Is this legal to do?


PDA






GlowinPontiac
March 17, 2013, 08:35 PM
I found a Carcano at a yard sale that has the barrel bent back around pointing at who is holding it. I posted a pic on a FB gun group to ID it.

A in state NRA instructor asked if I would go to the yard sale next time and buy it as he wants to buy it from me to use as a humorous wallhanger at his classes.

The gun is whole and would fire (and explode) if loaded.

I just want to make sure this isn't a straw sale or would make me an illegal firearms dealer.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/18/ba8atuhu.jpg
Sent from my C5120 using Tapatalk 2

If you enjoyed reading about "Is this legal to do?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Grassman
March 17, 2013, 08:41 PM
That's very Elmer Fudd and Bugs Bunny.

p2000sk
March 17, 2013, 08:42 PM
It might make an excellent candidate for a SBR project. (short barrel rifle)

Deus Machina
March 17, 2013, 08:43 PM
If you're not making profit off of it, you're not 'in the business'. Otherwise, I'm not personally sure of the technicalities. I would personally say no, because it's obviously not a functioning arm.

On a personal note, I'm not sure whether to be saddened or impressed that they did such a good job of bending it.

frankenstein406
March 17, 2013, 08:43 PM
poor gun, wonder if the action is salvageable or if bending it made it junk.

GlowinPontiac
March 17, 2013, 08:57 PM
Action looked and dry fired fine. Just the barrel was ruined. No clue why it was done the current owner bought it this way as a wallhanger.
No profit. Just a favor as the instructor is an hour drive away and does not want to risk the drive to find it already sold. I'm only a short way from the seller so its just a convinence thing.
I doubt its worth the money and effort to SBR an old Carcano!

Sent from my C5120 using Tapatalk 2

Airbrush Artist
March 17, 2013, 09:01 PM
Deleted

jamesbeat
March 17, 2013, 09:02 PM
Shame Lee Harvey Oswald didn't use that one :D

jon_in_wv
March 17, 2013, 09:07 PM
As long as he wasn't legally prohibited from purchasing it himself you will be fine.

rcmodel
March 17, 2013, 09:07 PM
because it's obviously not a functioning arm.The heck it isn't!!!

You find ammo that will fit in it and it will still function just perfectly fine to kill yourself with!!
It will not explode I betcha.
It will shoot you in the head with a high velocity rifle bullet!!!

With that siad.
There is no legal reason not to buy it.

But if you do?

Take it somewhere and have the bolt welded shut if you want to display it or use it in a class somewhere.

rc

Carl N. Brown
March 17, 2013, 09:11 PM
That could have been done to a "semi-sporterized" Carcano back in the day when the rifle cost less than the only ammo available: Norma of Sweden at $39.95 a box of twenty 160 gr RNSP (in late-1960 early-1970s $$). If the gun was seen as useless, the joke value may have been worth it to the perpetrator.

jamesbeat
March 17, 2013, 09:11 PM
There were some rifles in WWII (German I believe) with bent barrels for shooting round corners. They had mirrors on them for aiming.
They weren't bent anywhere near as much as this one though...

ETA: wikipedia link about these rifles
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krummlauf

Deus Machina
March 17, 2013, 09:30 PM
The 6.5 in a Carcano is a fairly long projectile.
That barrel has a relatively tight radius.
Since it isn't purposely mandrel-bent, there's a 99% chance that the interior of the barrel is crimped smaller than the .268" it's supposed to be.

I'll bet you my last dollar you'd be more likely to blow the bolt out the back before anything came out the muzzle.

Edit: This obviously doesn't mean it may not fit the legal description of 'functioning arm'. But it will only function once, if that.

jerkface11
March 17, 2013, 10:23 PM
I bet the bullet would fragment and it would be like a mini-shotgun hitting the top of your head.

-v-
March 17, 2013, 11:13 PM
As long as the friend you are getting this for is not barred from owning a firearm under the law, I do not think this qualifies as a straw purchase.

Personally, I think if fired, it'd blow itself up, with a potential to send some shards out the muzzle a the user. But, I think the exploding receiver would cause more damage!

GlowinPontiac
March 17, 2013, 11:23 PM
He's willing to show me his CCW so no worries about his legality.

If the rifle was free I would bury it in sandbags and fire it with a string just to see if the action could take the abuse and what if anything came out the muzzle.

Sent from my C5120 using Tapatalk 2

barnbwt
March 18, 2013, 12:56 AM
Take it somewhere and have the bolt welded shut if you want to display it or use it in a class somewhere.

Amen to that, RC. Proper demilling is the way to go here, just for safety's sake. Tied to a tree-stump or otherwise, you don't want nobody firing nothing in that heap ever again :eek:. I'm a thorough guy; I'd weld the bolt shut by burning through the receiver (so the bead can't be broken loose) in a hidden place and probably plug or perforate the chamber (so the barrel can't be reused for another "misadventure" piece).

Poor gun. I'd look to rebarrel it before demilling it, honestly :(

If the rifle was free I would bury it in sandbags and fire it with a string just to see if the action could take the abuse and what if anything came out the muzzle.

As an obviously non-firing replica, why? The bullet will most certainly come out; it will either make the curve with damage to the bullet (like the bent SMGs the Germans fielded in WWII) , or it will rupture the barrel (if the bend collapsed it). Firing the action in such a shape will add yet another unknown to its history, making it even less suitable for repair. At best, you can assume you've damged it. At worst, you clearly damage it. Why?

TCB

JohnKSa
March 18, 2013, 01:00 AM
My understanding is that a straw purchase must involve a sale by an FFL. If the person selling the rifle is not an FFL, it can't be a straw purchase.

Inebriated
March 18, 2013, 02:13 AM
I think straw purchases are when you buy a gun for someone you know is unable to legally purchase one themselves.

Either way, I want that rifle!

Frank Ettin
March 18, 2013, 02:32 AM
I think straw purchases are when you buy a gun for someone you know is unable to legally purchase one themselves.Nope. You are wrong. The subject of a straw purchase when transfer is done by an FFL has been discussed extensively in this Sticky (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=700331). Everyone please read that Sticky carefully, and let's not repeat in this thread the usual misinformation and uninformed opinions about what a straw purchase is.

...I just want to make sure this isn't a straw sale or would make me an illegal firearms dealer.Now to the OP's question.

First, what constitutes dealing in firearms was discussed extensively in this Sticky (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=699556). It's extremely unlikely that a single transaction would constitute dealing in firearms.

Second, a straw purchase in the view of the ATF involves a particular false statement on the the form 4473. So if everyone is a resident of the same State, and if under the laws of that State a firearm may be transferred privately between or among residents of that State, the transaction would not need to go through a dealer. Therefore, since no 4473 would need to be completed, the question is moot as far as ATF would be concerned.

Third, let's be clear that even though the rifle is inoperative, it's still a firearm and subject to applicable firearm law. It includes the frame, and that is the firearm in the eyes of the law.

Fourth, even if a straw purchase, as defined by ATF, is not an issue in a private transfer, it would still be illegal to transfer a gun to someone who the transferor knows, or has reason to believe, is a prohibited person.

Shadow 7D
March 18, 2013, 02:50 AM
You could however Demil it, you can make a cut through the bottom of the chamber, spike the barrel, then weld the barrel to the receiver ring, pull the firing pin, weld up the bolt face, then tack weld a large goob on the bolt release so it's captive...

done correctly it's completely in-op but looks 100%

CoRoMo
March 18, 2013, 04:53 PM
The stock could use some refinishing work and the metal certainly needs all the rust cleaned up.

If you enjoyed reading about "Is this legal to do?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!