Straw purchase?


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Blackbeard
March 21, 2013, 09:32 PM
Ok, here's the situation. My buddy's FOID expired. He wants to go to a gun show in another state and maybe buy something. I understand that I can't fill out the 4473 and claim to be the actual buyer, because I'm not. However, if he fills it out and passes the check, and pays for it, can I take possession of it until he gets his FOID straightened out?

Seems like a bit of a legal minefield to me.

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alsaqr
March 21, 2013, 09:37 PM
However, if he fills it out and passes the check, and pays for it, can I take possession of it until he gets his FOID straightened out?


Better to steer clear of this land mine.

tyeo098
March 21, 2013, 10:25 PM
He can wait. It ain't worth some eager Chicago newly-barred lawyer to try and rip you a new one.

deadin
March 22, 2013, 12:13 AM
He shouldn't pass the background check. If he wants to buy a firearm while out of state, a long gun still need to go thru an FFL and the requirements are that the laws of BOTH states be followed., SO, no FOID, no pass. (A hand gun must go through a FFL in his home state. Same result, no FOID, no gun.)

CoRoMo
March 22, 2013, 10:48 AM
This is not a straw purchase but it is likely a violation of some other sort; probably only at the state level. I think deadin is right though, if the dealer sees that he is from Illinois then he could likely deny the sale without a FOID presented.

Sam1911
March 22, 2013, 10:53 AM
If he wants to buy a firearm while out of state, a long gun still need to go thru an FFL and the requirements are that the laws of BOTH states be followed., SO, no FOID, no pass. (A hand gun must go through a FFL in his home state. Same result, no FOID, no gun.)

BINGO!

If he can't buy a gun in HIS state, he can't buy a gun in another state. Whatever conditions apply to the sale at home (waiting periods, FOIDs, background checks, etc.) must be applied by the FFL dealer in the other state as well, even if that dealer's home state doesn't have such restrictions or conditions.

Frank Ettin
March 22, 2013, 12:43 PM
He shouldn't pass the background check. If he wants to buy a firearm while out of state, a long gun still need to go thru an FFL and the requirements are that the laws of BOTH states be followed., SO, no FOID, no pass. (A hand gun must go through a FFL in his home state. Same result, no FOID, no gun.)I also agree. The OP's friend needs to get his FOID situation worked out.

mgkdrgn
March 23, 2013, 07:57 PM
Ok, here's the situation. My buddy's FOID expired. He wants to go to a gun show in another state and maybe buy something. I understand that I can't fill out the 4473 and claim to be the actual buyer, because I'm not. However, if he fills it out and passes the check, and pays for it, can I take possession of it until he gets his FOID straightened out?

Seems like a bit of a legal minefield to me.
And the reason you desire to go hiking through a minefield is?

Arkansas Paul
March 23, 2013, 09:01 PM
No way I would do it. My gun rights are precious to me. I'm not risking them for anyone.

Art Eatman
March 23, 2013, 10:56 PM
Question answered. :)

ChaoSS
March 23, 2013, 11:21 PM
How much does it cost to transfer a gun in your state? Could you buy it and then sell it to him through an FFL?

Sam1911
March 23, 2013, 11:24 PM
Could you buy it and then sell it to him through an FFL?LOL! Not until he gets his FOID card sorted out again...which brings us right back to the original problem! :)

ChaoSS
March 23, 2013, 11:30 PM
But I thought that was the point, he wanted to take possession of it until he got his FOID card straightened out. So, I would suggest, instead of simple possession, be the owner until then, then transfer it through a dealer so that no one can say it was a straw purchase.


Little more expensive, but if it's something that is hard to find or whatnot....

Sam1911
March 23, 2013, 11:38 PM
Oh, I see. Technically adding the dealer into the mix doesn't make it more or less lawful (either the transfer is lawful or it isn't).

I don't see any way for there to be danger if the OP wanted to buy this gun -- and HE fill out the 4473, and pay for the gun himself. Then, later, when his buddy gets his FOID re-upped, he can sell the gun to his pal if he so wishes, following all their home state's laws for a private transfer (or an FFL transfer, if they want to for some reason).

The risk here is the OP somehow acting as the purchaser in the stead of his pal, or vice versa. That's where the straw purchase comes into play. Buying a gun, yourself (with your money, you fill out the paperwork) is perfectly legal, even if you think you might sell it later. That's not a straw purchase, and doing so once is also very unlikely to fall into the realm of dealing without a license.

mf-dif
March 23, 2013, 11:38 PM
The FOID card is required to even own a gun in IL. At any rate, it would be best to wait out the renewal.

This does make me think about guns as a gift though. During the holiday season I received a Henry catalog basically saying their rifles make great gifts. How does that work? Youre buying a firearm for someone still.

Sam1911
March 23, 2013, 11:41 PM
You may buy a gun as a GIFT for someone else. You are the purchaser. You fill out the 4473. You pay for the gun. You then give it to another person as a gift. The ATF specifically explains that this is perfectly lawful.

A gift is, however, still a transfer. If going across state lines, it has to go through an FFL dealer. If the giver and receiver are both residents of the same state you simply have to follow your state's rules (if any). In IL, an FOID is required.

Frank Ettin
March 24, 2013, 03:18 AM
...The risk here is the OP somehow acting as the purchaser in the stead of his pal, or vice versa. That's where the straw purchase comes into play. Buying a gun, yourself (with your money, you fill out the paperwork) is perfectly legal, even if you think you might sell it later...But here, as described by the OP he would not be buying the gun for himself. He would be buying the gun for the express purpose, by prior arrangement, of transferring the gun to his friend.

That means that the OP would not be the actual purchaser for the purposes of the 4473. He would be buying the gun, on half of his friend, as the agent or proxy of his friend. And that would make it an illegal straw purchase.

JRH6856
March 24, 2013, 05:28 AM
But here, as described by the OP he would not be buying the gun for himself. He would be buying the gun for the express purpose, by prior arrangement, of transferring the gun to his friend.

That means that the OP would not be the actual purchaser for the purposes of the 4473. He would be buying the gun, on half of his friend, as the agent or proxy of his friend. And that would make it an illegal straw purchase.

But only if he told someone what his intent was in buying the gun....oh wait. He posted it here so its a matter of public record. :banghead:

ChaoSS
March 24, 2013, 06:26 AM
That means that the OP would not be the actual purchaser for the purposes of the 4473. He would be buying the gun, on half of his friend, as the agent or proxy of his friend. And that would make it an illegal straw purchase.

And that wouldn't change, if he were to do the second transfer through a dealer, with the NICS check, and everything else, all on the up and up?

eastbank
March 24, 2013, 07:24 AM
can a man buy a firearm for a friend,both men can own a gun. both are not prohibited from owning,selling or buying. in the same state where its legal to for them to do so? i thought a straw purchase was when you were buying for a non legal prohibited person and knew it. eastbank.

alsaqr
March 24, 2013, 09:34 AM
i thought a straw purchase was when you were buying for a non legal prohibited person and knew it.

Ok, here's the situation. My buddy's FOID expired. He wants to go to a gun show in another state and maybe buy something.


The BATFE on straw purchases:

However, a straw purchase occurs even when the actual purchaser is not a prohibited person. The crime committed is knowingly making a false statement on the Form 4473 indicating that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser, when this is not the case.

http://www.atf.gov/training/firearms/ffl-learning-theater/episode-4.html

Sam1911
March 24, 2013, 11:12 AM
I completely agree with Frank's point, which is why I phrased my suggestion the way I did. IF the OP was to purchase that rifle for himself, even with the idea that he might sometime sell it off to his pal, I don't see how he could reasonably get into trouble. People buy and sell guns all the time. People buy guns with the intent of selling them later, and that's lawful to a degree. (The practical limits of that are always highly in question, but we're talking about ONE gun here.) The case, such as it would be, here would hinge on the problem that the buyer knew ahead of time who he planned to sell the rifle to. Obviously, he's not going to do that second transfer until sometime in the future when his buddy gets his FOID sorted out. The rifle is his to enjoy until such time as he decides to go ahead and sell it to his pal.

Or, avoid the problem altogether and just GIVE it to him. Don't accept money for it, call it a gift and you're good to go.

And that wouldn't change, if he were to do the second transfer through a dealer, with the NICS check, and everything else, all on the up and up?
Exactly so. "Laundering" it through an FFL doesn't actually change ANYTHING about this arrangement, except that there's a second 4473 form involved. Most folks would say that it is a protection against a charge of making a 'straw purchase' but I don't see how it is substantively different. If he's buying it FOR his pal -- to make a lawful transfer to his pal later on -- then there is no actual legal difference between making a lawful PRIVATE transfer or a lawful DEALER transfer. Which you choose doesn't change the reason or circumstances of the INITIAL purchase, and only the statement ("I am the buyer") on the original 4473 matters in terms of a 'straw purchase.'

Frank Ettin
March 24, 2013, 12:53 PM
..."Laundering" it through an FFL doesn't actually change ANYTHING about this arrangement, except that there's a second 4473 form involved. Most folks would say that it is a protection against a charge of making a 'straw purchase' but I don't see how it is substantively different...That's exactly right and an important point.

The "straw purchase" occurs when someone falsely claims on the first 4473 to be the actual buyer. That's the crime, and it occurs with the first 4473. Doing the second transfer on a 4473 doesn't "fix" the crime that has already occurred.

Blackbeard
March 24, 2013, 07:24 PM
Thanks for all the advice.

Under no circumstances would I falsely fill out a 4473 -- that wasn't the point of the question. I was postulating that the buyer could fill out the 4473 truthfully, but not take possession of the gun until he gets his FOID renewed. It's illegal to possess a firearm in Illinois without a valid FOID, but since the transaction would be out of state, he'd never have possessed it within Illinois. I didn't know if any FOID requirements were imposed outside of Illinois.

I think the only way it could work is to buy a long gun from an FFL in the other state, and then have me hold it until the FOID is straightened out. It wouldn't work with a handgun since the handgun has to be transferred via an Illinois FFL.

The sequence would be:

1. Buddy buys gun in neighboring state.
2. Buddy fills out 4473 as actual purchaser.
3. Assuming it's approved, he takes possession from the dealer.
4. Prior to reentering Illinois, passes possession to me (not ownership -- no money changes hands)
5. Buddy gets his FOID renewed
6. I bring Buddy his gun, which he is now legally able to possess.

Like I said, it's a legal minefield and I'm not willing to bet my freedom on guessing what it lawful and what isn't, so I've decided to sidestep the whole issue.

jj1962hemi
March 24, 2013, 07:39 PM
Blackbeard, I believe that if your buddy (unless he's an FFL holder) purchased the gun in another state (say Indiana), then brought it across any state line (much less to occupied Illinois) he would be breaking federal law. He could buy it, have it sent to an FFL in Illinois and held until he gets his FOID updated.

You could buy it in the other state, then ship it to an Illinois FFL, then pick it up yourself. You could then transfer it to your buddy (via sale or gift) ONLY when he has a current FOID card. I came across the first problem with an out-of-state relative wanting to buy a gun from me. It would have to go to his state's FFL as a transfer to avoid breaking the law. Welcome to 1984.

JJ

Blackbeard
March 24, 2013, 08:00 PM
Yep, see I didn't know about the transporting across state lines thing. So, hypothetically, the gun would have to be left with a friend in that state until FOID is cleared, and then Buddy would return to pick up his gun and transport it himself back to Occupied Illinois.

Why do things have to be so complicated?!?

Sam1911
March 24, 2013, 10:08 PM
Wait...hold on, just a point of order:

In general, if you find a LONG GUN you like in another state, you may purchase that firearm and have the transfer done (4473 form completed, etc.) at a dealer's place (or gun show) in that state and take it home with you. Whether the seller is a private individual or a dealer, the transfer has to be done through an FFL dealer. ***

If you find a HANDGUN (or "Other") you want to buy, either with a private individual OR a dealer, that has to be transferred to a dealer in YOUR state, and you must fill out the 4473 there.






*** -- So long as every relevant law of both your state and the state you're buying in are followed.

Sam1911
March 24, 2013, 10:12 PM
I was postulating that the buyer could fill out the 4473 truthfully, but not take possession of the gun until he gets his FOID renewed. It's illegal to possess a firearm in Illinois without a valid FOID, but since the transaction would be out of state, he'd never have possessed it within Illinois. I didn't know if any FOID requirements were imposed outside of Illinois.Again, for clarity -- he CANNOT make the transaction to begin with. If the out-of-state dealer is even willing to sell to someone from IL (and they may not want the hassle, period) they will not even start the paperwork without seeing his FOID card.

Doesn't matter what scheme you might come up with for "holding the gun for him" or whatever. (The dealer's just going to look at you with a VERY raised eyebrow and then ask you to leave.) He can't buy the gun. Period.

Frank Ettin
March 24, 2013, 10:22 PM
....I think the only way it could work is to buy a long gun from an FFL in the other state, and then have me hold it until the FOID is straightened out. It wouldn't work with a handgun since the handgun has to be transferred via an Illinois FFL.

The sequence would be:

1. Buddy buys gun in neighboring state.
2. Buddy fills out 4473 as actual purchaser.
3. Assuming it's approved, he takes possession from the dealer.
4. Prior to reentering Illinois, passes possession to me (not ownership -- no money changes hands)
5. Buddy gets his FOID renewed
6. I bring Buddy his gun, which he is now legally able to possess.

Like I said, it's a legal minefield and I'm not willing to bet my freedom on guessing what it lawful and what isn't, so I've decided to sidestep the whole issue....It's been too long a day, and I'm too tired, to want to detail everything that's wrong with that scheme. Pretty much all the answers have been touched on in this thread.

But Sam nailed the bottom line (my emphasis):Again, for clarity -- he CANNOT make the transaction to begin with. If the out-of-state dealer is even willing to sell to someone from IL (and they may not want the hassle, period) they will not even start the paperwork without seeing his FOID card.

Doesn't matter what scheme you might come up with for "holding the gun for him" or whatever. (The dealer's just going to look at you with a VERY raised eyebrow and then ask you to leave.) He can't buy the gun. Period.

So instead of wasting any more time or bandwidth trying to put lipstick on this pig, this thread is closed.

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