Big Folder vs Short Fixed Blade


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Tired_and_hungry
March 17, 2013, 10:36 PM
G'day All,

I will be visiting a rural part of Indonesia on business and according to a friend who lives in the area, the cops generally turn a blind eye towards the carrying of knives because most of the people who live there are blue collar workers or farm labourers who use blades in their daily work.

With that in mind and knowing full well that bringing along my CZ-75 for self protection is out of the question, which would make a better self defense tool?

A large folder like the Cold Steel Ti-Lite or Espada?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF_EvfvEA4Q

OR........

A small fixed blade like the Boker Rampage?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEMA3skmpHg

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JShirley
March 18, 2013, 09:34 AM
There are some very large, sturdy folders I'd choose over a small fixed blade. The Manix 2 XL is one of the best. I carried one for several months in Afghanistan, and used it hard.

John

conw
March 18, 2013, 01:14 PM
At 4 3/4" blade that is not a very small fixed knife.

If I wanted to, I could carry a bigger folder or a bigger fixed blade than the knife I choose: a small fixed blade, the clinch pick. I'd be fine carrying the small TDI knife too though. My training has led me to the conclusion that the ability to access the knife from a cramped, disadvantaged position, plus ability to "fight using a knife" rather than "knife fight", make it the ideal choice.

Something seldom discussed about knife length is that past a certain point, depending on carry set-up, a fixed-blade becomes harder to access the bigger it is. If you have a 6" blade vs a 3" blade you have to move your hand, and possibly your elbow depending on carry set-up, an additional 3". That is significant in terms of being able to consistently draw it in a bad situation. Without being too graphic, in cramped situations the ability to USE a knife can also be limited if it is bigger than a certain size (that size being dependent on how cramped the situation, what your skills are, etc) - again it comes down to elbow movement required to execute a fundamental movement (thrust, stab, slice, whatever) which is correlated closely to the blade length.

JShirley
March 18, 2013, 05:25 PM
Good point. The Manix 2 XL is big enough to quickly make a difference, while still being shorter than knives Americans usually call fighters.

glistam
March 18, 2013, 05:40 PM
Very good post, conw. I was thinking about that idea just yesterday when a female friend (who carries a sgian-dubh) was telling me about a date that went south while still in the guy's car. Talk about limited mobility. Ultimately it didn't come to that for her, but made me think.

Getting to the OP's choices, I own a Ti-Lite and while they have their appeal and perks, it's a very slender blade. They look badass and open very reliably, but I'm always afraid I will break mine.

oldbear
March 18, 2013, 05:44 PM
the cops generally turn a blind eye towards the carrying of knives because most of the people who live there are blue collar workers or farm labourers who use blades in their daily work.

Remember either of the folders pictured are clearly weapons. If i wanted to fit in I would find out what most of the locals carried,( I'll bet it's a fixed blade of some sort.) and get something as close to possible to what ever was common in the area.

Next to a firearm, I feel that a cane is the best weapon (non-weapon) one can have.

CWL
March 18, 2013, 08:50 PM
Rural Indonesia?

If you get into trouble, you may likely be facing a golok or other large bladed workknife. Compared to big blades, most folders will be small and slow to deploy.

You may want to ask your friend to get you a fixed blade for you to carry when you arrrive. If you are carrying a local's work blade during your time there, you have the plausibility that the blade was only intended for outdoors use and you that had no choice but use it for SD.

If you are involved in a SD situation and you use some sort of fancy import, it may not look well for you in the local courts. Don't expect local police or courts to be fair, do expect local BGs & thugs to be relatives of the Judge, police or Village Eldars.

VA27
March 19, 2013, 01:07 AM
Rural Indonesia?

If you get into trouble, you may likely be facing a golok or other large bladed workknife. Compared to big blades, most folders will be small and slow to deploy.

You may want to ask your friend to get you a fixed blade for you to carry when you arrrive. If you are carrying a local's work blade during your time there, you have the plausibility that the blade was only intended for outdoors use and you that had no choice but use it for SD.

If you are involved in a SD situation and you use some sort of fancy import, it may not look well for you in the local courts. Don't expect local police or courts to be fair, do expect local BGs & thugs to be relatives of the Judge, police or Village Eldars.

^^^This^^^ Carry what the locals carry.

CA Raider
March 19, 2013, 01:55 AM
my realistic answer is that the very last thing i would ever do is to get into a knife fight with those guys in Indonesia. they have been carrying knives since they were kids. while undoubtedly their experience varies a lot from one person to the next, the good ones would be lethal with any kind of knife or machete.

stay away from trouble spots and isolated areas.
smile a lot and do people some favors.
or hire a local guy as a bodyguard - assuming he's trustworthy. :-)

CA R

lemaymiami
March 19, 2013, 08:01 PM
I've got to go with that last poster.... As I read the various blade suggestions I found myself thinking of several videos I've seen of folks from that area with blades..... What really caught my attention was skinny little guys who were faster with a blade than anyone I've ever seen (and I haven't lead a sheltered life...) and they are an absolute "blade culture".

If it were me (and I haven't been in that part of the world since I left Vietnam in 1971,,,,) I'd concentrate on being a very good visitor who carried a minimum of possessions and never showed any signs of wealth at all.... If I carried a blade at all it would be something very small and ordinary --but as sharp as possible. As I've gotten older my taste for adventure has diminished.....

conw
March 19, 2013, 09:24 PM
I think it's a bit of a leap to reason that because lots of people are supposedly proficient with knives, one should not carry a knife since one is not likely to be as proficient with a knife as those fellows.

Knife defense is not the same as self-defense against a knife.

If you are concerned about defending against a knife check out Red Zone Knife Defense (Jerry Wetzel):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiNjFlfIQXI
http://www.crazymonkeydefense.com/red-zone-knife-defense/
(Can't find links to buy DVDs for some reason)

STAB (Karl Tanswell) also looks promising (some free material below)

http://www.lowtechcombat.com/2011/03/stab-knife-defense-system-video.html

Note how knife defense does not entail utilizing your own knife.

If you want to get good at that I recommend Southnarc's material (get the Reverse Edge Methods 2 DVD, it covers much much more than just offensive knife usage) or, for that matter, the old "Put Em Down Take Em Out," by Don Pentecost supposedly inspired by Folsom prison (probably not but it's still viable). http://www.scribd.com/doc/3650175/Put-Em-Down-Take-Em-Out-Knife-Fighting-Techniques-from-Folsom-Prisonwwwgrabtheinfotorrent-illegal-Collection-of

Saying you shouldn't carry a knife for defensive use in Southeast Asia is like saying you shouldn't rely on boxing in Brooklyn 'cause that's where Tyson is from. Keep your awareness up, avoid conflict, and rely on effective methods if you need to; even if you can't be the absolute best at those methods, they are still effective.

hso
March 19, 2013, 10:43 PM
Carry what the locals carry since you're going to be in a rural area. You should be able to pick up something at the market before you're there too long. Look at options here http://www.valiantco.com/indexA.html in the way of goloks or get a western made golok and test it while there.

The best approach is to make friends wherever you go so they can help keep you out of trouble.

Ogreon
March 20, 2013, 02:19 AM
I'd get a local knife simply because it's a cool excuse the get a new knife. It'll be a fun souvenir to show off to your friends back home.

Or you could do what I do and stay home all the time. Of course, I don't have a lot of choice. Skip what I do do and do what I would do if I could do instead.

lemaymiami
March 20, 2013, 02:49 PM
Every now and then folks jump to conclusions.... Nothing in my last post should be read to imply that I wouldn't be into defending against any form of attack. In short I'd do everything possible to avoid the situation in the first place but if necessary.... A small very sharp blade can do terrible damage at close quarters -particularly if it's not seen as a threat before things get ugly. That shouldn't imply that I'd be untouched, matter of fact surviving a close quarters blade attack means staying out of that situation as far as I'm concerned..... If the other fellow survived I'm betting he'd agree.

conw
March 20, 2013, 04:14 PM
my realistic answer is that the very last thing i would ever do is to get into a knife fight with those guys in Indonesia. they have been carrying knives since they were kids. while undoubtedly their experience varies a lot from one person to the next, the good ones would be lethal with any kind of knife or machete.

stay away from trouble spots and isolated areas.
smile a lot and do people some favors.
or hire a local guy as a bodyguard - assuming he's trustworthy. :-)

I've got to go with that last poster.... As I read the various blade suggestions I found myself thinking of several videos I've seen of folks from that area with blades..... What really caught my attention was skinny little guys who were faster with a blade than anyone I've ever seen (and I haven't lead a sheltered life...) and they are an absolute "blade culture".


Put simply, the last thing I would do if I can help it is get into any fight ever, particularly a knife fight, and I advise others to adopt this perspective; if the people who take this advice go to Indonesia or some other place should still be doing everything possible to avoid a fight, up to and including a knife fight. If you already have zero desire to be in a "knife fight", and fully wish to avoid one, it's not as if you can have less than zero desire and somehow more fully wish to avoid one, just because you are in a particular locale.

That said, we train for contingencies and if you are attacked by someone with a knife, it's unlikely (not impossible) that your own knife is going to come in handy. This is where knife defense training is a good idea.

If you are overwhelmed by a bigger attacker who has the drop on you, or multiple attackers, it might be good to have a knife.

I just don't see how anything changes in Indonesia or anywhere else, except, again, having more of a need for knife defense... which is different from knife fighting. The whole idea of a knife fight, to me, is a misnomer. It makes all the difference in the world whether you are defending against a knife, or using a knife to defend against an attack that may or may not include a knife (but probably doesn't).

Not trying to rile you up lemaymiami, just being more specific about where I took some issue with ideas posted in this thread. Nothing personal at all with either of you guys.

JShirley
March 20, 2013, 06:12 PM
Let me follow up on those thoughts.

Defensively, the place of the knife is when you've been suddenly overwhelmed at close range, and the threat is too close to notice you producing the knife and employing it against him in an injurious manner.

If you're approached by someone brandishing a knife, the counter is anything that lets you deliver force without closing to contact distance. Rocks have historically killed a lot of people. Sticks work well, and are everywhere. Firearms are nearly ideal, because they deliver lots of force over quite a bit of distance, and are easy to learn to use, compared to most other weapons.

John

Fred Fuller
March 20, 2013, 11:14 PM
Leslie Buck (http://www.tacticalarts.com/) was one of the presenters at Polite Society 2012, and I'd say he's fairly well versed in blade use in that part of the world. One thing he pointed out - and offered examples of to the class - was the potentially small size of blades that might be employed there. He showed us several blades adapted from the steel spurs used in cockfighting in that part of the world, blades that could easily be concealed between the fingers (http://kaligear.com/2009/04/cockspurs-and-poison.html).

Be mindful...

Okiegunner
March 21, 2013, 05:55 PM
Strictly for close quarters self defense, when absolutely all other options have failed (read...run like hell).

Spyderco "Civilian". Mean, nasty, extremely sharp!!

JShirley
March 21, 2013, 06:54 PM
Yes, it is, but the Civilian is ONLY good for last-ditch self-defense. If I only had one knife I'd like it to be good for more than one thing.

bubba in ca
March 21, 2013, 09:55 PM
Bring your Swiss Army knife in your hold luggage and buy a $6 machete in the first hardware store you come to.

You can probably also pick up a 4 to 6 inch knife there without too much searching.

Deltaboy
March 21, 2013, 11:13 PM
Bring your Swiss Army knife in your hold luggage and buy a $6 machete in the first hardware store you come to.

You can probably also pick up a 4 to 6 inch knife there without too much searching.
Add a walking stick or cane.

CA Raider
March 22, 2013, 02:05 AM
deltaboy is right. that's also what i do overseas.
if i'm in an area where people carry knives or machetes as common weapons, i always make sure i have a stick (rattan) that's about 6 inches longer than their weapon. it always pays to have a weapon that has a longer effective range than your enemy :-)

CA R

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