This Will Make Your Blood Boil!


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ATBackPackin
March 19, 2013, 01:04 PM
The young man in the photo is the 11-yr-old son of Shawn Moore. The gun is a .22 rifle, a copy of the AR-15, but a 22 caliber. The photo was posted on Facebook by a proud father. That Facebook posting apparently triggered an anonymous call to New Jersey’s Department of Youth and Family Services (DYFS). On Friday night, March 15th, two representatives from the state’s social services office (along with four local police officers) came to the Moore home and demanded to see the family’s firearms.

Story (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/03/19/dad-this-picture-of-my-son-holding-a-gun-triggered-a-visit-from-nj-police-family-services/)


Thankfully the father knew his rights. I cannot imagine how angry I would be if this happened to me. Things have gone way too far and that is all I will say for now.

Shawn

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returningfire
March 19, 2013, 01:20 PM
What a damn country.

SilentStalker
March 19, 2013, 01:21 PM
Yeah, I seen that yesterday on another forum I am a member of. Too bad you couldn't sue over some stupid junk like that. In case many of you don't know, this really isn't a free country, at least not anymore.

Mayvik
March 19, 2013, 01:22 PM
They can stop by a demand a Ferrari too...doesn't mean they are going to get one. So sorry, we're busy, try again when you have a warrant.

BBQJOE
March 19, 2013, 01:24 PM
People shouldn't have to worry about these things, but in today's times, people are getting pretty stupid about what they post on FB and youtube.
Anyone can and will read whatever they want into any post anywhere.

Was it wrong to post a child with a firearm?
No.
Did he open himself up for problems? I'd say yes.

SharpsDressedMan
March 19, 2013, 01:34 PM
I think some kind of procedural complaint could be lodged against the DYFS girl, as refusing to ID' herself is probably violating departmental procedure, and possibly the law. Asking an agent to identify themselves is one of the first things in establishing that you have any kind of bona fide reason for being there. Without credentials, the people on your doorstep may as well be robbers or assailants on a ruse.

Blue Line
March 19, 2013, 01:37 PM
I'd tighten up my privacy controls too, looks like one of thier Facebook friends ain't really a friend.

Billy Shears
March 19, 2013, 01:40 PM
People shouldn't have to worry about these things, but in today's times, people are getting pretty stupid about what they post on FB and youtube.
Anyone can and will read whatever they want into any post anywhere.

Was it wrong to post a child with a firearm?
No.
Did he open himself up for problems? I'd say yes.
Sorry, but this is the wrong way to look at it. Dead wrong. Generations of American youths were introduced to firearms at a young age and taught to shoot by their parents or grandparents. My dad bought me my first rifle, a .22 Browning T bolt, when I was five. Of course, I was only allowed to handle it when he was around, but it was "mine." I had my first BB gun not long after that, and I was allowed to roam the neighborhood with it. This was a normal part of growing up in this country. There is nothing wrong with this.

The whole attitude that "well he opened himself up to this," smacks of defeatism, and of yielding the argument to the antis that guns aren't appropriate for small children, even with strict and responsible adult supervision.

Well, sorry, but I for one will not yield that point. Guns are appropriate for young shooters, when responsibly supervised. Moreover, it's necessary to introduce young shooters to the sport, inculcate enthusiasm for shooting sports into them, and get them used to living with and being responsible around guns, so that they can become responsible adults who will safeguard their rights under the second amendment, and feel a duty to do so.

When stories like this come along, we need to push back hard. They need to think it's raining hammers. That kind of hard. It's the only way we'll ever retake the culture and stop the trend the antis have been promoting for decades to marginalize gun owners and reduce us to a fringe element, regarded with suspicion by the mainstream of society. For my money, that means not just publicizing it when overzealous government flunkies exceed their authority like this, but holding them accountable, and suing if there's ground for every abuse that rises to a sufficient level.

ClickClickD'oh
March 19, 2013, 02:03 PM
Lol, and he's a NRA Instructor with his lawyer on the phone. They might want to never come back..

Doc Samson
March 19, 2013, 02:10 PM
Agreed! There was nothing in that picture to suggest ANY type of abuse, neglect, or misconduct as a parent. Dad responded very appropriately...

12many
March 19, 2013, 02:31 PM
that is the problem with many people in the gov. (and society in general) There is no respect for other peoples rights and apparently not enough intellegence to know better. Trouble is the gov. people act as if they have authority and appear to have authority to do these things. Plus, there are no ramifications or consequences for bad behavior.

It is getting more and more like the book 1984. Unacceptable thoughts or actions that violate the 'moral rules' or allowable thoughts and armed men in armor show up at the door. It is scary to see the extent to which certain people in government use the police and their intimidation (armed with weapons) to enforce their societal preferences (no kids with guns pictures), when no law has been broken. This reflects badly on the police, who have a tough job dealing with read bad people, but are often now used as pawns to enforce the liberal agenda. This is why rural sherrifs and police are speaking out against gun bans because they are tired of being tasked with this BS.

armoredman
March 19, 2013, 02:40 PM
Call CPS on me, now.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/CZ%20posters/Rickyand452Scout.jpg

My son on the Christmas morning that he received his first rifle, a CZ 452 Scout .22lr. It is stored in my safe, though he keeps the range bag in his room. Oh wait, that's probably not juicy enough...

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/Rickys%20range%20day/Ricky%20range%2012%209%2011/RickySAvz58556.jpg

There he is, eleven years old, firing a 5.56mm SA vz-58 on the range, real Modern Sporting Rifle, real ammo, real targets, real safety, and he really had a blast, pun intended.

Bring 'em on. Good on that NJ dad for knowing his rights, and standing up for them.

12many
March 19, 2013, 02:45 PM
when I was younger it was considrered bad parenting if you did NOT teach your kids about guns, gun safety, and how to use them properly.

Bubbles
March 19, 2013, 03:02 PM
In my case no one called Child Services, we just made the parenting failblog:
http://failblog.org/2011/12/14/crazy-parenting-fails-parenting-fails-dont-forget-to-burn-the-body/

sansone
March 19, 2013, 03:13 PM
when I was younger it was considrered bad parenting if you did NOT teach your kids about guns, gun safety, and how to use them properly.
^^ this ^^

thunder173
March 19, 2013, 03:18 PM
Sounds like a typical idiot reaction from some local NJ Popo's and knee jerk tactics common in the Trenton and Burlington County area. Left Jersey in 1991. Never looked back.

ATBackPackin
March 19, 2013, 03:55 PM
The article did state that the father said the police were professional and were only there at the request of DYFS. My biggest problem is with her absolute refusal to show her credentials and the running away when the father tried to take her picture. Why would a government agent act like that???

mdauben
March 19, 2013, 04:36 PM
The article did state that the father said the police were professional and were only there at the request of DYFS. My biggest problem is with her absolute refusal to show her credentials and the running away when the father tried to take her picture. Why would a government agent act like that???

Because she knew she had no authority or legal justification for what she was doing and did not want to give him evidence that could come back and be used against her?

Twmaster
March 19, 2013, 04:37 PM
Absolutely sickening.

What would the results have been if the police and that social worker had managed to get into the safe??

I'm sick of the misuse of power by these petty dictators.

--
Mike

When I grow up I want to be an anti-social worker.

InkEd
March 19, 2013, 05:32 PM
I would not have even let them in the door.

12many
March 19, 2013, 05:38 PM
It is not clear to me the extent to which the police were supporting the CW worker. They sure were not there to defend the dad and they were there in support of and at the reqeust of the CW worker. My problem is when police aid or are part of the process. They are armed and can take a person to jail at any time, even if the charges are later dropped. It also gets all the neighbors looking when armed police and their lights flashing are at your door.

Why does some nut job from CW services with a social agenda get to have 4 police show up with her?

Police need to be responsible and be aware of the position they are being put in by the politicians and other people in governemnt who want to use the police force to control behavior, even when that behavior is not breaking any laws or when the police are used to violate constituational rights, such as may be the case as a result of gun bans.

A bit off topic, but in jurisdications where gun bans (washington DC, Chicago) were in existance, the government passed laws in violation of the 2nd amendment and used armed police force to enfoce unconstitutional restrictions on the people including arrest and incarceration.

What should have occured is that the police should have inquired about the offense by the parent against the child and upon learning that the offense was the picture, should have not assisted the CW worker in harrasing that man. If the man asked the lady to leave, the police should have assisted in removing the CW worker from the property.

In this situation the police know they are in the wrong which is why they will not take press contact or any statements. You know if they did something good or were in the right they would want to be in front of the camera and talking to the press.

HOOfan_1
March 19, 2013, 06:25 PM
In my case no one called Child Services, we just made the parenting failblog:
http://failblog.org/2011/12/14/crazy-parenting-fails-parenting-fails-dont-forget-to-burn-the-body/

Wonder if the parents of all of the Olympic medalists in shooting sports made the fail blog.

BBQJOE
March 19, 2013, 06:33 PM
I'm not saying it is wrong to teach the young to shoot and respect firearms by any means, I'm all for it.
I'm all for anyone owning any type of firearm they want.
I don't think we should back down on anything concerning any of our rights,
But would you, right now, publish a list of every firearm you own, including serial numbers in a post on facebook?

Given the current temperature of society right now, I don't believe that would be a smart thing to do.

Given the fact that a child recently went into a school and shot up a bunch of children, I personally don't think I'd be blasting the internet with a picture of my kid holding and/or shooting an evil black gun. It just doesn't seem like a brilliant idea, unless you're looking to catch some flak, and get your kid on some not allowed to go to school list.

Yeah it's not right, but the facts, and the reactions right now speak for themselves.

texgunner
March 19, 2013, 06:39 PM
Because she knew she had no authority or legal justification for what she was doing and did not want to give him evidence that could come back and be used against her?
That's probably the case. She knew what she was doing was wrong. Sickening, just sickening.

Centurian22
March 19, 2013, 06:41 PM
Blood boiling is right! Spreading the word on this one. Good on him for knowing and standing up for his rights. 12many: well said!

BBQJOE
March 19, 2013, 06:44 PM
I also need to add, that I'm glad he knew his rights, because we all know these people were wrong.
Had he let them in, this probably would've turned into an even uglier story.

cavman
March 19, 2013, 07:20 PM
http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/familys-home-raided-over-facebook-photo-of-childs-rifle.html

Facebook Post of son with .22 rifle gets child services then cops called to enter and inspect the home.

I found this particularly disturbing.

DsbJax
March 19, 2013, 07:31 PM
Way more disturbing the family services moron demanding he open the gun safe. But "it's for the children" so who cares about that whole bill of rights.

bushmaster1313
March 19, 2013, 08:48 PM
Even though your son appears to be a Lefty,
I have great confidence that he will grow up knowing right from wrong



http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/Rickys%20range%20day/Ricky%20range%2012%209%2011/RickySAvz58556.jpg

There he is, eleven years old, firing a 5.56mm SA vz-58 on the range, real Modern Sporting Rifle, real ammo, real targets, real safety, and he really had a blast, pun intended.

ngnrd
March 19, 2013, 09:20 PM
... I personally don't think I'd be blasting the internet with a picture of my kid holding and/or shooting an evil black gun. It just doesn't seem like a brilliant idea, unless you're looking to catch some flak, and get your kid on some not allowed to go to school list.

Yeah it's not right, but the facts, and the reactions right now speak for themselves.
The more you try to hide something, the more certain people will think you "know it's wrong". The more that people see something, the more normal it becomes.

I say, we need to post more pictures of people (men, women, and kids) being responsible with guns. Society needs to see that this behavior is normal and safe, not something unusual and dangerous.

For pete's sake, I got my hunter education certificate in high school. The whole class went to the range to show competency with 22's and shotguns before we passed. And, at the tender age of 13, I regularly went camping in the wilderness without adults, hunting rabbits and grouse with a 22 rifle.

People today should be embarrassed to think that children can't be responsible. Just because they are bad parents doesn't mean that everybody else is, too. I think they call that "projecting".

Certaindeaf
March 19, 2013, 09:22 PM
I guess they haven't been to Somalia.. every 11 year old over there totes an AK.

BBQJOE
March 19, 2013, 09:39 PM
The more you try to hide something, the more certain people will think you "know it's wrong". The more that people see something, the more normal it becomes.

I say, we need to post more pictures of people (men, women, and kids) being responsible with guns. Society needs to see that this behavior is normal and safe, not something unusual and dangerous.

For pete's sake, I got my hunter education certificate in high school. The whole class went to the range to show competency with 22's and shotguns before we passed. And, at the tender age of 13, I regularly went camping in the wilderness without adults, hunting rabbits and grouse with a 22 rifle.

People today should be embarrassed to think that children can't be responsible. Just because they are bad parents doesn't mean that everybody else is, too. I think they call that "projecting".

Everything you say is true.

I just believe there are areas where we need to stand up and be strong, and some areas where it's best to keep a low profile, for right now.
If someone had posted pics of his kid with a look-a-like "assault" rifle the day after the recent shooting, he would have been lambasted off the planet no matter how innocent or responsible the kid may be.
As much as one might think it is showing the world that kids handle guns all the time safely, to others it is showing them how kids are routinely able to handle and have some sort of access to guns.
These people who are freaking out over this stuff, are the same people that are causing us problems right now.
To ME, it looks like rubbing salt in the wounds, not applying healing medicine.

We need to apply common sense, where there is none, and tact where we possibly can.
We are treading on dangerously thin ice.

jerkface11
March 19, 2013, 09:49 PM
Sorry but my closet isn't big enough to stay in.

Creature
March 19, 2013, 09:49 PM
The more you try to hide something, the more certain people will think you "know it's wrong". The more that people see something, the more normal it becomes.

I say, we need to post more pictures of people (men, women, and kids) being responsible with guns. Society needs to see that this behavior is normal and safe, not something unusual and dangerous.

I agree. Whole heartedly. Firearms in general have been stigmatized long enough. That needs to change.

BBQJOE
March 19, 2013, 09:57 PM
Sorry but my closet isn't big enough to stay in.
Well then, come out of your closet with firearms blazing. Ram your rifle down the throats of those who threaten to take it away. Post pictures of yourself and your family on facebook, give them your address for pete's sake.
See where that gets us and you.

We need to be strong and vigilant, not facebook stupid.

jerkface11
March 19, 2013, 09:58 PM
You can hide in the fear that someone will know find put you own guns if you want. I have nothing to be ashamed of.

GlowinPontiac
March 19, 2013, 10:11 PM
You can’t be prosecuted for making an allegation of child abuse –even if it’s false

That's scary. So anyone can get mad at someone and have their house raided as many times as they want with no consequences?

BBQJOE
March 19, 2013, 10:14 PM
I have nothing to be ashamed of.
Me neither.
I just refuse to give the opposition ammo to use against me.

hogshead
March 19, 2013, 10:15 PM
While some of you may not like FB I am posting this to FB with the advice that everyone contact the Social services office and the pd where this occured. Bet they get tired of answering the phone.

Yo Mama
March 19, 2013, 10:20 PM
The article did state that the father said the police were professional and were only there at the request of DYFS. My biggest problem is with her absolute refusal to show her credentials and the running away when the father tried to take her picture. Why would a government agent act like that???


I work as a contractor for CPS. The Police going with is standard when requested, but 4? No way.

Also, legally in many states DYFS are not allowed to be photographed or recorded.

That's scary. So anyone can get mad at someone and have their house raided as many times as they want with no consequences?

It is scary. But you have a child die, and CPS is put on the cross. Every other parent suffers.

The solution many have put forth is to make CPS records public. That way they don't need to make rash decisions to defend themselves from limitless possiblities. You have privacy issues with this, which is the reason it hasn't happened.

hogshead
March 19, 2013, 10:26 PM
Obtw here is the pd
# Address: 303 Harding Hwy, Carneys Point Township, NJ 08069
Phone:(856) 299-0070
here is the contact info for the dss
NJ Department of Human Services
Capital Place One
222 South Warren Street
P.O. Box 700
Trenton, NJ 08625-0700
609-292-3717
Give them a call Im sure they would love to hear from us.

Prophet
March 19, 2013, 10:31 PM
I meant to post this last night after ColionNoir posted it on his FB page. Definitely killed off a few brain cells when I first read it. This is why it pays to know your rights.

hogshead
March 19, 2013, 10:39 PM
I have an ex wife who works for dss. The whole office thinks that they are above the law. Talking about a nasty divorce. Needless to say I have no affection for the baby grabbers. I'm sure that there is a need for them but feel 80% of the time they cause more problems than they fix.

HorseSoldier
March 19, 2013, 10:45 PM
We probably should keep in mind that we don't know the details of the anonymous complaint. The fact that they rolled with four officers suggests to me that while one interpretation is that the case workers overreacted, another is that someone really piled on the drama in that complaint.

Which does not excuse the refusal to provide name and credentials, however. That strikes me as wildly unprofessional.

Yo Mama
March 19, 2013, 10:47 PM
The article did state that the father said the police were professional and were only there at the request of DYFS. My biggest problem is with her absolute refusal to show her credentials and the running away when the father tried to take her picture. Why would a government agent act like that???


I work as a contractor for CPS. The Police going with is standard when requested, but 4? No way.

Also, legally in many states DYFS are not allowed to be photographed or recorded.

That's scary. So anyone can get mad at someone and have their house raided as many times as they want with no consequences?

It is scary. But you have a child die, and CPS is put on the cross. Every other parent suffers.

The solution many have put forth is to make CPS records public. That way they don't need to make rash decisions to defend themselves from limitless possiblities. You have privacy issues with this, which is the reason it hasn't happened.

BTW, there are statistics showing child deaths are on the rise, while CPS is involved. http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/20121113arizona-cps-abuse-deaths-watch-rise.html

I have an ex wife who works for dss. The whole office thinks that they are above the law. Talking about a nasty divorce. Needless to say I have no affection for the baby grabbers. I'm sure that there is a need for them but feel 80% of the time they cause more problems than they fix.

Please see my post above for why this happens. There is a huge problem in the US with the way our Child Welfare system is set up. Don't even get me started on the lack of preventative services leading to increased child removals with this being the only option left to a worker who doesn't want to remove.

Also, they are not all bad people, many are well educated and can tell that guns dont equal safety risk.

PBR Streetgang
March 19, 2013, 11:08 PM
I was born and grew up in NJ. At ten years of age my parents bought me my first shotgun. That gun lived in the closet in my room for many years.

Almost all the other boys I grew up with had shotguns and we hunted with our fathers until we were old enough to hunt by ourselves at 14.

Many friendships were strengthened on our days in the field and I remember no accidents.

Of 20 something boys, none were ever arrested and only one committed suicide after coming back from Viet Nam and was dying from the results of Agent Orange.

Maybe we should elect more hunters to represent us!!!!!!!

RetiredUSNChief
March 19, 2013, 11:09 PM
Please note that the boy is properly holding his rifle so as not to sweep a crowd and that he doesn't have his trigger finger in the trigger guard at the same time.

Unlike Diane Feinstein in one of her famous pictures, holding an "assault weapon" with her finger on the trigger and sweeping the crowd of her supporters standing next to her.

:D


Here's a good one...how well do you suppose things would go over if some of us with grown kids, possibly even serving in the military or well into raising their own families, were to post pictures of them when they were about 10 or so holding guns?

Imagine the bad rep the DYFS would get showing up at your door with the police demanding you show them all your firearms or they'll take away your kids who are in their 30's or 40's, serving as police officers, servicemembers, or what-not?

People could flood the media with DYFS responses by "baiting" them with hundreds of such postings.

:evil:


The problem is that any DYFS, DSS, or whatever your particular state agency is known by, will absolutely NOT be held to task for such behavior in any official or public way. The ONLY way this would ever happen would be in a law suit won against them...and the law suits they lose tend to be kept very low key...or avoided entirely.

They will NOT admit they were wrong EVER.

Texan Scott
March 20, 2013, 12:41 AM
From the earliest days of my military service, I was encouraged by immediate superiors in my line of work (who I happen to believe were correct) NEVER to put identifiable photos of myself or any member of my family in the papers or online. Better that way for all kinds of reasons.

Elkins45
March 20, 2013, 12:55 AM
A phrase I've never said: "Gosh, I regret not having a Facebook page."

mastiffhound
March 20, 2013, 01:12 AM
This man did nothing wrong, and the DYFS agent was wrong. Some of them are just as bad as the worthless foster parents I had. I'd rather not, but let me enlighten you on what the Department of Youth and Family Services is like for the children.

Myself and my brothers had bad parents, addicts to be exact. We were taken by the children services board a few times, the last time was permanent. Want to know the worst part? We were abused worse by our "foster parents" than our real parents. We're talking hospital stays gentlemen, numerous ones. Permanent scars. Things were done to us that would be considered war crimes. Sleep deprivation, beatings with belts, branches, 2x4s, put through walls and worse things none of us will even talk about to this day. All the time that these things happened, amazingly, we wanted to go home to our junky parents who were some how less abusive.

Later in our young lives we found homes that had great foster parents but not for many years (we were taken when we were 4 and younger). I even put a few ex-foster parents in prison by testifying when I was in my teens. Funny thing, the guy who seemed so huge when I was 8 to 10 years old was scared of me because now I was bigger than him.

The man I call my father taught me how to shoot. He always introduced me as his son. He treated me with respect. He is my dad. My first day living with him we went out for a walk so he could talk to me and law down the rules. The next day we went out back(living in the country is so nice) and he started teaching me to shoot. Two weeks later I got a copy of the key to gun safe after he was confident with my mental state, safety, and shooting skills. We have so many pics of us shooting, going hunting, reloading, and handling firearms that now days it would be looked on as bad. I wouldn't be the man I am today if it wasn't for him.

I've done the same with my niece and nephew. This thing about teaching kids to safely handle firearms isn't child abuse or neglect. I know what both of those truly are. I think that it's more like teaching them about respect. That is one lesson that many of the youth of today could stand to learn. The "thought and feeling police" need to butt out. The kids that are taught respect and safety aren't the ones that shoot up schools. It's the kids that have parents that coddle them and submit to these kids every whim and want that do these horrible atrocities.

This guy did nothing wrong. Just as the man I call Dad did nothing wrong. This makes me sick, the person that called DYFS should be ashamed. I'm sure that some other child in a real abusive or neglectful situation needs help. Screwing with these people is just easier than going into some roach infested apartment filled with needle junkies. Sorry for the long post guys, this kind of stuff just makes me angry.

Twmaster
March 20, 2013, 01:12 AM
A phrase I've never said: "Gosh, I regret not having a Facebook page."
This. I do not have a FarceBook account. Never will either. Too many busy-bodies with nothing better to do but stick their ugly noses where they don't need to be.

coloradokevin
March 20, 2013, 02:51 AM
Social workers are out of control in this country, and the "for the children" stuff has gone way too far. We've had social workers in my jurisdiction attempt to force us to take action against gun owners. Fortunately, social workers have pretty much no authority, and don't tell me how to do my job.

I once had a social worker request a child "welfare check" because the kid had told a teacher at school that his father kept guns in the house. I was dispatched to this address with a request of finding out if the father actually had guns, and then calling the social worker back with a disposition. Fortunately, before I really got pissy on the radio, my pro-gun sergeant told our dispatcher to explain the 2nd Amendment to the social worker, and stated that we wouldn't be responding.

In another instance like this I was dispatched to a house on a similar complaint about the kid having unsupervised access to a pellet gun (a 14 or 15 year old, if I recall correctly). We were told that no illegal activity was being reported, and the complaint centered only around the fact that the kid supposedly kept the pellet gun in his room, or so the original complainant told our social worker after she overheard this kid talking to another kid about it at school. That night I wasn't working for someone who was as pro-gun, and we were sent to the call despite our belly-aching about its stupidity. So, I pretty much walked up to the door and told the parent:

"Hi, I'm officer Coloradokevin. I was sent out here to do a welfare check by a social worker who is concerned because someone told her that your teenager has unsupervised access to a pellet gun. Whether or not you allow that to be the case isn't really any of my concern, just so long as your kid isn't doing anything stupid with the pellet gun. Please be sure your son knows that it is illegal to discharge a pellet gun outside within city limits. Have a nice day". There was a bit more dialogue involved, but that was the basic gist of the conversation. Heck, I've had access to a pellet gun since I was 6 years old!

The social worker in that case complained on me and my partner because we didn't "search the house". Whatever. I could care less if a teenager has access to a pellet gun, just so long as they're being responsible with it (and we had no reason to believe otherwise).

Again, social services is out of control these days. I sometimes end up sideways with these folks in the course of doing my job, but I don't report to them. I've had several of them get pushy with me during child abuse investigations, and tell me that they "need" me to place the child in protective custody and write up a report about it (in cases where abuse really wasn't present). Guess what? I certainly have the authority to place a child in protective custody, but unless that social worker is carrying a signed court order to take custody of the kid (as they sometimes do), then I'm going to be the one making that judgment call, not them.

I mention all of this because I sometimes see younger officers falling into the trap of doing whatever the social worker tells them to do. Some of these guys need to take a step back and remember that just because someone else in a county agency is requesting something, doesn't mean that they have any authority to make it happen.

Shadow 7D
March 20, 2013, 05:34 AM
Also, legally in many states DYFS are not allowed to be photographed or recorded.


Public official in public performing public service, believe the Supreme Court had something to say about that (as in NO RIGHT TO PRIVACY)

That said, I have had contact with them, got a call on Friday from a supervisor, who had questions (and he was informed I was recording the call)
the gist was someone reported that my kid was being taken care of (that actually was the complaint, that I let a family friend, who happened to be working hold my son while my wife dealt with something and I dealt with the baby) That the complaint could only be called in by 5 people, involved HIPAA information and the only person who could have called was the state worker, violating HIPAA...

it got filed in the trash, in these there are rarely good outcomes once you are in the system, many social workers seem to go for the low hanging fruit. If you are contacted by them, know your rights and call an attorney, because the only way you can really beat a children services case is for it never to be started. Sad but true.

Ehtereon11B
March 20, 2013, 07:47 AM
Read that article off my FB feed this morning. It didn't surprise me at all when I saw it was in New Jersey. That state is a lost cause when it comes to RKBA.

Shadow 7D
March 20, 2013, 08:22 AM
Wasn't NJ the place where the Neo Nazi kids were removed because they named the boy Adolf and the court found that raising them as Nazi's would be 'harmful' to the kids?
BTW, except for ideology, NO ABUSE...

statelineblues
March 20, 2013, 09:12 AM
Lived in NJ for close to 20 years.

DYFS (Division of Youth and Family Services) is the 1000 lb gorilla in NJ. Once you are on their radar you will never be left alone.

The Police going with is standard when requested
Police assistance is almost always requested with welfare checks in NJ.

The lawyer mentioned in the story, Evan Nappan, is the authority on gun laws in New Jersey. He published a great book regarding NJ Gun Laws.

The one thing the NJ gov worker bees can't handle is a citizen standing up to them. They expect everyone to roll over and play dead...

TenDriver
March 20, 2013, 09:35 AM
I have an uncle who lives in NJ and went to visit him once a year during my teen years. Always enjoyed watching trains on the NEC line and going to the NYC airports to watch the airplanes. These experiences helped form who I am today in more ways than one.

After the first couple of trips up there I began to notice you couldn't do as much there as I could at home. A walk ON the train tracks usually elicited a visit from a local cop, who invariably had an attitude and wanted to teach me a lesson. It seemed every few miles on the Turnpike I'd see a State Police car. At home I could make the 290 mile drive to my grandparents and see one local police car the entire trip. Occasionally a State Trooper on the 360 mile drive to the beach. No thank you....

The situation this family in is regrettable and undeserved, but not unexpected in today's morally bankrupt society. This type of response could have happened anywhere. Even here in AL. I had a picture of my son sitting in my lap "driving" the car (back country road near the lake in the middle of the week.) My friend's girlfriend put a picture of it on her Facebook page, and before we had finished the hour long drive home I had two calls from people warning me to get it off the internet and another from my screaming wife wanting to know what I was doing.

BBQJOE
March 20, 2013, 11:05 AM
The situation this family in is regrettable and undeserved, but not unexpected in today's morally bankrupt society. This type of response could have happened anywhere. Even here in AL. I had a picture of my son sitting in my lap "driving" the car (back country road near the lake in the middle of the week.) My friend's girlfriend put a picture of it on her Facebook page, and before we had finished the hour long drive home I had two calls from people warning me to get it off the internet and another from my screaming wife wanting to know what I was doing.
^^^^This.
There is a picture that's been on the net forever. It's a baby duct taped to a wall, along with her stuffed duck.
I thought it was funny, and posted a print out of it on the wall in my business. (The child is in no danger)
A woman saw it, and thought it was funny too. She took a picture of the picture and emailed it to her daughter, who she thought would think it's funny.
The daughter did think it funny, and posted the pic on her FB page.

The daughter got into an argument with a co-worker about something. The co-worker got pissed, called CPS, and alerted them of the photo saying it was this person's kid, and the investigation started.

At one point CPS in WA state contacted the authorities in AZ, and they came to my business to see if indeed this is where the whole thing started. Of course they had to take pictures of the picture too.

I came to find out that it all got worked out, but it wasn't easy for anyone.

Case in point, be very careful of what you post anywhere on the net. This was all in fun, yet someone had some real nightmares to deal with over it.

c1ogden
March 20, 2013, 11:30 AM
I'm disappointed in the actions of the cops. While the one article quotes the victim as saying that the police acted "professionally" they clearly did not. They may have been polite and maybe that's what the victim meant but allowing the DYFS thugs to bully the victims was an absolute failure in the cop's duty to protect the victims. Even allowing the DYFS people to refuse to provide thier identification was a failure on the part of the cops. Whenever I was the escorting officer on these types of calls I always obtained full identification from all of the people I was escorting as well as a breifing on the reason for the "visit" before allowing them to approach the person or residence in question. I have only once seen a state employee refuse to give proper identification to a subject but she did reluctantly produce it when I ordered her to do so and that is what the cops in this incident should have done.

12many
March 20, 2013, 01:08 PM
ColoradoKeviin and C1ogden. I am glad there are police officers like you out there. Police have a tough job and it is just going to get harder as this type of stuff become more common. Seems like not only the people need policing but also some of the government employees.

sota
March 20, 2013, 01:14 PM
story's been making the rotation on news12.
if someone can get in touch with the person in question, tell them they should call news 12 and straighten out some of the "facts" in the story. on a good note, their facebook page appears to have mostly positive response to the event... good dad, good trigger dicipline, bad gov't, etc.

Blackstone
March 20, 2013, 01:28 PM
Too many busybodies around these days

Carl N. Brown
March 20, 2013, 01:34 PM
This story is everywhere!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/19/sean-moore-facebook-gun-photo_n_2910779.html
Wayne Parry, "Sean Moore Says NJ Child Welfare Agency Overreacted To Facebook Photo Of Son Josh Holding Rifle", Huffington Post, 19 Mar 2013.

I think it's crazy. Shawn Moore gave his son Josh a .22 rimfire replica of an AR for his eleventh birthday. A photo of Josh posing with his rifle was posted on Facebook. Soon after, child welfare case workers and four police officers visited the Moore home, to inspect his gun safe and check the registration of his firearms. Moore said. "I said no; in New Jersey, your guns don't have to be registered with the state; it's voluntary." He asked one of the child welfare officials for her name and was refused. When he asked to see a warrant, they all went away. And, yeah, when they showed up he kept his lawyer on speakerphone through the whole thing.

HOOfan_1
March 20, 2013, 01:43 PM
I've had real firearms in my bedroom since I was 8 years old. My dad just happened to have taught me sine I was 4 year old how to handle and respect firearms.

TenDriver....I'll never forget a few years ago when a bunch of New Jersey cops were stopped in Virginia on I-81 for going 95 mph...which is 30 mph over the speed limit. Some Jersey Sherriff called and complained that it was disgraceful for a LEO to stop another LEO even for endangering others...he then threatened revenge and reports to National Sherriffs association....he was pretty disgraceful and that is a window into the mentality of New Jersey's government.

Bubbles
March 20, 2013, 02:27 PM
I'll never forget a few years ago when a bunch of New Jersey cops were stopped in Virginia on I-81 for going 95 mph...which is 30 mph over the speed limit.
It's also reckless driving in VA, which is a Class I misdemeanor.

My daughter like snakes as pets (ball pythons, red-tail boas, kings, etc). None are "hot", aggressive, or have shown the slightest inclination to nip even when shedding. There are pics of her with her with her snakes on facebook, and occasionally we get a ninny blasting us for letting our daughter play with "dangerous animals". :rolleyes:

HOOfan_1
March 20, 2013, 02:33 PM
Humans are the most dangerous animals ever known

Ankeny
March 20, 2013, 02:42 PM
What a damn country. I look at it more as one moronic state employee. We all have the option of getting out, but I am not ready to pack my bags and leave the country.

EHL
March 20, 2013, 02:47 PM
This could happen to any one of us.

My 4 year old recently came home with a note from his teacher that indicated that he "has been spoken to several times before about his playing 'guns' with his friends, and asked not to do so...." The letter goes on saying that our assistance would be greatly appreciated in us instructing him not to play 'guns' anymore while at school.

Now this had me curious as to what the context was of WHEN, my son was playing 'guns' with is friends. If he were playing 'guns' or whatever other game he might want to play during learning time or anytime the teacher is trying to direct their classroom, then I would support correcting my son in his disrupting the classroom with his playing, guns or whatever he might want to play at the time. However, if this were merely a veiled attempt at stifling a child's fascination with firearms, then I would take issue with that. My sons live in a home where firearms are kept, and are for the defense of the family. They see their father and mother cleaning, handling, training with them and they obviously are fascinated by these objects that command even the respect of their own parents. However, his teacher did not consider this, and deemed it necessary to send a not home to let us know that this type of play would not be tolerated.

I called the school and asked to speak with the principal. They gave me the runaround and told me that they would pass on the message to him and that he would get back with me on this issue.

I have yet to hear from them. These kinds of intrusions and intolerance for gun owners sharing with their children respect and appreciation for the blessings of firearms ownership, have indeed become the norm. Expect more of these types of infringement to be executed on law abiding citizens everywhere.

tuckerdog1
March 20, 2013, 03:13 PM
So if he doesn't submit to her demands, demands she has no right to make, she threatens to abuse her authority and take his children:fire: As soon as he calls her bluff, she turns and bolts. At the very least, she needs to be fired.

I understand the need to protect childern from abusive parents. But these agencies have been given way too much power. And they seem to revel in abusing it.

A friend made his daughter do her homework when she didn't want to. The next day at school, she commented to her teacher that she "hated" her Daddy. No reason given or ask for. Next thing my friend knows CPS ( child protective services ) is at his door threatening to take his kids. Had to spend thousands in attorney fees, take ploygraphs, go to counciling sessions. It dragged on for 6 months.

Tuckerdog1

TenDriver
March 20, 2013, 04:01 PM
This could happen to any one of us.

My 4 year old recently came home with a note from his teacher that indicated that he "has been spoken to several times before about his playing 'guns' with his friends, and asked not to do so...." The letter goes on saying that our assistance would be greatly appreciated in us instructing him not to play 'guns' anymore while at school.

Now this had me curious as to what the context was of WHEN, my son was playing 'guns' with is friends. If he were playing 'guns' or whatever other game he might want to play during learning time or anytime the teacher is trying to direct their classroom, then I would support correcting my son in his disrupting the classroom with his playing, guns or whatever he might want to play at the time. However, if this were merely a veiled attempt at stifling a child's fascination with firearms, then I would take issue with that. My sons live in a home where firearms are kept, and are for the defense of the family. They see their father and mother cleaning, handling, training with them and they obviously are fascinated by these objects that command even the respect of their own parents. However, his teacher did not consider this, and deemed it necessary to send a not home to let us know that this type of play would not be tolerated.

I called the school and asked to speak with the principal. They gave me the runaround and told me that they would pass on the message to him and that he would get back with me on this issue.

I have yet to hear from them. These kinds of intrusions and intolerance for gun owners sharing with their children respect and appreciation for the blessings of firearms ownership, have indeed become the norm. Expect more of these types of infringement to be executed on law abiding citizens everywhere.

I've got a little one the same age who goes to a peace loving Montessori school. I expect a gun lesson every time I show up. Funny thing is mine has been taught that a rifle is a rifle, a pistol a pistol, and a shotgun a shotgun.

gym
March 20, 2013, 04:09 PM
We need to take people like this to task.They must be sued, fired, or at least a public apology should be issued and letter must be written so that the people who hired her will get the message that this kind of behavior is not acceptable.
Please post the name and email etc, of the agency that took this case to this level, I will be happy to write them a letter, expalining that this is just unnacceptable behavior and won't be taken lightlly. If you chose not to, I understand, but all of this harrassment has to stop. Going after law abiding citizens is just unacceptable for any agency.
Why don't they go after welfare mothers who use their debit cards in casinos, and cruise ships, and refuse to take drug tests, instead of wholesome Americans exercising their legal rights.

readyeddy
March 20, 2013, 04:19 PM
Facebook is not for me. Facebook users tend to want as many "friends" as possible, so when friend requests are made, you can either alienate people by refusing their "friendship" or you can allow people you barely know to inspect personal details about your life. Once you invite enough "friends" into your life, it's just a matter of time until you run into one or more of the nut jobs that seem to infest our world.

So to me it doesn't really matter if we are able to educate people about guns. If you open your self to a large group of people, you will eventually run into toxic individuals.

herkyguy
March 20, 2013, 04:30 PM
saw this on the news this morning. it could have gone A LOT worse. he stood his ground and i was happy to see it worked out, but he could have ended up in a bad spot.

check mark next to new jersey when it comes to places i NEVER want to live.

Arbo
March 20, 2013, 04:39 PM
I wrote about this story this past sunday. Glad to see it's gathered a lot more attention and is gaining ground.

http://www.downwardslide.com/he-stood-his-ground-harassed-by-police/?fb_source=pubv1

Gallstones
March 20, 2013, 04:54 PM
I'm not saying it is wrong to teach the young to shoot and respect firearms by any means, I'm all for it.
I'm all for anyone owning any type of firearm they want.
I don't think we should back down on anything concerning any of our rights,
But would you, right now, publish a list of every firearm you own, including serial numbers in a post on facebook?

Given the current temperature of society right now, I don't believe that would be a smart thing to do.

Given the fact that a child recently went into a school and shot up a bunch of children, I personally don't think I'd be blasting the internet with a picture of my kid holding and/or shooting an evil black gun. It just doesn't seem like a brilliant idea, unless you're looking to catch some flak, and get your kid on some not allowed to go to school list.

Yeah it's not right, but the facts, and the reactions right now speak for themselves.

No, I wouldn't publish that information anywhere. I have no pictures of any guns that I own or of myself or my son shooting them. And for the record, I don't even own any firearms.

So move along, nothing to see here.

Tom from WNY
March 20, 2013, 04:56 PM
I would expect nothing less from anywhere in NJ. I remember back in the early 1990's when I routinely worked hazmat jobs, driving home in Pemberton Twshp. late one Wed. night from site to hotel. I was not speeding, as I was dead tired, wanted a shower and supper and a warm bed.

I was pulled over by a NJ Trooper. I had committed the heinous crime of flicking my Pall Mall (I smoked filterless at the time, because they biodegraded. EPA greenery, you know.) butt out the window and was about to be taken down like a felon for littering. On the lower left hand corner of my pickup cap's window was an NRA decal, along with my Rod & Gun club decal/parking pass. The first question from the Trooper was "Got any guns in there, you know the gun laws in New Jersey are different from New York!" (At that time it was quite true. We NY'rs could have pistols with hollowpoints, EBR's with pre-ban mags and no registrations, basically only a excessively bureaucratic handgun license/registry.) I was somewhat stunned by his initial line of questions; usually the first thing is "License and Registration; please."

After threatening to arrest me for misdemeanor littering the next time he saw me flick a butt, ran my license and plate, and lectured me for a while, I was let go.

NJ was not a state I returned to or wished to return to after that.

Gallstones
March 20, 2013, 04:57 PM
Without credentials to verify that the woman is who she says she is, we don't know if she is a Social Worker. She could be some anti-gun activist making a play at harrassing somebody and hoping to get damaging information on these parents.
Desparate but possible.

ATBackPackin
March 20, 2013, 06:34 PM
I would imagine that the LEO's would have verified that she is who she says she is before escorting her to someone's house. I would hope they would anyway.

My biggest peeve is what does the contents of his safe have to do with the safety of his children? Also I would like some clarification on who was demanding to see the contents of his safe and who said he was being unreasonable.

I would also like to know what the allegations were to deem this sort of action necessary.

I won't hold my breath.

Shawn

Ryanxia
March 20, 2013, 06:37 PM
Sorry, but this is the wrong way to look at it. Dead wrong. Generations of American youths were introduced to firearms at a young age and taught to shoot by their parents or grandparents. My dad bought me my first rifle, a .22 Browning T bolt, when I was five. Of course, I was only allowed to handle it when he was around, but it was "mine." I had my first BB gun not long after that, and I was allowed to roam the neighborhood with it. This was a normal part of growing up in this country. There is nothing wrong with this.

The whole attitude that "well he opened himself up to this," smacks of defeatism, and of yielding the argument to the antis that guns aren't appropriate for small children, even with strict and responsible adult supervision.

Well, sorry, but I for one will not yield that point. Guns are appropriate for young shooters, when responsibly supervised. Moreover, it's necessary to introduce young shooters to the sport, inculcate enthusiasm for shooting sports into them, and get them used to living with and being responsible around guns, so that they can become responsible adults who will safeguard their rights under the second amendment, and feel a duty to do so.

When stories like this come along, we need to push back hard. They need to think it's raining hammers. That kind of hard. It's the only way we'll ever retake the culture and stop the trend the antis have been promoting for decades to marginalize gun owners and reduce us to a fringe element, regarded with suspicion by the mainstream of society. For my money, that means not just publicizing it when overzealous government flunkies exceed their authority like this, but holding them accountable, and suing if there's ground for every abuse that rises to a sufficient level.
Hear Hear! Well said.

sota
March 20, 2013, 06:47 PM
more and more this convinces me I need to install security cameras, especially ones at the front door to photograph persons there. it would make it much easier to help identify such persons who attempt abuse of their position.

berettaprofessor
March 20, 2013, 06:59 PM
Turns out the father won't be charged. See link below.

http://news.yahoo.com/no-charges-case-nj-boy-pictured-gun-211243222.html;_ylt=Av83w.k3mqb.Ex3GyBeJXk8JVux_;_ylu=X3oDMTIxaWw5MG51BG1pdANBVFQgV2lkZ2V0cm9uIEhvbWUgMDMyMDEzBHBvcwM1BHNlYwNNZWRpYUF0dFdpZGdldHJvbkFzc2VtYmx5;_ylg=X3oDMTFpNzk0NjhtBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3NlY3Rpb25z;_ylv=3


As I said in starting a separate thread, I'm relieved because I fear for the safety of the idiot social worker who tried to push this issue.

vtail
March 20, 2013, 07:07 PM
Thank goodness the kid didn't pose next to a tank or a piece of artillary at a military museum. The father could have been executed. :banghead:

RetiredUSNChief
March 20, 2013, 07:53 PM
Thank you coloradokevin and c1ogden for both your service and your perspectives. They are both enlightening and heartening.


Life, unfortunately, is full of rude, crude, and socially unacceptable people, some of which are complete...er..."rectal orifiaces". The rectal orifice types are out for confrontation using their positional authority in a way which is flagrantly abusive and totally uncalled for.

Though such things are unfortunate and some people end up caught up in the consequences, I'm thankful that these types of people are NOT the norm. Though some agencies and such seem to have more than their fair share of them, it seems.


I just had a Ship's Duty Officer go totally ballistic with me on a routine matter in the shipyard (I'm a retired Chief Petty Officer and I now work as a civilian employee in a government shipyard). Unfortunately for him, he chose both the wrong person to start yelling at and the wrong crowd to start doing it in front of. (His own XO and a high ranking shipyard official witnessed the entire thing.)

I didn't have a chance to make matters worse by laying into him verbally...his own XO stopped it and, before I knew it, I was dealing with another person who relieved him as Ship's Duty Officer. This is rare...when an officer's chain of command is not willing to stand behind one of their officers and instead takes action to immediately relieve him of his duty, it indicates that they clearly believe he's completely overstepped his bounds.

Sometimes circumstances actually conspire FOR us when these things happen. But we can better our odds by standing firm on our rights and in doing so with as wide and receptive an audience as we can get at the time. Having dealt with DSS before in my first marriage, I can say that this is especially true of such agencies.

Deltaboy
March 20, 2013, 10:02 PM
Folks now days CPS Acts on every anonymous tip full Bore and truth be Damned.

Carl N. Brown
March 20, 2013, 10:18 PM
I photographed my grandson aiming a 20mm Oerlikon anti-aircraft gun on the deck of the battleship USS Alabama. Glad I didn't post it anywhere.

Tomcat47
March 20, 2013, 10:47 PM
My Son was issued a Lifetime Fishing and Hunting License from my Dad shortly after he was born, I Got Him a Chipmunk for his 4th Christmas. And obviously he was mentored by me and his grandfathers for many years. He is an Avid outdoors man at 24 years old.

This country has got to get its common sense back! :banghead:

First Thing I would do is move the Hell out of NJ! But with that said, states like these are the ones that need to work the hardest to remove politicians that promote and endorse such laws against them. ( And they are not even laws!! They Are AGENDAS!)

I also now see the purpose of FaceBook and it is obviously not Social Media.... More like Social Services and Law enforcement. We are getting very intruded upon and by 2015 there will be obamacare which will remove hippa laws and then we will have that to worry about!

sota
March 21, 2013, 07:22 AM
new12's online pole question was...
Should kids be allowed access to guns?
54% yes, under adult supervision
24% no, never
22% depends on the age and maturity of the child

A and C are the correct answers, and really should be combined. so 76% of people responding are smart, and 24% should be euthanized for brutal stupidity.

i'm actually surprised by the numbers.

also yahoo! news article, note the mostly positive responses/posts.

Yo Mama
March 21, 2013, 10:12 AM
Folks now days CPS Acts on every anonymous tip full Bore and truth be Damned.


They have to. It sucks, but please read my first post. They are legally at a severe disadvantage and constantly open to lawsuits. You also have mandated reporter laws that force people to report even if they are unsure. In AZ, we have 23 active lawsuits forcing operating proceedures that don't work.

Want to fix the problem? Start looking at involving yourself in legislation that will help CPS and not hinder them. Workers are scared to death, literally, that if they don't act on any tip that they will end up on the news, in court, fined, even jailed. They have no ability to defend their decisions in the public court of opinion.

ATBackPackin
March 21, 2013, 11:20 AM
They have to. It sucks, but please read my first post. They are legally at a severe disadvantage and constantly open to lawsuits. You also have mandated reporter laws that force people to report even if they are unsure. In AZ, we have 23 active lawsuits forcing operating proceedures that don't work.

Want to fix the problem? Start looking at involving yourself in legislation that will help CPS and not hinder them. Workers are scared to death, literally, that if they don't act on any tip that they will end up on the news, in court, fined, even jailed. They have no ability to defend their decisions in the public court of opinion.
I understand what you are saying, I really do. However there is nothing that anybody could say that would convince me that the reaction to a photograph was not a huge abuse of authority. There are other ways to investigate an allegation other than showing up on your doorstep at 9 PM with four police officers. I'm not upset because they are investigating an allegation, I'm upset with how they chose to investigate. Demanded to see the contents of his safe. Why? If they are in a safe then obviously there is no danger to any children. Then to top it all off, she refuses to show her credentials when asked for them.

Nobody is saying that Family Services are not needed, but surely you cannot justify these actions. Can you?

98C5
March 21, 2013, 11:30 AM
My thoughts:

ALWAYS carry a cell/smart phone with that has video capability. Any instance where it seems that these LE agency or any other gov agency wants to trample your rights, record it. This anti-gun agenda is being pushed too hard and too far. Stories like these need to be out there so other like-minded, pro-gun people can see what is happening in cities and small towns alike.

Once you start recording, the liberal media cannot spin it into a "disgruntled neighbor" or a "right-wing extremist". We all must be vigalant and saavy.

Shadow 7D
March 21, 2013, 12:30 PM
Its on NATIONAL MEDIA now, pretty impressive, talked to the PT tech at the VA, was running on a new channel, he basically said, how the hell, and how did it make national news... explained the story, birthday present part of a photo upload, reported to CPS and then the worker and 4 cops came knocking and the dad knew his rights... and how social media picked up on it. He said wow, I said, yeah, over a photo a boy doing everything right...

Yo Mama
March 21, 2013, 01:48 PM
I understand what you are saying, I really do. However there is nothing that anybody could say that would convince me that the reaction to a photograph was not a huge abuse of authority. There are other ways to investigate an allegation other than showing up on your doorstep at 9 PM with four police officers. I'm not upset because they are investigating an allegation, I'm upset with how they chose to investigate. Demanded to see the contents of his safe. Why? If they are in a safe then obviously there is no danger to any children. Then to top it all off, she refuses to show her credentials when asked for them.

Nobody is saying that Family Services are not needed, but surely you cannot justify these actions. Can you?


Sure I can :). When the tip was made, the d bag lied. Happens all the time. I'm sure there was more information annonymously provided. CPS specifically asking to see the safe makes me think there was some information centering on access.

Not showing a badge will get her trouble. No excuse here for that. I also still think it's excessive for 4 Officers to have escorted the worker. If there is that big of a threat they would have used SWAT.

ATBackPackin
March 21, 2013, 02:07 PM
That didn't ask to see the safe. They wanted to see the contents and do an inventory of the safe. Huge difference.

Even if they decided to go the route they did, as soon as they saw the safe, they should have apologized and closed the case.

Yo Mama
March 21, 2013, 03:01 PM
That didn't ask to see the safe. They wanted to see the contents and do an inventory of the safe. Huge difference.

Even if they decided to go the route they did, as soon as they saw the safe, they should have apologized and closed the case.

Either way, we'll never know, unless it was public record. :) That's the best way for this stuff to never happen again.

My opintion is the case should have been immediately closed, but also that the father has a good case against the State, if he chooses, which I hope he does.

Creature
March 22, 2013, 09:20 AM
I photographed my grandson aiming a 20mm Oerlikon anti-aircraft gun on the deck of the battleship USS Alabama. Glad I didn't post it anywhere.

That is a ridiculously unnecessary statement.

Even if they decided to go the route they did, as soon as they saw the safe, they should have apologized and closed the case.

The sight of a safe doesn't necessarily mean there are guns locked up inside of it.

Tangent
March 22, 2013, 01:00 PM
The takeaway here (for me, at least) is know the law. Know your rights. This guy remained calm and (apparently) rational. This could have easily gotten out of hand, but it didn't because he was/is well aware of his rights.
Unfortunately, emotions are ratcheted up right now, and anti-gun people are not thinking logically. They are running with emotion and trying to persecute EVERYONE that deigns to "flaunt" their 2A rights by reporting things that "look" wrong. (I'm sure that's how they see it).
As a member of the Young Marines when I was ten years old, I was taught to shoot a .22 rifle (I'm 51 now). Being in that organization was a part of my growing up, moving from child to boy to man, and I was encouraged and applauded for it by parents, family and community. I even used to go to church in my uniform. LOL.
I don't think they have that anymore. They should. How times have changed.

Certaindeaf
March 22, 2013, 01:14 PM
If the young man was wearing a dress I'm sure they'd have given him a golden tiara instead of trying to destroy that family. just the way it goes I guess

Pilot
March 22, 2013, 01:18 PM
^^^^^ Yep. The world has certainly turned upside down, hasn't it?

krupparms
March 22, 2013, 03:26 PM
One if the first lessons I learned as a police officer was NO ONE, even police are above THE law! A few of our officers were smoking pot on duty! Were busted them ourselves & they were prosecuted & kicked out! More police should stand up &do the same! Crime is wrong &the police should arrest the police & any government agent that breaks the law! There are good P.O.s out there! But what good is that if the rest are breaking the law? I know of a case where a man was given 16 months for filming the police from across the parking lot! Be careful if you so that!

12many
March 22, 2013, 04:07 PM
My take way is that while bad things happen, what is bad here to me based the article I read is that there will not be any change in operation and CPS. There were defending the lady and saying the usual canned lines about we need to protect children and this is our job.

The government often acts badly but does not have any consequence or there is not change on their part. I would liked her boss to have said there would be some additional training or we are adjusting our policy.

biohazurd
March 22, 2013, 05:57 PM
That is some messed up stuff. I cant believe what is happening to are country....

HOOfan_1
March 22, 2013, 11:18 PM
One if the first lessons I learned as a police officer was NO ONE, even police are above THE law! A few of our officers were smoking pot on duty! Were busted them ourselves & they were prosecuted & kicked out! More police should stand up &do the same! Crime is wrong &the police should arrest the police & any government agent that breaks the law!

When I was searching up the story about the Jersey Police stopped doing 30+ over speed limit in Virginia I happened upon a police forum and the discussion was talking about how awful and disloyal it is to ever cite another officer of the law.....some in the thread disagreed...but the overall sentiment was that first responders should be given more leeway....needless to say as a rabid egalitarian I was less than impressed.

Shadow 7D
March 23, 2013, 01:23 AM
Reminds me of the testing for the local PD, in the first part, you take a battery of standard tests, about 5 are specific, one is actually do you show police ID when pulled over for rolling a stop sign (you stop for a stopsign, then immediately pull out and turn right....)

question is how to combat it, very 'us/them'

Strange Bob
March 23, 2013, 02:26 AM
That is a ridiculously unnecessary statement.






No, it is not, but yours is!

Folks post things that are sometimes obtuse to some, but clear to others. He was simply accentuating absurdity (the subject of this thread) by posting absurdity. A clear form of communication for abstract thinkers. Thanks for your understanding!

Hope there is some remedial training required for this field worker for Social Services on how to treat those that pay your salary. Her visit may have been necessary but her attitude and behavior were way out of line!

paintballdude902
March 23, 2013, 02:47 AM
when i was in 3rd grade my parents had a social worker come to the house because i missed 12 days of school in one semester. IIRC 3 were for a death in the family and 6 in a row were because i was sick with a nasty flu bug i couldnt shake. it happened again my freshman year when i got mono...(hush) its stupid

Cryogaijin
March 23, 2013, 07:41 AM
I've had something somewhat similar happen with my godson. Tiny bit of history, Loch got to be my godson because I was the only person that stood by his Mother when she was gestating. Everyone else was pro-abortion. (I told her "You have 3 options. It isn't my place to tell you what to do, but regardless of your choice I'll do whatever I can to help." Mostly she just needed a ride to and from her prenatals and some cheering up on a couple occasions.)

Anyhow, Loch's parents were never together, it was a "friends with benefits and breeding privledges" situation that didn't last through the gestation period, much less the first couple years of the kid's life. Fortunately, however, both parents want to be part of his life. And both are pretty much idiots. (Of the no-common sense kind, not the low-IQ kind.)

Now this is in Alaska. Everybody has guns up here. Except the mother, who moved up from Chicago. She realized that Loch was going to need to know firearm safety; when he was with his dad, there were guns in the house, and no gunsafes or locking cases.

She did not trust the father to teach him firearms safety, and she couldn't do it herself. So she gave me her blessing.
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af252/Eradikitten/target.jpg
He had a blast, followed every directive flawlessly, and can quote the 4 laws backwards and forwards, as well as making judgements on various scenarios as to if they comply with the laws or not. He's 7.

Unfortunately between the mother giving me her blessing and me actually taking Loch out, Daddy got into her head and started chanting the "guns are evil!" line. And she always was a daddy's girl. So fastforward to the most recent custody hearing. . .

". . . took him out to the gun range, and even gave him his own REAL gun! Here's a photo!"
"Looks like he's wearing eye protection, I assume he had hearing protection as well?"
"Yes sir."
"Sounds like it was done right. I approve."

Gotta love Alaskan judges. :)

Robert
March 23, 2013, 08:23 AM
Let's end this one on a high note.

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