is 1927. Also looks to have the German Proof law (1891) mark but the way that description is worded it sounds like that's a black powder designation?

The auction RC listed said .32 caliber in the description but that doesn't sound right because like I said we couldn't get a .32 case in there (and it has an extractor so it's got to be smokeless right?)

rcmodel
March 17, 2013, 06:53 PM
it has an extractor so it's got to be smokeless right?) No.
Every black power caliber ever made would have had a rimmed case, and an extractor to get the fired cases out.

It is probably some obscure .32, possibly rim-fire even, and not .32 S&W.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.32_Rimfire

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://archive.heinessen.com/boards/k/img/0146/22/1360041423254.jpg&imgrefurl=http://archive.heinessen.com/k/?search_tripcode%3D!srMCyCxCQM%26task%3Dsearch2%26offset%3D120&h=340&w=500&sz=55&tbnid=2V21J4gi6gsPUM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=132&prev=/search%3Fq%3D.32%2Brimfire%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=.32+rimfire&usg=__5wkiv78BlH6--EDevL9f_nJYMTc=&docid=4GYEI7e_pQj38M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4zpGUZ6FO5TC9QSw94HoDw&sqi=2&ved=0CGMQ9QEwBg&dur=5656

rc

Ryanxia
March 17, 2013, 07:17 PM
I see. It's definitely center fire though.

Carl N. Brown
March 17, 2013, 07:44 PM
Some 19th century .32s used heeled bullets (like the .22 long rifle does today) the cases were the same diameter as the bullet; others like .32 S&W used bullet that fit inside the case (like the .38 special does) with the case larger in diameter than the bullet.

I believe the .32 rimfire and the centerfire .32 Colt were made with heeled bullets (the part of the bullet that fits in the case is smaller in diameter than the rest of the bullet which is the same diameter as the case).

.32 Colt bullet is .312 and the case neck is .313".
.32 S&W bullet is .312 and the case neck is .337".
.32 Colt is supposed to be based on the .320 Webley Bulldog cartridge and was more popular in Europe than the competing .32 S&W.

Ryanxia
March 17, 2013, 08:15 PM
Thanks a lot Carl. It must be the .320 Webley Bulldog since it says 'Cal 320'.
That makes sense too because the .32 S&W just barely doesn't fit.

I only saw the one auction that RC listed, wonder if that's accurate as to the value.

waidmann
March 17, 2013, 08:41 PM
The proofs appear to be in that post 1891 BP/Nitro era. I would bet on the .320 cartridge as well.

rcmodel
March 17, 2013, 09:09 PM
wonder if that's accurate as to the value. I would say so.

A gun you can't shoot because of obsolete ammo?
And one hardly anyone collects because of some obscure manufacturer or history?

It will never be worth as much as an old name brand maker in a common caliber that killed Mr. Howard or something.

No matter how nice it is otherwise.

rc

Jim K
March 17, 2013, 10:39 PM
Those pistols were common in Brazil and some parts of Argentina. They were usually sold where the white establishment prohibited the native peasants from owning guns holding more than two shots.*

The .320 is the old British .32 caliber, the same as our now obsolete .32 Short Colt.

Those guns are usually of so-so quality (some are junk) and in this country rarely bring more than a nominal price as a curio.

Look up "garrucha" on Google for more info than I can provide here.

*Let the record show that I didn't make any comparisons!

Jim

rcmodel
March 17, 2013, 11:01 PM
Jim K nailed it, much better then I did at first guess earlier.

Liston to what he said on this one, as usual.

It is what it is, which is what he said it is.

rc

Ryanxia
March 17, 2013, 11:22 PM
Thanks for the info guys. It's a cool wallhanger anyways.

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