357 Sig


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lpsharp88
March 20, 2013, 01:19 AM
I was reading this thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=706179) and this thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=625423) about camping/backpacking/hiking guns and only noticed 1 mention of a weapon chambered in 357 Sig being used. There were plenty of instances of varying calibers from 9mm on up to .44 special, I noticed a LOT of 10mm and .357 magnum. My question is, why is 357 Sig so infrequently used (according to the two threads I listed)? If it mirrors the performance of a .357 mag, but in an autoloader, it seems that it would be more commonly used. Also, is there a major difference between 10mm, .357 mag, and 357 Sig (performance, not cost wise)? Thank you!

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9mmepiphany
March 20, 2013, 01:42 AM
First the name of the cartridge is 357 SIG, there is no decimal point in front of the 3

It is often stated that the 357 SIG is meant to replicate the performance of the .357 Magnum...this isn't completely true. It was designed to duplicate the performance of the 125gr JHP loading of the .357 Magnum...as that was the LE loading which had the best street record for one-shot stops.

While the 357 SIG's 125gr JHP loading is quite effective within it's design parameters, is very accurate, and reliable, most folks feel that a heavier bullet is preferred against threat that may be encountered while in the wilderness

lpsharp88
March 20, 2013, 01:45 AM
First the name of the cartridge is 357 SIG, there is no decimal point in front of the 3

It is often stated that the 357 SIG is meant to replicate the performance of the .357 Magnum...this isn't completely true. It was designed to duplicate the performance of the 125gr JHP loading of the .357 Magnum...as that was the LE loading which had the best street record for one-shot stops.

While the 357 SIG's 125gr JHP loading is quite effective within it's design parameters, is very accurate, and reliable, most folks feel that a heavier bullet is preferred against threat that may be encountered while in the wilderness
My apologies. I fixed the post

X-Rap
March 20, 2013, 01:52 AM
I feel no more alone in the wilderness with my G32 than I do with my AR. It's true that neither may be as robust as some but I am OK with either. There are no doubt better but they too come with sacrifice of weight or capacity.

armsmaster270
March 20, 2013, 01:58 AM
357Sig is actually a 125 grain 9mm slug.

postalnut25
March 20, 2013, 02:00 AM
The 357 Sig is not a bad round. It would be just fine for camping/hiking/backpacking.

However, I carry a M&P9 and a 1911 the majority of my time. Therefore, I would carry the same thing while engaged in outdoor activities. I am not going to have a seperate gun for every task. It gets a little silly. I am competent with those two platforms, so I stick with them no matter what I am doing.

9mmepiphany
March 20, 2013, 02:11 AM
My apologies. I fixed the post
I didn't mean it as a chastisement, it was just informational

ozarkhillbilly
March 20, 2013, 02:19 AM
The 357sig is a great round, but more expensive and a little harder to come by,so it is used less often. I love my Smith 686 but I would take 13 rds of 357sig in my 229 over it any day of the week.

kyhunter
March 20, 2013, 02:28 AM
I believe it has to do a lot with availabilty and cost as well. Its also a somehat more complicated cartridge to reload for due to setback issues (so ive heard).

A lot of people like 10mm cause its one of the hardest hitting readily available autoloaders. .357 mag and .44 mag are revolver cartridges and millions of people carry revolvers. Id go on a limb and say .357/.38 special is one of the most popular cartridges period.

9mm and .45 are go to standards for many popular guns and what a large portion of what people carry. You cant carry what you dont have and most people dont have a 357 sig.

willypete
March 20, 2013, 05:26 AM
It's more expensive, harder to get, and is in the middle ground of performance between hot 9x19 and mild .357 Magnum. 357 SIG usually ends up somewhere around 1350 fps with a 125 grain bullet, which is NOT the nominal performance of a .357 Magnum, unless you're shooting a 3" barrel. Another reason the 357 SIG can't really match up with the .357 Magnum is that its performance suffers when shooting heavier bullets (158 gr, 180 gr, 200 gr) which is where the .357 Magnum really starts to shine. Basically, with 357 SIG, you get a faster 9x19 with very little improvement on terminal ballistics, harsher recoil, lower capacity, more expensive ammo, which is more difficult to reload - if you're into that.

It's not a bad cartridge, it just does some things better than others and worse than others. Pick your poison. I think the reason the 357 SIG hasn't caught on more is that the areas of performance in which it excels are already covered by other cartridges which have been established for at least or almost a century.

beatledog7
March 20, 2013, 09:53 AM
The [no period here]357 Sig is becoming a favorite of mine. It is most commonly loaded with 124/5-grain JHP or flat-nosed bullets but can work with a range of weights: 90-147 grain.

MagnumDweeb
March 20, 2013, 06:36 PM
If it's not a .45 LC Keith Style 250 Grain LFN pushed to 1000 fps, or a .44 Magnum 320 Grain LWFN (Lead Wide Flat Nose) pushed to 1000 fps, it's not really a camping gun for me. For me, camping guns are anti-bear guns when they come to handguns.

gandog56
March 20, 2013, 07:10 PM
All a 357 SIG is, pretty much, is a 40 cal S&W case necked down to 9mm size. You can shoot a much faster bullet than a 9mm because you can load a lot more powder in it. Think of it as a 9mm on steroids. Because the parent cartridge is a forty Cal S&W, sever gun makers make models that will shoot both calibers with a simple barrel swap, even the same magazines are used. My SIG P229 has both barrels.

I'm wondering if it could be done with a parent 10mm case? Then you have a Supersteroid 9 ! For self defense in bear country I think bigger is better, though. 357 SIG is a fine home defense round, and I think quite a few cops use them. At least that is where I scarfed up quite a few free 357 SIG cases from, a part time police used practice range.

crazyjennyblack
March 20, 2013, 07:18 PM
gandog56 - They did make one. It's called 9x25 Dillon. And yes, it's a supersteroid 9. You can get barrels in that caliber for the Glock 20. The round used to be used in competitions, but I guess it gave some folks wrist problems when used a lot. Getting the ammo is pretty much a "you better load your own" affair.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9725mm_Dillon


As for the 357 Sig, if I was looking for something for bears, I'd want something a bit bigger. For coyotes, feral dogs, feral bipeds, and other woodsy encounters, the 357 would work great.

gandog56
March 20, 2013, 07:36 PM
One problem there, stud. I HATE Glocks! :cuss:

They do not make one single model pistol that feels good in my small, short fingered hand, and their grip angle seems wrong to me. I like a 1911 SO much better.

Both my 10mm pistols are 1911's, now show me who makes a barrel in that caliber for THEM! :cool:

9mmepiphany
March 20, 2013, 07:45 PM
I'm wondering if it could be done with a parent 10mm case? Then you have a Supersteroid 9 !
They did make one. It's called 9x25 Dillon
Yes, the 9x25mm Dillon is the 10mm case necked down to 9mm.

The point of the Dillon is to stuff it with slow burning powder, to make USPSA Major and even more important to produce a lot of gas to optimize the effectiness of the multi-port compensator.

The crack of the Dillon igniting is very impressive to say the least, but the gases caused the muzzle to hardly lift at all in recoil

Corpral_Agarn
March 20, 2013, 07:53 PM
357 SIG is one of my favorite cartridges for up in the woods because I get to have 11 of them on board and a spare 10 in my pocket. Also they are lighter to carry than 180gr .40 loads so that is nice. But like others have said, its no .357 Mag (especially in the heavier loadings)

They tend to be a little loud, recoil a bit (not uncontrollable), and produce a pretty cool muzzle flash (which may be bad at nighttime if you have to use it) but I have been impressed with its performance both on gel blocs and through barriers.
I often carry the Hornady xtp 147gr instead of the 124gr up in the hills though. On the tests that I found the 147 penetrates a few extra inches and expands to like .50 (or something like that: youtube vid (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4maUoXvAm-4))

Its a nice round, imho.

gandog56
March 20, 2013, 07:53 PM
Second question, anybody make standard reloading dies for it that don't cost an arm and a leg?

kyhunter
March 20, 2013, 08:15 PM
Hornady has a set for 60 dollars. Not cheap but not too awful bad. There are several brands that make them. Pick your flavor

jim243
March 20, 2013, 08:16 PM
I must have missed the 115 grain and 147 grain load data in my books for the 357 Sig. Truth be told, there are very few 9mm bullets that can be used with the 357 Sig. Because of the short neck on the case a round nose or standard hollow point can not be used with out bullet set back on that round.

In addition to the extra pressure from the round over and above what a 40 S&W will produce the blast from a 357 SIG is a lot noisier and flash like a cannon.

That is why they are less popular than you would think.

This is a 357 Sig

Jim

http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt284/bigjim_02/IMG_1492.jpg

jim243
March 20, 2013, 08:23 PM
reloading dies for it that don't cost an arm and a leg?

Yes, Lee or you could just purchase mine, I do not use them (PM me)

Jim

beatledog7
March 20, 2013, 11:49 PM
Yes, you do have to be careful in selecting bullets for 357 Sig, but I'm not prepared to agree that "very few 9mm bullets" can be used. I select bullets whose bearing surface will be in contact with the neck interior over the neck's entire length, so lead bullets, with their lube groove, are pretty much out. I've learned from threads here (though I was at first skeptical of this) that using a slow powder which "fills" the case seems to support the bullet and helps ward off setback. AA#9 pretty much does this at book load levels and is a 357 Sig crowd favorite, though I'm finding the faster burning HS-6 to be more accurate.

I have successfully loaded and fired 124-grain XTPs seated to OALs of 1.140" to 1.162" with no discernible setback issues (Lone Wolf G31 barrel in G22 Gen4). Over the weekend I loaded a few 100-grain plated flat nose "380" bullets and a few with 147-grain XTPs, pretty close to the top and bottom of the bullet weight range. When I get a chance to hit the range I'll let you know the results.

PabloJ
March 21, 2013, 04:40 AM
That is what Virginia State Police are equipped with. I would not touch gun so chambered with flag pole. It's worth couple squirty ones over 7,62x25mm.

Bovice
March 21, 2013, 04:24 PM
Any flat nose 124 FMJ bullet works fine. Most bullets of that kind are plated and.not actually FMJ though, and plated bullets will not survive 357 SIG speed without being downloaded. Defeats the purpose of 357 SIG to do such a thing. So, I put nosler 124 JHPs in mine or hornady 124 grain XTPs. The bowlers seemed to work the best.

The blast is something to consider. Every time I shot it at the range, people were either intrigued or really agitated. I used it in IDPA once, that got a lot of surprised reactions. Shooting it between barrels rang my bell pretty good and I decided then that it wasn't going to be a first choice caliber, ever.

mdauben
March 21, 2013, 06:14 PM
I love my Smith 686 but I would take 13 rds of 357sig in my 229 over it any day of the week.
If my main concern was 2-legged predators, a semiauto in 357SIG (or 9mm, or .40S&W or .45ACP) would be my preference, too. If medium-large wild animals, on the other hand, were the problem I'd much rather have my 686 loaded with something like Buffalo Bore 180gr ammo. :)

Peter M. Eick
March 22, 2013, 09:05 AM
To answer the two questions, let me address the second. Yes there is a difference between the rounds. I can toss a heavier bullet out of my 10mm then I can from a 357 magnum at the same speed in the same barrel length. I can toss a heavier bullet out of my 357 Magnum then my sig in the same barrel length but it is closer. At around the same bullet weight they get reasonably similar but the 10mm still wins.

The first question, why is it not used more is an interesting one.

My opinion is that the 10mm and 357 sig are more gun and power than "most" shooters can handle well at full power loads. While the 10mm has more recoil, the 357 sig has more blast noise and this causes grief to most shooters. So being reasonable folks and not wanting to damage their psyche, they downplay the rounds and go for the 40 short and weak or the classic 45acp/9mm. These same folks will complain about the price of ammo and then pay boutique prices for 9mm +p+ and say it is "as good as" 357 sig.

This is why the 40 short and weak is popular and the 10mm is not, along with the 9mm is popular and the 357 sig is not.

My opinion only though. Your thoughts may be different.

As a reloader the sig is easy to load and uses cheap 9mm bullets. I am loading it today which is why I like it. Also I like the launching platform of the 229 Sport. The 10mm is just an easier round to pick up and load in the press than the 40 short and weak. For me, those are compelling enough reasons to like them both, let alone the known accuracy advantages of both rounds over their competition.

Elkins45
March 22, 2013, 09:29 AM
There are a couple of advantages of the 357 over its parent 40 S&W that I haven't seen mentioned yet. Because it's a bottleneck case it's feeding a smaller diameter bullet into a larger diameter chamber. This allows for most excellent feeding, and also means the chamber support doesn't have to be cut back hardly at all.

Spend much time on the internet and you'll see legions of stories about bulging brass (especially from Glocks) in 40S&W and even lots of kB stories. The G23 is almost legendary for this problem, but the equivalent Glocks in 357 SIG have much more chamber support and therefore don't ruin brass after one firing. I can't tell whether my 357 brass came from my Glock or my Sig.

beatledog7
March 22, 2013, 09:51 AM
Chicken or egg?

It seems more and more handgun shooters are reloading. There is little interest in reloading 357 Sig and 10mm compared to 9mm and 40S&W because the brass is relatively hard to find for free. OTOH, 357 Sig and 10mm brass is relatively hard to find for free because there is little interest in shooting those rounds compared to 9mm and 40S&W.

Pistols chambered in 10mm are intriguing to me, as is the reloading potential of the round, but they simply don't fit comfortably in my hand. The elongated grip required to accommodate the extra cartridge length is probably a deal breaker for many shooters who would otherwise like it.

The cost of ammo is a deterrent as well, just as it is for the 357 Sig.

Elkins45
March 22, 2013, 10:13 AM
OTOH, 357 Sig and 10mm brass is relatively hard to find for free

This is true, but bulk once-fired 357 brass is about the same price as 40S&W because of the number of law enforcement agencies that are using it. I see it being sold by a number of online sellers. The older I get the more I would rather just spend the $50-60 than bend over 1000 times to scrounge leftover cases from the range :)

Peter M. Eick
March 22, 2013, 12:15 PM
That depends on where you live.

http://eickpm.com/picts/range_brass1.jpg

Down here in texas both are reasonably common. Yes there is more 9 and 45 but at my range there is always 10 and 357 sig laying around. What is more interesting is things like 44 Automag show up occasionally or more exotic rounds. This is the build up of less than 1 hour of shooting.

Certaindeaf
March 22, 2013, 03:08 PM
It's essentially a 9mm +P+ minus 100 fps perhaps without the cost or other headaches.. the 9 will hold more, too. I wouldn't bother.

threefeathers
March 24, 2013, 04:03 PM
I have 4 handguns in 357 Sig and have found that it is easy to reload. That siad I use dedicated 125 grain 357 Sig bullets from Montana Gold, the same powder all the time and bell the case VERY little, A taper crimp is a necissity.

Dave P.
March 24, 2013, 04:36 PM
I had Glock 33 for a while and found the noise with full power loads to be
a issue. It worked well in every respect but I mostly shoot indoors and
the blast out of the short barrel was a pain.
Used it a class at a local indoor range, other shooters and instructors
asked if I had something else to shoot, I switched to my G36.
I sold the 33 pretty quickly, really didn't want to own one, just
tried it for a bit. For me I didn't see any advantage over a 9mm.
Might have been a different story with a longer barrel and shooting
outdoors at 50 yards or more.
Dave

silversport
March 24, 2013, 09:38 PM
I've always found it interesting when someone mentions that +P and +P+ is an improvement over standard velocity 9mm with just 100 FPS improvement for each step but 100 (or so) FPS improvement over +P+ is not worth the time or effort...

Bill

Rob G
March 24, 2013, 11:06 PM
It's essentially a 9mm +P+ minus 100 fps perhaps without the cost or other headaches..

I know the comparisons to 9mm +P+ are popular when this subject comes up but it always overlooks one key factor. +P+ is not a saami specification. It's generally intrepreted as meaning a higher pressure/faster velocity than +P but it isn't necesarilty either of those, or when it is there's no real way of knowing by how much it exceeds the +P standard. So really it's kind of iffy ammo which lies somewhere between kind of high pressure and way too high pressure to be safe. The 357Sig on the other hand throws the same weight bullet at roughly 50 to 100 fps faster without pushing the pressure higher than was originally intended. That's enough of a reason for me to go with it.

I also really like the inherent reliability of a bottle necked case and I love the overall balistics of the round. I shoot my handguns as far as 150 yards just for the fun of it and the 357Sig is the easiest round to do that with. I don't know that I'd use it specifically for woodland creatures but like somebody else said I don't have different carry guns for different purposes so someday I may find out how effective it is for that.

lpsharp88
March 24, 2013, 11:24 PM
Thanks for all of the answers!

Snowdog
March 25, 2013, 01:45 AM
My philosophy thus far with my M&P40 with Storm Lake 357Sig barrel is that when I feel the need... the need for speed (sorry, I had to), I figure I'll get the hottest stuff commercially available.

Currently, I carry Underwood 125gr Gold Dot 357Sig that achieves up to and over 1500 FPS from a 4" barrel. That's fairly hot, in my opinion and separates it squarely from the 9mm and even from standard 357Sig loads.

It's loud, yes. However, I don't feel the recoil to be a problem in the least.

Deputy25
March 25, 2013, 08:15 PM
I just chrono'ed a few rounds of my issue ammo, Speer 357Sig 125 JHP bonded. It is doing a shade over 1400 out of my issue Glock 31. That Underwood stuff must be pretty hot at 1500 with the same bullet.

Deaf Smith
March 25, 2013, 08:33 PM
It's essentially a 9mm +P+ minus 100 fps perhaps without the cost or other headaches.. the 9 will hold more, too. I wouldn't bother.
Not exactly unless you think a 125gr JHP at 1550 can be duplicated, minus 100 fps, by ANY 9mm load.

That is what Underwood 357 Sig gets from a Glock 31. No 9mm load from a Glock 17 can get anywhere near 1450. Even Doubltap 125gr 357 Sigs hit almost 1500 fps from a Glock 31.

Now my normal carry gun is a much modified Glock 26 in 9mm using Winchester +p+ 127 gr loads at 1240 fps but I do have and use Glock 27 and 33s (that is .40 S&W and 357 Sig) and the 'house gun' is a Glock 31 in .357 Sig!

Yes I love revolvers but I pack Glocks.

Deaf

Kachok
March 26, 2013, 02:59 PM
I like the idea of a 357 Sig but I am NOT a Glock fan, something about an unsupported chamber scares the goomba out of me. The reason the 357 Sig does not get the attention the 357 Mag does for protection in the woods is the lighter bullets used in the Sig, and to be honest even the 357 Mag is not highly regarded as a bear/hog stopper. IMHO "stoppers" start at 44 mag, anything large and mean enough to hurt me I want at leased a potent 44 cal with hefty bullets.

9mmepiphany
March 26, 2013, 03:35 PM
something about an unsupported chamber scares the goomba out of me.
:confused: :confused:

You have these in you :eek:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lwDSNkvCzeA/TJOuc-KclrI/AAAAAAAACcg/ymiSet5t-4o/s400/NSMBW_Goomba.jpg

Certaindeaf
March 26, 2013, 05:23 PM
Heh, at least someone has a sense of humor!

gandog56
March 26, 2013, 05:35 PM
I have all four, .357 Mag., 357 SIG and 40 S&W (Same pistol, SIG P229, just a barrel swap needed) and two 10mm pistols. I reload for all of them, and they all are similar in costs per round. So price or scarcity of store bought ammo doesn't matter.

Deaf Smith
March 26, 2013, 11:31 PM
I have all four, .357 Mag., 357 SIG and 40 S&W (Same pistol, SIG P229, just a barrel swap needed) and two 10mm pistols. I reload for all of them, and they all are similar in costs per round. So price or scarcity of store bought ammo doesn't matter.
No 10mm right now but I have the other three and yep, I reload my own!

I go shoot .40 S&Ws at the indoor range and it maybe cost a bit more than 9mm reloads and way less then what the other people pay!

Deaf

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